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I understand that a person should be trained to know what to happen when they get in the clinch. What I don't understand is why martial arts that purport to be about self defense deliberately seek the clinch. The clinch seems too committed to me; I like having the flexibility to punch or to throw depending what opportunities present themselves but in some arts (such as BJJ) they essentially run into each other's embrace in order to clinch as soon as possible it seems. What gives?
How can you throw without clinching?
maybe sweeps or a couple of overheads... or "non body contact throws"... but hardcore throws pretty much all come from the clinch. (At least out of what I know)
Its also a lot easier to go towards someone than to keep someone from comming towards you. Which would you rather be?
www.MarkNegron.com
buy the san da clinching DVD... all your questions will be answered :D
the clinch is the entry point to grappling - that's where the bjj player wants you. He wants to get inside your strikes so he can take you down.Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonM
Position first,action second....that's the way a BJJ thinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenStar
I train in wing chun and muay thai, but have crossed train in BJJ and have past experience with Shuia Jiao and chin na from shaolin styles...
There are times when I am overwhelmed with punches or strikes or whatever, and I also go to a throw, clinch, or takedown when that happens. I change the venue so to speak. And contrary to popular belief, grappling/clinching or what have you is a pretty safe spot as long as you're comfy there....and the guys you're talking about are.
I mix Traditional Wing Chun (William Cheung's version) with Catch wrestling - as a MMA...and the clinch is INDEED where striking and grappling meet - as 7Star alluded to.
You have to be able to fight in this range because it is where many takedowns and throws begin - and where much can be gained by elbow and knee strikes.
The first post on this thread seemed to suggest that it's possible to simply arbitrarily avoid this range - and stay at longer range with striking and kicking technique...
that scenario is not so realistic.
Sometimes the clinch is completely unavoidable (ie.- he skillfully rushed you)...and sometimes you may want to use it because it will give you an advantage.
You can also strike quite effectively from the clinch, while controlling your opponent's center.
Good skill - vital actually. Without it, you can't defend the takedowns to stay upright either...
Clinch roxors boxors.
I see the majority of karate techniques beginning at (the furthest - wtf is up with the text editor? I can't say far-ther!) arm's length. Meaning, I've been jumped, and could not avoid grappling. Therefore, I base my application on fighting from, to, and out of, the clinch. And as Merryprankster said, striking power is really suprising at this range.
I've only just recently started bag striking from clinch range, using karate stepping methods, and dayum, that's hard, working the technique against that much resistance from that close. I've really learned quite a bit about the role of the abdominals in the production of power, even for mostly vertical strikes.
If you can't fight out of the clinch, you're probably not going to be able to handle yourself against anyone with any type of experience, "official" or otherwise.
Fighting is about control. You control him, you beat him.
Throws, knees, elbows, dirty boxing, pummeling, snapdowns, pressure, driving someone into a wall.. are all mandatory skills for fighting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
Actually I very specifically did not say that. In fact I specifically said that I can understand why one would want to train for the eventuality of a clinch should one happen (I do that myself) what I questioned was the effectiveness of martial arts that depend overly much on the clinch because it can potentially be avoided and commits everything into one specific sphere of attack/defense strategy.
Avoiding clinch is a much harder skill to develop then clinching.
If you are trying to hit someone, and he is trying to hit you, you will be fighting at clinch range.
If you are trying to hit, and he is trying to clinch or ground fight, then you will fight at clinch range.
Unless you run away, out the door, over a fence, and into a car and drive away, you will fight in clinch range.
Or goto some sporting event that forbids or highly regulates what can happen in clinch range.
You probably cannont name any methods or styles or familys that dont fight or train fighting at clinch range, no matter what they call it.
:eek:
OK, for a third time I am not saying that you should not train in a clinch, I am saying that if a clinch can be avoided (and it can, trust me - my sifu trains both clinch, clinch breaking and clinch avoidance techniques relatively regularly) it should be and that I question the logic of martial arts that DELIBERATELY SEEK THE CLINCH IMMEDIATELY at the start of combat.Quote:
Originally Posted by yenhoi
Cause its a little easier and more realistic?
Which arts deliberatly seek the clinch and which dont?
All seek to dominate true fighting range (whatever you want to call it) - and that range is clinch range. Clinch is where fighting happens.
Everything else is running away, ballistic, or sport.
:eek:
How on earth do you expect to fight someone, and hit them hard enough to stop fighitng without entering clinch range?
:confused: :confused: :confused:
How do you train to stay out of clinch range without training clinch range???
:confused:
You seem to assume that the clinch is the only close-range strategy that works. Also you are obviously ignoring the fact that I have not ever said "don't train the clinch" I said "don't rush needlessly into the clinch".
"I am saying that if a clinch can be avoided (and it can, trust me...)" (SimonM)
HOW ABOUT telling us about it?
How do you (and your sifu) go about avoiding it?
Let's say your opponent is working to get it - as you're coming forward toward him with something....how do you go about stopping it?
For a high clinch attempt, duck and weave, throw a couple of defensive upper cuts and move back and to the side, attempt to flank.
For mid level clinch attempt I would be likely to attempt to avoid a full clinch with: Intercept his hands, redirect, drawing a flank if possible, elbow and escape.
For low shoot Step back and to the side, strike with hands, keep weight foreward enough to sprawl if he manages to spin and close.
These would be a few random avoidance techniques I would emply. Footwork is king.
Edit: of course as my concern with the clinch is it's tendency to limit options I would say that each of these techniques would be dependant on the style and skill of the opponent I was trying to face, I don't believe in any absolutes in fighting.
How different do you gentlemen see "bridge-stick/strike" techniques to cinching?
Bridging usually involves active grabbing, and overbearing, sticking, tangling, chum lik, however you implement it.
I see a lot of common ground between the two. Half grappling, half striking, but maintaining contact full-time, and exerting force into your opponent trying to keep them off balance, or off centre.
Obviously, there's a difference between gloved and un-gloved cinching.
moving to the clinch is just another way of doing things. It is no more or less valid than trying to keep out of it.
it's one more range that you gotta deal with. Better to work with as many ranges as you can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonM
This is what we're failing to see... where is the limitation? That is where I would prefer to be, as I can strike you AND I have control of you. I'm actually more limited outside of clinching range, as i can't throw you from punching or kicking ranges.
The limitation is clear through the process of discourse. What I see as close range, you see as clinching range. I prefer to be in and out, do the damage and back off quick. Clinching is antithetical to that method so I see it more as an eventuality to train for than something to seek.
in which case, it's only a limitation to you, given your fighting preference. I prefer to be on the inside of my opponent, where I can hook, knee, uppercut, etc. I can also throw and takedown from that range. So to me, that range is ideal. It seems that what you are talking about is just a matter of perpsective.
:D You can take down from very long range with a little help from Mr Brick Wall and a standard ward off. But then I guess most fight rings don't give you brick walls to smack people with.
Anyway my shift is over and I am going home to practice so I will bid you all good evening if anyone cares enough about this thread to continue it I'll check it out in a few days otherwise it's been a fun little argument. :D ;) :p
Goodnight.
"This is what we're failing to see... where is the limitation? That is where I would prefer to be, as I can strike you AND I have control of you. I'm actually more limited outside of clinching range, as i can't throw you from punching or kicking ranges."
Gee Seven, you're starting to sound like someone familiar...
Look, define clinch. The clinch, any clinch done well gives you a beat that you can use, relatively free from most of the pummeling weapons. "Clinching" in all it's varieties is a great strategy, especially if you don't just sit there. Which is where the confusion might come from. The clinch is not the destination, just the exit ramp.
Bridging is being largely overlooked - while a lot 'classical' bridgeing that you see is pretty useless in a Western boxing dominated environment, those same principles can be modified (or used directly in the case of Kun Tao or SPM) to deal with the WB environment.
Feel free to spin out on this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeySlap Too
:D
speaking of which, did you know that you're standing in my space?
For a high clinch attempt, duck and weave, throw a couple of defensive upper cuts and move back and to the side, attempt to flank.
For mid level clinch attempt I would be likely to attempt to avoid a full clinch with: Intercept his hands, redirect, drawing a flank if possible, elbow and escape.
For low shoot Step back our clinch defense methods are and to the side, strike with hands, keep weight foreward enough to sprawl if he manages to spin and close.
Your clinch defense methods are being trained and executed in clinch range. Your clinch fighting. You fall into the category of purposely fighting in the clinch.
Truely avoiding the clinch would be stepping away and kicking. And even then your foot/leg/knee/etc could e grabbed.
:eek:
Wow, really, maybe in all seriousness you really Do need to look at my clinch DVD..Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonM
how are you gonna duck and weave out of a double neck tie, an underhook or a Japanese tie up??
Clinch is about control, that's been said, once you have control, you can hit, you can throw or you can escape... but I'm seeing some very serious lack of understanding of REALITY in this thread....
hmmm, shaolin does long, medium, and short range techniques. there are a couple ways out of the clinch that were shown in sifu ross's dvd. and there are other chin na ways too.
ways out? of course there are, and many ways are ON the dvd in fact, but ducking is the #1 way NOT TO get out of the double neck tie and the reason is pretty clear on my DVD for example. How are you gonna uppercut when I've wrapped up both of your arms???
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonM
I question the logic of spending all your time training to avoid something that is far easier to enter than it is to avoid, rather than training to take advantage of that fact.Quote:
and that I question the logic of martial arts that DELIBERATELY SEEK THE CLINCH IMMEDIATELY at the start of combat.
Ya, and what are the limitations imposed on your "fighting style" by the clinch? If anything you gain the opporatunity to directly control and manipulate the opponent as opposed to only indirect control offered by having no contact and trying to "be in and out."
:confused: :eek: :confused:
A truly in-your-face event - READ Surviving a Sudden Violence Event: The Kung Fu Fighter’s Guide to Clinch Range Defense by Phil Humphries
http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin...lence_Lead.jpg
One of my Kung Fu instructors would always say "foot work will possibly be involved" for streetfighting. He emphasized all sorts of foot attacks, like stomps, especially for the smaller students...Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneChing