not impressed:
http://tsd.ncc.to/m/test.mpg
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not impressed:
http://tsd.ncc.to/m/test.mpg
Why? Because the guy was doing the Linkage set "taiji speed" or because his fighter wasn't necessarily dominating the contests, but clealy landed some good techniques?
because any good boxer or muay thai fighter would have ownd them and none of the techniques that they practised in their forms or partner drills came out under pressure.
Maybe but maybe not; I didn't see them fight a boxer or an MT person. And I don't know the level of the students they showed fighting.
As for the techniques looking like the form, is that ever really the case? Look at any fight involving practitioners of a predominately form based system and tell me that the techniques they use effectively in the fight look the same as the form. Better yet, show me a clip so I'll know your frame of reference for your criticism.
Go play somewhere else, troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign-Of-Terror
Havent you anything better to do? :rolleyes:
Retard.
I just though the video was put together poorly ... hard to follow.
That was a rather slow version of Hsing I. I know it's much faster in a real life situation. And it was hard to follow with all of the added in effects between form and function(?)
peace
You guys should research some before opening your mouths. Many families of Shanxi Xing Yi practice their art at a "Taiji" speed. For instance the Song Family Shanxi I practice is all practiced at a slow, rythmic pace. Any and all can of course be practiced at varied speeds, but for the most part slower than Hebei.
Like the speed or not, the guy was decently solid. I agree it was a bit hard to follow with the effects or what not.
Jake :cool:
exactly, they dont use their techniques but use poor imitations of boxers and kickboxers, becasue that is the natural way humans fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Pen
Wait, I just read some of your other posts. Now I get why you are apt to post something just to criticize it (which was my problem in the first place). I can go back to ignoring you, but I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt first.
Jake, I wasnt' criticizing the speed of the Xingyi, I was just wondering why ROT "wasn't impressed." I don't understand the motivation of someone posting a clip just to criticize it especially when they are essentially incognito and their skills aren't known.
Jake
I didn't realize that Shanxi Hsing I is practiced much slower than Hebei. Apologies. Regardless, the guy's form is solid.
I actually saw some splitting fist in there.... when the student is pushing the other guy back from right to left. It doesn't land solidly, but it takes the space, gets inside position and drives him back.
All in all, the video quality was too poor to really see what was going on, but I wouldn't call it kick boxing or boxing.
Hopgar and Judges Pen,
No apologies needed. Shanxi is poorly represented over here in the west, so many people think Hebei is the only way Xing Yi is played. I hope to change that mindset.
Jake :cool:
Thats the natural way people fight, right....when you cover them in foam padding, put some gloves on them and forbid them to use headbuts, elbows, knees and groin strikes. You can still see xingyi this way, but mostly in movement, not technique. Good luck with your kickboxing training.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign-Of-Terror
Joseph,
Out of curiousity if you really feel that way, then how would you explain the fighting in the first 4 or so UFC's? There were no time limits, groin strikes were allow, throat strikes were allowed, small joint manipulation was allowed, knees were allowed, elbows were allowed, etc. There were reps from karate, kung fu, and other disciples there and it mostly all looked the same. Do you feel those people weren't "true" practitioners of their art?
Everybody else,
While I think ROT is trolling, I can see his point. Why practice things in forms when you don't use it in fighting? I'm sure you could simplify much of TCMA content to make it fighting specific, and yet still maintain the flavor of the style and meditiational/spiritual aspects, but not waste time on things that will be discarded in a live environment.
Hey Ford,
Regarding all the different styles looking the same, they had to, and still do look the same...but looking the same doesnt mean being the same, particulaily with Xingyi or any other "movement based" (principles) MA.
When you apply a move in a fight, a move you train in a certain form for example, the move isnt and most of the times shouldnt look exactly the same. Training it teaches angles, point of contacts, stepping, power generation, etc, things that arent exactly obvious and you can manifest and mix them in infinite ways, not just "exactly the move you would do if your doing a form".
But you have a point, some things are purely there for....i dont know what for. Should most certainly be discarded.
Ford P, ROT and y'all,
In the Xing Yi I learn, we seek to identify and train the "Jing" aka, rhythm, momentum, feeling, essence of each of the Xing Yi forms.
This is abve and beyond the specifics of the application. This is how internal martial arts are taught. Sure, there are great fighting moves in the forms. But the Jing is primary, and that can be applied to any movement.
Pi Quan is splitting movement. Whether I use a fist, foot, palm, arm, etc, I use the Pi Quan Jing to the best of my ability. As if an axe splitting wood. This can take many shapes, but it needs to be programed into the body as a certain... rhythm is the best word I can think of for it. This can only be felt, and is hard to see on video.
Same with Beng Quan, I can use any part of my body that I want, but the key is to grow and expand, always driving forward, eating my opponents space, relentlessly hitting in the gaps as they open. Again, you can only feel this first hand, it makes no sense from the outside and can indeed look like kickboxing. But the rhythm is different. The end result is the same, hitting someone as many times as necessary.
Pao Quan has an upward rising Jing, fast, easy to change, flickering like a flame, moving swiftly but surely from place to place. Alive and vicious. This is a feeling, a rhythm, a body sense that comes alive when trained the right way. It's not just a punch to the face, but that is among the possible ways of applying it.
IMO what makes Xing Yi and other IMA special is the mind training, and the training of the Jings that each specializes in. If you don't have that, then there's no reason to do Xing Yi beyond any other martial art.
When you meet someone who can really show you how these Jings are applied it will make sense. Until then it's really useless to argue over.
Bottom line, Xing Yi is not found in the moves you use, but in the way you bring them to life and apply them on someone else.
-Jess O
Joseph,
I understand what you're saying, but that isn't the point I was getting across. I know movements aren't always the same as you practice them. If I were to take you and show you the text-book double-leg takedown, it would most likely look a lot different during competition as it does against an unresisting opponent. I guess I'm talking more about modernizing TMA's. Widdle away unessentials. Drill technique against bags and mitts, and learn application in two man drills. Fight, fight, fight. Kind of like what the Yi Chuan guy did. I think it's possible to bring the TMA into modern times while still keeping the integrity of the style.
Rockwood,
I've trained in Ba Gua before and am familiar with jing/fa jing. As far as I know the goal isn't to look like an amateur boxer with poor footwork when fighting, and that is what that guy looked like. Many TMA schools I've trained at or checked out look similar. Now is this a problem inherent with the way TMA is being taught or the way it's being trained? If you want to claim that you don't look like that sparring, then please post a video. Everybody says that.
Hi Ford,
Unfortunately I can't watch the vid, my work box sucks, and I have dial up at home. Will try next week when I get back into town.
I think if I looked as good as an amatuer boxer that would be saying something! Those guys have a very high level of skill and athleticism. I only train an hour or two per day, and only spar a few times a month, so I'm nowhere near a golden gloves level.
Pi Quan is grabbing someone by the throat. Beng Quan is punching them in the face. Pao Quan is a fast punch to the chin or body. Tzuan quan is an upper cut. Heng Quan is a hook. But each can be many, many other things as well. So it's hard to say "That looks like Pi Quan." It's much easer to say "That FEELS like Pi Quan"
Xing Yi can look like everyone else. If you try to be fancy and try to LOOK like something in particular, it don't work too well. My goal is to bring the Jing to life within whatever technique or strike I'm doing. I don't worry too much about how it ends up looking.
If I use Pi Quan jing I might drive over your guard to hit you in the face. Or I might retreat and try to come up from underneath and grab your neck. Or I might attempt to arm lock you if you grab me. Doesn't matter what form it takes, the Pi Quan jing (s) is what I'm using, to the best of my ability.
I agree with you that demonstrating or teaching something looks different from using it in a play fight or sparring. The Jing may be the same but its so much faster and harder and sloppier that who can tell what's what?
All the Xing Yi people I know drill techniques with resisting opponents, spar free style and train the mind exercises and Jings. Some hit pads, I like to, while others stick to hitting people. :) I don't agree that this is modernizing it though, this is the way it's always been done by people who want to use it for application.
-Jess O
who were the kung fu guys in the first four UFC's?
Here is a fixed Hsing-I clip without all the sparring and music! I couldnt take out all the transitions, but it is still reasonably good!
I could only upload it to my Yahoo Briefcase. It is in a public folder and you will need a Yahoo ID to access it. Yahoo ID's are free! I don't know what the allowable download bandwidth is, but I will keep the file available in perpetuity!
It is encoded in Divx 5.2.1 so be sure to get the codec from divx.com if you dont have it.
If there are any other files anyone knows of they want fixed just e-mail where to get it and what you want done and i will be happy to oblige!!
It is still uploading and i need to get to work i will insert the link in a couple of hours!!
Enjoy!!! ;)
Im not saying people who spar or fight have to looke xactly like the form itself but they shou,ld at least be using the techniques manifested in the forms rather than wild punching and going ape**** because you have too much adrenaline and lack of trianing/sparring to figuare out what to do.
Scott, whats the link to your yahoo profile?
Ok!!! Sorry it didnt get it up right away, but the file was uploading and i had to go to work!! I only get dial-up!!
Here is the link: I think you dont need a Yahoo ID to access it! I'm not sure:
Hsing-I Fixed
Stranger,
Delucia, a 5 animals guy, was in #2 I believe. There was a Wing Chun guy in there and Pa Kua guy as well, but the Pa Kua guy really didn't look like he knew anything. I think he even mispelled Pa Kua. Haha! There was a big wing chun in one of the early Japan Vale Tudo's that fought Rickson Gracie. There were others, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Scott,
Good job with the clip. A question: Do you guys train like that? In the form, he left his punches dangling out there after he threw them instead of moving to retract them right away. I know that this can just be training, but that seems like it might ingrain some bad habits.
Rockwood,
I wasn't talking about the amateur boxer you'd see in the olympics. I'm talking about going to your local gym and watching random guys fight. The dance around a little a bit and then get into exchanges similar to those seen in this video. You'll see what I mean when you get access to it.
Hi Ford Prefect,
I don't know if your question was addressed to me or to anyone in general, but i don't train in Hsing-I. I just happened to have the software to edit the clip and i wanted one with only the Hsing-I. I figured if I wanted one with out the sparring others would too, so that is why i made it available. I am happy to see was correct! :)
Hey Ford,
Are you familiar to xingyi?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford Prefect
no they throw the same punches they do in training; The jab, cross, hook, and uppercut. If they start swinging wildly and turning their whole body with a punch like untrained people do they will either egt their as kicked by the more experienced guy or a good boxing coach wills top them and correct it. By the way other people agree with my assumptions. For example on this thread:
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24963
the moderator wrote:
And on this thread:Quote:
So, let me see if I get this right:
Kung fu actually works IF the other guy doesn't know how to fight AND you get in a wild haymaker.
Cool...
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthre...t=24850&page=4
the same guy wrote:
hes also been in macao and claims to have seen many kung fu masters fight and they all look the same.Quote:
As usual, if you were to put gi's on them, you would say they were doinh "karate", put shorts on them and they would be "kick boxing", etc, etc...
Xing-i, like taiji and bagua, is a very distinct system, with distinct moves, and while you see the distinctivness in the forms, you don't see it in sparring or fighting.
Thanks, ROT... I boxed for years and with a national amateur champion. I wasn't so bad myself either. I have a pretty good grip of what you see in boxing gyms. Most guys showing poor form will indeed get handled by their opponent or their coach, but nearly everybody does it when they start sparring first and plenty of guys never progress past that stage. Only at mid-level and upper-level amateur bouts do you start seeing a lot more crisp technique and sticking and moving, and see them entirely depart from the instict to stand there and trade shots.
Coming from that live background I've always been very skeptical of what a style looks like in that environment. I've seen a fair amount of guys use kung fu well in that environment. One of the guys I trained MMA with had trained with a fella named Cartmell for years and used Xing Yi and Ba Gua as his main styles on the feet. It's not about the style, it's the training and the man.
Joseph,
Only on a conceptual level. I trained Ba Gua for a bit and ran into Xing Yi guys in training (they were cross-training in Ba Gua) and at seminars. I was never a student of the style although I've seen a little bit of it from those sources.
Well, if we're talking about that clip, there's a lot to be said.
First off, we don't know where he's at in the art. We don't know his experience lever, nor the rules. I some some good things and I saw some bad.
First off, he had a nice agressive attitude (all white guy). I understand why he was plugging away at the head, it's harder to hurt a well conditioned fighter to the body with a protector on. Furthermore, if it was bare-knuckle, as the art was intended? A few of those straights would have ended it. He also was strong on his feet and reveresed a takedown attempt.
The stuff I didn't like? Karate kicks, lack of lowline kicks and sweeps to set up throws and controls. Not a lot of angles or good counter-punching.
Xingyi training will teach you how to absorb or avoid a lot of your opponents power.
The fighting looked pretty basic. The thing that really stood out in my mind was a lack of whole body strategy. It wasn't All weapons. It was punch-kick, re-set or bulling into the opponent rather than taking angles and attacking in the Xingi strategy. Ford has a point about the footwork.
I understand the gloves make it really hard to execute as well.
If you don't believe me? One of Mr. Cartmell's students who has full contact experience stated as much.
So you can throw Xingyi "tearing" and Quinna out the window.
As far as the linking form, I think the guy was just going for connection. No fa, just smooth body movement. Depends what he was working on.
I don't know much about the clip, or the folks in it and I'm not really going to try and judge it too harshly. There's been some interesting concerns and good points. I would hope you don't judge the art by one clip.
BTW - R-O-T? Good to see you Enforcer. :rolleyes:
It's not about the style, it's the training and the man.
One of the sanest and most truthful statements about Martial Arts or
any endeavor period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford Prefect
but the question is did he use bagua and xingyi footwork, strategy, defense/offense, etc. or was he just fighting like an untrained guy or relied on kickboxing/boxing that he learned since than? I saw a clip on shenwu of Maynard sparring some guy with only fists and gloves and it looked like basic boxing, I only see a jab/cross/hook I didnt see any xingyi punches.
That's not necessairly true Its hard to knock someone out with bare knuckle or gloves and especially with a vertical beng quan fist almost impossible I would think. Boxers have the best ability to knock people out since they train for it yet it takes sometimes 10 rounds for it to happen. And with the gloves no offense or defense gets taken away cause you can use any offensive or defensive move from the style as long as it is a close fisted strike and even a open palm parry/block. I even have a boxing coach that showed me forearm blocks, upward karate style bocks, etc. anything is possible with gloves on imo.Quote:
First off, he had a nice agressive attitude (all white guy). I understand why he was plugging away at the head, it's harder to hurt a well conditioned fighter to the body with a protector on. Furthermore, if it was bare-knuckle, as the art was intended? A few of those straights would have ended it.
There was a thread on shenwu where alot if not most people concluded that qin na/jjj/joint locks only work against half resisting or not fully resisting opponents.Quote:
So you can throw Xingyi "tearing" and Quinna out the window.
Actually, blacktaoist (who used to post on here) had a vid of himself taking someone down pretty quickly using nothing but beng quan.Quote:
That's not necessairly true Its hard to knock someone out with bare knuckle or gloves and especially with a vertical beng quan fist almost impossible I would think.
R-O-T,
Let see whtat you can do better.
Everyone from Ford to Rockwood has
analyzed the clip with a fair hand.
What do you have? OOoooooo, I small
the usual anonymous ***gotry...''''
Put up or shut up Enforcer, be a man.
none of his clips are very impressive, and it didint look like a beng quan but a forward charing attack with fists flying, a beng quan as done in those forms clips is totally different as the other hand has a specific posision relative to the body/head and there is a step into it. Also his san shou clips were decent but the clips with mma gloves were horrible, it seems he fights better with bigger gloves on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
Actually, xingyi fists can have numerous variations depending on the situation. Any reasonably intellegent adult is going to know to adapt. Why keep the hand in a certain spot if there's no reason to? Doesn't matter if it's ugly, as long as it gets the job done :) If you want to live in kungfu fantasy land, that's fine with me though, one less guy out there to worry about ;)
Good thing I still have room on my ignore list for another wannabe :p This thing's getting filled up pretty fast though.
Well, though I don't really like, or usually agree with the troll known as "Reign-Of-Terror" (who used to be known as "Enforcer" 'til he was banned), I do agree that Hsing-I should (even in sparring) LOOK like Hsing-I. The Hsing-I techniques were designed to work with the Hsing-I "Jings". Same with Bagua (at least as I learned it). When I fight a full contact match with Hsing-I or Bagua, I actually use the postures, footwork and techniques that I practice in my forms. And it works very well. I wasn't impressed with the "skill" or lack thereof in the sparring clips under discussion either, but I don't know the skill level of those sparring. They could very well be beginners.
so you actually think those guys would last a minute in an amatuer boxing or muay thai fight?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
They might. They are obviously tough and agressive. I doubt they'd win though.
why are there never any clips of masters fighting or sparring? Why are they always newbies or "thats not the real style"...
Couldn't ell ya'. Maybe the real masters got all their fighting out of their systems when they were "newbies". I know the reason the association I'm a member of doesn't post their matches is simply that these are "closed door" matches and conducted solely for training and self development, not public entertainment. I'm no master, but I'd gladly post some clips if I could find anyone who wanted to spar full-contact (who isn't a looney, a spaz or an azz) in the S.F. Bay area (hel!, even light contact sparring, if they want).