my 6 day per week weight routine

my buddy made this routine for me and i was wondering what you guys think.

at 140lbs my current maxs are 205 on bench, approximately 225 on squat, and 285 on dead.

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squat on monday, wed, friday and sat.

deadlift on mondays heavy, and again on wed light.

bench on tues and do light upper body work on thurs.

abs 2-3 times a week

week 1

monday-
full squat 4 sets of 9 with 160
deadlift up to 215 for 2 reps then 170 for 8 sets of 3 with 45 sec between them
bend overs- 3 sets of 5-6

tues-

comp bench press- 2 sets of 135 for 10
incline- 3x10
close grip 3x10

wed-
full squat- 5 sets of 7 with 170
sumo dl 8 sets of 3 with 170
heavy back work using 1 exercise- t bar rows, bent rows, sldl, heavy chins

thurs-
soft benching- incline or flat dumb bells 2-3 sets of 8-12
over head press- 2x10 with 110
side and rear delt raise 2-3 sets of 8-15

fri-
full sq 7 sets of 5 180
pull til knees- 3x5 with 185 (conv)

sat-
full squat 10 sets of 3 with 190
snatch 15 single with anything

sun-off

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one note is that i cant come close to over head presses 110 for 10. i can do 95 about 4 or 5 times so im good for 75 or maybe 80. last night i did 2 sets of 4 with the 95 and then did 70 for my 2 sets of 10.

Do you let yourself revover? If I lift heavy, I won't lift at all the nexy day, just cardio. Look at my blog brother. It looks good, for a little guy you sound really strong.

What kind of conditioning do you do?

Honestly, you are doing too much squatting. If you want to squat that often, then you should mix it up with variations like full squat, sumo squat, box squat, dynamic box squat, front squat, and overhead squat. You'll burn yourself out otherwise and your progress will slow much more quickly doing the same lift 4 days/week in that manner.

Also, I really don't like percentage or fixed weight programs. They don't take into account that people with different fiber ratios and physical build will have vastly different results at 80%1RM... They work for competive powerlifters and oly lifters because to be competitive you really need to fit into a certain mold, so everybody is generally the same.

Don't mean to shoot down the routine. Doing anything regularly will work most of the time.

Also, this doesn't take into your goals (what are they?) and your fitness levels.

yeah, that is a mad amount of squatting. I typically only squat once per week. Everything else, I try to hit twice per week.

I only lift 3 days a week. I only lift 3 days a week. Cardio on off days and a day of rest. you guys lift a lot.

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Originally Posted by Chief Fox

What kind of conditioning do you do?

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umm ... sometimes i go up some stairs or something. yeah ....

nah i get some sled in but thats honestly about it. unless you count rolling. i know that i need address this.

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Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Honestly, you are doing too much squatting. If you want to squat that often, then you should mix it up with variations like full squat, sumo squat, box squat, dynamic box squat, front squat, and overhead squat. You'll burn yourself out otherwise and your progress will slow much more quickly doing the same lift 4 days/week in that manner.

Also, I really don't like percentage or fixed weight programs. They don't take into account that people with different fiber ratios and physical build will have vastly different results at 80%1RM... They work for competive powerlifters and oly lifters because to be competitive you really need to fit into a certain mold, so everybody is generally the same.

Don't mean to shoot down the routine. Doing anything regularly will work most of the time.

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i hear you with the squating and when i make it to the gym to train my buddy does have me mix it up with the box/front/overhead squats. also this is just week one .... i'm assuming this changes in week two. the fact that my buddy is a competitive powerlifter might also have something to do with the routine :)

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Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Also, this doesn't take into your goals (what are they?) and your fitness levels.

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i want to get strong and get a respectable squat. also bigger legs. marcus wants to up my work capacity as its not all that great to put it nicely.

..... also i dont mean to go to far into "defending what im doing mode."

i came hear seaking advice and criticisimis and they are welcome. i'm giving my boy 8 to 12 weeks of strict obedience but any info collected now will be usefull then when i want to start a new cycle.

what would you guys do differently and why?

I would add some conditioning intervals maybe twice a week to help with your wind while rolling.

what would you recommend? would biking be good?

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Originally Posted by GunnedDownAtrocity

what would you recommend? would biking be good?

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Sure, but you have to make it really intense. Maybe find a decent hill. Something that will take you 2 or 3 minutes to get up. Once at the top maybe do like 20 pushups and 20 body weight squats. Then coast back down the hill. Do this like 4 times. Your workout will only be like 15 minutes or so but very intense.

Once you get proficient at this you could add another exercise to the top like situps or you could add another interval.

Stuff like this is great measure of fitness. When your time decreases, you know you're getting better.

I agree with Ford. If you really wanna squat that often, reduce the volume. Think of like PTP... it's 5 days a week, but low volume.

GDA,

Most of the best power lifters on the entire planet only squat 2x/week at most. These are guys who regularly squat 900-1000+ lbs. They never do things like squatting for sets of 7 or 9 unless it is a warm-up set, and even then it is rare. If you really just want a bigger squat/legs, then you'd do good to mimick them as opposed to doing what a friend says. It's rather doubtful that your friend can lift anywhere near as much as the Westside Barbell guys or that his method is anywhere near as exhaustively researched. You can see more about their methods at:

http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com

In the articles section, look for the Periodization Bible. Either that or do what Iron says and decrease volume. A powerlifter that has somebody doing full squats 4x/week and only goes under 5 reps one of those days doesn't really have a handle on things, imo.

Conditioning is a good idea too. You just to be honest with yourself about what is important to you. Is health and making the most out of the genes that you got worth anything? If so, you should be doing to some long sustained-duration cardio for 30 minutes/session at least 2x/week. If getting a bigger gas tank for fighting is important than mixing in LSD and interval training would be an option. If the only that is important is strength, then just add in the sled work.

thanks for the links man. i got them bookmarked and if i dont get much reading time over the weekend ill read them at work for sure. i like the tnation articles ... they always add a little humor in them to make for easy reading.

i hear you on the volume too ... i think that it might be partly because my squats sucked. in fact tonight was the first night that every thing clicked and i got my upper body into it and i felt myself spreading the floor through the entire movement. ill ask him what his reasoning behind all the volume is. this could change with weak two as well.

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It's rather doubtful that your friend can lift anywhere near as much as the Westside Barbell guys or that his method is anywhere near as exhaustively researched.

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whats funny is that marcus actually trains at westside when he can get up there. when i compliment him on being strong he laughs and brings up those guys. being that powerlifting is such a small community you may have even heard of my buddy ... his last name is mucheck.

Well what he's telling you to do runs counter what to just about everything Westside would. Also bare in mind that Westside is an invitation only gym. I think there are very few people if any, that can just drop by to train when they feel like it. Never heard of Marcus before.

i respect your opinion highly ford and i dont mean to get defensive of my buddy, but i guess its only natural. i hear what youre saying about the volume and i welcome the criticisms, but that aside i dont see marcus lying about where he's trained. in his own words hes a dime a dozen and i talk him up more than he does, but he's had the opportunity to meet a lot of people.

a quick google gave me these links from 2005.

http://www.nasa-sports.com/Results/R...n%20States.htm

(acrobat file ... i opened it and its fine.) http://www.aaujrogames.org/sports/20...s%20mucheck%22

http://www.geocities.com/nasa_lifters/PL-M.htm



two of his posts from another forum:

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Originally Posted by marcus mucheck

I was unaware there was even a powerlifting forum here.

My name is marcus mucheck I compete in a few diff sports, powerlifting being my favorite.

I live in West Virginia and own my own gym. We train a good bit of fighters, lifters, and bodybuilders, who actually do compete.

My platform record includes competiton wins in multiple federations including: APF, USPF, NASA, AAU, and IPA.

I train at westside barbell in columbus Ohio anywhere from 3 times a week to 4 times a month depending on my own work schedule. Ed Coan and Gene Bell have also been extremely influential in my training, they really know their stuff.

So please, now that I've introduced myself, say hello.

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http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=792187

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Originally Posted by marcus mucheck

well, just so we are all starting on the same foot...i am not solely a powerlifter...

so here are what i think a powerlifter, weightlifter, bodybuilder, and over all athlete could look at and get and idea.

front squat-315x4
high bar squat in a meet- 429 (not raw)
365x2 high bar raw
standing overhead-220
snatch- 165
clean and jerk 235, i squat jerk
incline 205x3
raw bench 315
raw squat 365x5 and 405x3 with belt
squatted 555 in a uspf meet and 585 in a apf meet.
benched 405 in a uspf meet and the same in an apf meet
deadlift 525 raw and 530 with belt. for whatever reason i get nothing out of gear for the dl.

im not sure what else would even matter. none of this is even border line good. when you train at the places i have with the people i have...theres a very high standard

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http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=793475




again i hear you on the volume thing and i'll bring it up to him .... but training meathodologies aside i dont know him to be a liar. he might not be the most humble person i've known, but he's very realistic about his place in the powerlifting world and i've never known him to talk **** he couldnt back up.

You have to look at the big picture in training. In all likelihood, this is a mere snapshot of what you will be doing. There is a time and place for high volume training such as this.

GDA, I am guessing that your coach is putting you on the "Smolov" routine.

http://www.joeskopec.com/smolov.html

Again, we have to look at the big picture here. Lower volume after 3 weeks, and you will see at a major overshoot in performance. I've heard positive feedback from plenty of people on this routine.

Having an experienced coach also makes a huge difference. He SHOULD be able to watch you train and make adjustments as necessary. So this is different from trying to apply a routine on your own.

On the other hand, you are going to have trouble training martial arts with any real intensity while doing this. Hopefully your goals are in synch with one another.

ironically enough when i walked in tonight marcus was talking to ed coan on the phone. he said i need to do more squats :)

Best powerlifter of all time. I'd be pretty starstruck!

whats sad is i dont even know that. i just now he talks to him sometimes.

it was funny because i walk in and thats the first thing he hits me with and he was wearing his westside hoodie. i told him that it was ironic and then i brought up this discussion. he laughed and asked if we wanted to know how this and that person warms up or this or that. he listed of a bunch of names but the only ones i can remember are chuck because he mentioned him a few times and amy because it was the only girls name i heard.

i'll see if i cant get him in here to talk about those guys if you're interested.

.... and ford ... maybe if i can get marcus in here he can explain the reasoning behind this routine. i'd try but im afraid **** will get lost in translation.

bleh .... i also want to say that im not trying to brag that my buddy knows these guys ..... that would be pretty lame considering ive never talked to these people myself and i didnt even know it was a thing.

man my knees are starting to hurt. my legs arent really all that sore .... in fact they are much less sore than when i do my own leg routine .... but my knees worry me.

are some aches and pains par for the course or should i consider backing off?

this is week two:

monday-
full squat 4 sets of 9 with 180
deadlift up to 230 x2 reps then 185x8 sets of 3 with 45 sec between them
bend overs- 3 sets of 5-6

tues-

comp bench press- 2 sets of 135 for 10
incline- 3x10
close grip 3x10

wed-
full squat- 5 sets of 7 with 190
sumo dl 8 sets of 3 with 170
heavy back work using 1 exercise- t bar rows, bent rows, sldl, heavy chins

thurs-
soft benching- incline or flat dumb bells 2-3 sets of 8-12
over head press- 2x10 with 110
side and rear delt raise 2-3 sets of 8-15

fri-
full sq 7 sets of 5 200
pull til knees- 3x5 with 200

sat-
full squat 10 sets of 3 with 215
snatch 15 single with anything

sun-off

I'm not trying to bag on your friend. I'm just saying to be discerning about what people tell you to do. The guy admits that the Westside guys are much better than him, so why not train Westside style? What he's having you do runs completely counter to the Westside Barbell method. You can look at all the articles on their website (www.elitefitnesssystems.com) and look at all their training logs. Nobody works out like that. You can even submit this routine to their Q&A and see if they think it's a good way to meet your goals.

If I was so inclined, I could name drop quite a bit with not only people that I have had numerous 1-on-1 phone, in-person, or e-mail conversations with, but also places where I have contributed to. The thing is that it all really means nothing. Somebody who took Feynman's introduction to Physics classes doesn't automatically grasp physics better than somebody who didn't, nor does it mean that he is as qualified as Feynman. Just tell the guy that you've read articles on the Westside site and are wondering why your training isn't similar at all.

Tell him you've read olympic weightlifting manuals from both the US and the former USSR, and ask him why your squat volume is so high when olympic weightlifters (arguably to most frequent squatters as they do it 3-4x/week) don't do as much volume or intensity. Not to mention they avoid CNS fatigue by mixing in variations.

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Originally Posted by Ford

I'm not trying to bag on your friend. I'm just saying to be discerning about what people tell you to do. The guy admits that the Westside guys are much better than him, so why not train Westside style? ........Somebody who took Feynman's introduction to Physics classes doesn't automatically grasp physics better than somebody who didn't, nor does it mean that he is as qualified as Feynman.

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fair enough .... and i was trying really hard to not get too defensive. i want criticisims on the routine ... its what i asked for ... but i did feel compelled to defend the fact that marcus has in fact trained with these guys. not that it makes any difference at all in the routine .... but no one likes to hear their friend called a liar.

my knees are wondering about this kind of volume as well. if aches and pains are normal thats cool, but ive never had ache'y knees so it scares me. i love marcus, he's my boy, but he's young and full of **** and vinager and willing to give his body more abuse than i.

That's completely understandable. It is pointless to argue whether he telling the truth or not and in the end it really accomplishes nothing for either of us. Just be discerning about the routine. That's all.

As for your knees, while I think the volume is way, way too high on the free squats, I can't say that it's abnormal. When upping the volume in full ROM movements like that, it is normal for the joints to ache initially. This should subside in a week or so. It should also be a dull ache as opposed to sharp or shooting pains. If it gets worse or you find yourself wincing from it, I'd definately cut back on the volume.

BTW, I was zoning out on my way into the office this morning. It struck me that this seems very much like the Smolov squat cycle or other similar cycle. I have a few calculators at home, so I'll throw in your numbers and see if I get a hit. I'm not really a huge fan of these because of the volume. The cycles in intensity are supposed to keep away cns fatigue, but I've always found that in trainees with a low total to begin with, it just leads to over training. For instance if the program calls for 4 sets of 9 @ 80%1rm, then 5 sets of 7 @85%1rm, then 7x5@90%1rm followed by 10 sets of 3 @ 95% 1rm, then that may be very well a good cycle to stay away from over training for a more advanced lifter.

Say you can squat 350 lbs that's 280-295-315-330

Or you can squat 400 lbs, that's 320-340-360-380

That's not bad because we are talking about 80 lbs off your max and doing it for 9 reps. Imagine doing 145 instead of 180 and how easy it would seem. Since your squat is still relatively low, the disparity between 100% and 80%1rm is that much smaller. IMO, that's when a greater disparity is needed for cycles like this.

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Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

BTW, I was zoning out on my way into the office this morning. It struck me that this seems very much like the Smolov squat cycle or other similar cycle. I have a few calculators at home, so I'll throw in your numbers and see if I get a hit. I'm not really a huge fan of these because of the volume. The cycles in intensity are supposed to keep away cns fatigue, but I've always found that in trainees with a low total to begin with, it just leads to over training. For instance if the program calls for 4 sets of 9 @ 80%1rm, then 5 sets of 7 @85%1rm, then 7x5@90%1rm followed by 10 sets of 3 @ 95% 1rm, then that may be very well a good cycle to stay away from over training for a more advanced lifter.

Say you can squat 350 lbs that's 280-295-315-330

Or you can squat 400 lbs, that's 320-340-360-380

That's not bad because we are talking about 80 lbs off your max and doing it for 9 reps. Imagine doing 145 instead of 180 and how easy it would seem. Since your squat is still relatively low, the disparity between 100% and 80%1rm is that much smaller. IMO, that's when a greater disparity is needed for cycles like this.

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oh ****s i just noticed this responce. this is the smolov routine just as william pointed out a few posts up. thanks for the link btw william ... i meant to thank you for that earlier and it slipped my mind.

i will say this about the routine ... while i was worried about my knees and hips (icing, swimming in the neighbors freezing cold pool, knee wraps, etc has helped) i am already pretty shocked by the results. at week one 10 sets of 3 at 190 felt ridiculous. monday i pumped out 4 sets of 9 without too much of a problem at all .... still felt fresh enough to do my deads and good mornings immediately afterwards (although i will admit that i got to use my buddies suit from the waist down which helped my hips ... i wish i got to use that tonight)

this is my last week of this cycle ... ill let you guys know if my one rep max looks any better in a week or two.

Haha! I feel a little silly now. I didn't see Williams post. I appologize.

The suits help a tremendous amount. I'm not a huge fan unless you are a pl'er. I wouldn't be surpised if your 1rm is higher. There are plenty of ways to do that. I was just talking from an optimal stand point and not a "nothing else will work except X" stand point.

my last day ... 220 for 10 sets of 3 and it was ****ing easy.

i am getting stronger.

smolov explained:

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/ar...3&articleid=80

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Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

If I was so inclined, I could name drop quite a bit with not only people that I have had numerous 1-on-1 phone, in-person, or e-mail conversations with, but also places where I have contributed to.

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It's true. Ford and I have emailed each other before. :cool:

I said I didn't want to name drop, ******!