Need advice on a Hsing-I school please

Hello, my first post here.
I live in England and have a backround in Shotokan Karate.
I'm now pushing 40 and injuries are motivating me to move to an Internal Kung Fu.
I found this place teaching Hsing-I in England. Website:
http://manchesterkungfu.com/Hsing%20I/Hsing%20I.htm
Does it look genuine?
The website also says that the school also teaches Tai Chi and Iron hand and some other arts that look very interesting. But I think I would like to start slow and just do Hsing-I.
Here are some videoclips too:
http://manchesterkungfu.com/footage/footage.html
The first one is Hsing-I elements.
Would you recommend this school? I have looked at a few Tai Chi schools but the teachers seem geared more towards health and relaxation. I still want to pursue a martial art with fighting applications.
Many thanks in advance
Ken

Difficult to say, Ken - as my computer won't play the videos! Ha ha... James Macneil is quite famous, so I'll check his videos!

"Genuineness" in Hsing Yi is a difficult area, as at one time it had no forms at all, and forms were added fairly recently - some say killing off its real skill level.

What part of Manchester are you from?

OK, this is they:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIghRNBhHpA

The music is nice.
Problem with telling people if something is good or not good is that everyone has different opinions, and some people laud the scum while others criticise the deeply skillful. For a beginner, there's no way to know who is telling the truth. Fortunately, the primary skill of wushu is to trust yourself - so right at the start, you have to make a decision; do I like this, don't I like it, is it for me? Later on, if you see something else, you can go and do that.

At your age, there's no time to waste! But, depends on what you are after. If you just want to get out, meet people, do a bit of training in something that's interesting and within your capabilities due to injuries, then you can decide for yourself. If you're thinking that you would like to unfold really deep insight in to kung fu theory and skill, only you can decide which path to take. So - you decide! Heh...

Welcome to the forum.

If the kwoon you are considering joining is affiliated with James Mcneil, you should be in very good hands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kennysci

Hello, my first post here.
I live in England and have a backround in Shotokan Karate.
I'm now pushing 40 and injuries are motivating me to move to an Internal Kung Fu.
I found this place teaching Hsing-I in England. Website:
http://manchesterkungfu.com/Hsing%20I/Hsing%20I.htm
Does it look genuine?
The website also says that the school also teaches Tai Chi and Iron hand and some other arts that look very interesting. But I think I would like to start slow and just do Hsing-I.
Here are some videoclips too:
http://manchesterkungfu.com/footage/footage.html
The first one is Hsing-I elements.
Would you recommend this school? I have looked at a few Tai Chi schools but the teachers seem geared more towards health and relaxation. I still want to pursue a martial art with fighting applications.
Many thanks in advance
Ken

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I second the James McNiel affiliation. He dosen't pass out teaching certificates unless you can demonstrate proper body mechanics, demonstrate some level of competence with Chi manipulation, and demonstrate real fighting ability.

McNiel is a tough Sifu. If this guy's one of his teachers, he's the real deal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kennysci

Hello, my first post here.
I live in England and have a backround in Shotokan Karate.
I'm now pushing 40 and injuries are motivating me to move to an Internal Kung Fu.
I found this place teaching Hsing-I in England. Website:
http://manchesterkungfu.com/Hsing%20I/Hsing%20I.htm
Does it look genuine?
The website also says that the school also teaches Tai Chi and Iron hand and some other arts that look very interesting. But I think I would like to start slow and just do Hsing-I.
Here are some videoclips too:
http://manchesterkungfu.com/footage/footage.html
The first one is Hsing-I elements.
Would you recommend this school? I have looked at a few Tai Chi schools but the teachers seem geared more towards health and relaxation. I still want to pursue a martial art with fighting applications.
Many thanks in advance
Ken

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hi ken,

you might ask around here http://ukbaguainstitute.co.uk/forum/index.php ... there are a lot of brits there ...

best,

bruce

Any school can have as good of looking a site as they want and there is no way to tell if they are legit unless you research into the instructors as well as go watch a couple of classes.

Yes- the club you mentioned is taught by Mr. Chris Lomas and is an excellent school. Mr. Lomas teaches primarily Xingyiquan and Baguazhang - also teaches some Splashing Hands on the side.

He spent a fortnight with me in the U.S. - he's a very fine young man and I highly recommend his school.

Mr Starr, I presume?

Welcome to the forums!

I'm halfway through your book and really enjoying it.

P.S. I love squid as well

Yes, it's me! I'm very pleased that you like my book - just wait until the second one comes out! We're in the throes of doing the photography work for it now.

And I also love squid!!!

And Chris Lomas is a really wonderful young man. Although he'd never met me, he traveled all the way to the U.S. to train. He stayed in my home and my wife adopted him...she's still trying to get her imitation British accent right. It needs a LOT of work.

:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yilishihfu

also teaches some Splashing Hands on the side.

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That strikes me (no pun intended) as a very interesting style. From what I have seen and read of it, the footwork is very unusual and effective.
Have you come across this style previously anywhere?

No, I've heard of it (only in the martial arts magazines) but never seen it before. Until it was mentioned in the media, I'd never heard of it from any of the Chinese martial arts teachers I've met over the years.


Chris uses it as a kind of warm-up and conditioning exercise but his forte is Xingyi and Bagua.

Mr Starr, have you read "Autumn Lightning" by Dave Lowry?

It starts off very similar to your book, except he writes about his time studying Japanese martial arts.

Yes, it's one of my favorites! Mr. Lowry is an outstanding writer and his insights into the nature and spirit of the Japanese (and, for that matter ALL) martial arts is invaluable.

I think I have most of his books-

I agree totally about Dave Lowry's books. I think his recent "Clouds in The West" is probably his best.

Anyway, I had a little chuckle when I read about you repeatedly knocking on the door and being told by a Chinese lady that you had the wrong place! Poor Mr Lowry went through the exact same thing!

I think that kind of approach was not unusual back in those days, probably because many Oriental teachers had no intention of teaching Westerners and also because many of them believed that Occidentals couldn't really learn or understand the martial arts.

In some cases it had something to do with testing the prospective student's resolve but in my case, I think it was just taken for granted (by my sifu's wife) that foreigners weren't to be taught kung-fu. It just wasn't done (or even considered) forty years ago.

Have you visited the school in Manchester yet?

Mr Starr, I just read your chapter where you are discussing the benefits of kung fu uniforms with your teacher. Nowadays, what are your thoughts on having uniforms? And how about visible signs of rank such as coloured sashes? Do you feel these are beneficial?

Actually, I think both are very important parts of training...of course, I come from a military background and I suppose that has something to do with it, but-

I find that the way people dress influences the way they tend to behave and work. This isn't an absolute, but by and large, it's true. Wearing a proper uniform gives the practitioner a sence of "Now I'm really doing it" - especially in the case of beginners. But even so, advanced practitioners often tend to perform better when they're attired in a proper uniform.

In Japanese martial arts the uniform is practical; no zippers or plastic buttons to cause injuries. The "kung-fu uniform" is a bit impractical since, if you grab the front of the jacket and give it a yank (as when executing a throw) the frog button rip out easily. The fold-over front is much more practical and rugged. And safe.

I'm a strong advocate of rank. I know that institution has been greatly abused over the years but it's the best solution that I can see. In Chinese martial arts, an instructor can claim to have studied under "Master (Pick a name)" for several years and lay claim to possessing ocnsiderable skill. But you have no way of knowing that unless you want to cross fists with him.

And anyway, just training with someone for a given length of time means little. How long were training sessions? How many times a week or month (on average) did he attend? Was he really any good? After all, I've had students who trained for some time but who never really acquired much skill...

And would we go to a doctor who didn't have a proper license and graduation certificate from medical school?

No, a colored sash or belt doesn't necessarily guarantee a given level of skill but it's better than nothing.

In the military, enlisted men and officers wear indications of their rank. Everyone knows who is who, even if a member of one branch of service (say, the army) is working with someone from another branch (like the navy).

Sifu Adam Hsu is another strong advocate of establishing a standardized ranking system within the Chinese martial arts. My own Yiliquan Association has issued rank since it was first established...

I'm very much in agreement regarding the uniforms. There is definitely an effect on people (not just martial artists) depending on what they wear. There's a reason why corporations have dress codes. Personally, I like uniforms and think they're a good thing.

On the other hand, there's a school of thought that points out that in the past, people just trained in what they wore everyday. In other words, what we consider to be uniforms nowadays were simply the ancient equivalent of a tracksuit or street clothing. (For example, the Japanese martial arts gi we see today may have actually been modelled on the fireman's jacket!) This school of thought would say that wearing everyday clothes is actually more traditional.

By extension, what are your thoughts on the training environment itself? For example, having a dedicated kwoon as opposed to training in a church hall or sports centre of Boy Scout hall?

I know some people think that the whole idea of a traditional kwoon with altar and weapons racks and other decor is a "gimmick" to attract a certain type of student. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Insofar as uniforms go, it is true that the "kung-fu uniform" is taken from old-fashioned Chinese street clothes and the original judogi probably evolved from the Japanese fireman's jacket or something similar.

But.

Our early infantry soldiers had no uniforms nor did they carry standardized weapons. So just because something is old or original doesn't make it "traditional", nor does it indicate that it is better... One must look beyond such things and strive for what works best.

Dr. Kano knew that a standardized uniform was essential to the propagation of his art...Master Funakoshi knew the same thing. And they were right. I can't imagine practicing judo in street-clothes! At least not for very long...

Kung-fu stylists originally had no standardized uniform. And they still don't. And look at their organizational structure versus something like Kodokan judo...In judo, when someone says he's a such-and-such degree black belt, you can quickly determine what he's supposed to know and what level of skill he should possess. Sadly, this is not the case with Chinese martial arts where many people practice in shorts and tee-shirts and eschew the idea of belt ranking...

As for a proper, traditional training hall...yes, they're very nice and I prefer them over church halls or whatever but with the rental costs of facilities being what they are nowadays, we often have little choice. But even a church hall or recreation center gym can become a proper training hall if it's approached, treated, and trained in with the proper spirit.

Certainly, some schools try to use their training halls as a sales gimmick but I've never seen a traditional -type training hall used in that way. The teachers who are out to make a quick buck usually have schools that are overly gaudy and are decorated like a birthday cake...I stay clear of those kinds of places.

A proper school, whether it's a gym, Boy Scout meeting room, or a full-time martial arts facility, should be simple but practical and very clean and neat. And it's treated with great respect because it is where you grow and develop yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yilishihfu

Kung-fu stylists originally had no standardized uniform. And they still don't. And look at their organizational structure versus something like Kodokan judo...In judo, when someone says he's a such-and-such degree black belt, you can quickly determine what he's supposed to know and what level of skill he should possess. Sadly, this is not the case with Chinese martial arts where many people practice in shorts and tee-shirts and eschew the idea of belt ranking...
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Agree totally!

Another thing I like about a standardised uniform is the psychological effect. I like the fact that it shows that all the students are equal. Obviously, I'm not in favour of everyone being simply a clone of each other. But there is (IMO) something good about this simple way of symbolising that everyone is part of a group.

Exactly! Moreover, I think the uniform should be practical; no zippers or similar devices that may cause injuries, no pockets to get hung up in, and so on.

At one time I had a student who suggested that we just wear tee-shirts and kung-fu trousers...I asked if he thought we should wear those same shirts during shuai-jiao training because a tee-shirt will rip apart very easily under such rugged practice. I suggested that instead of wearing jackets that could be grabbed, we might as well go ahead and grab meat.

He understood-

Does Lomas really just teach it "on the side"? He's such a huge apologist of the style. In his opinion its the best self defense system going. I was so convinced by his arguments with people on various boards I looked into training it back in January. He put me in contact with McNeil to see if anyone near me taught it. Trouble is there's no Splashing Hands teachers around Seattle. There was a student of McNeil's here but he didn't have the whole style and though at first he seemed interested in teaching what he knew, I got the impression he didn't really have any time to teach. But I digress. Lomas makes it sound like SH is his main focus.

[QUOTE=kennysci;746197]Hello, my first post here.
I live in England and have a backround in Shotokan Karate.
I'm now pushing 40 and injuries are motivating me to move to an Internal Kung Fu.
I found this place teaching Hsing-I in England. Website:
http://manchesterkungfu.com/Hsing%20I/Hsing%20I.htm
Does it look genuine?
The website also says that the school also teaches Tai Chi and Iron hand and some other arts that look very interesting. But I think I would like to start slow and just do Hsing-I.
Here are some videoclips too:
http://manchesterkungfu.com/footage/footage.html
The first one is Hsing-I elements.
Would you recommend this school? I have looked at a few Tai Chi schools but the teachers seem geared more towards health and relaxation. I still want to pursue a martial art with fighting applications.
Many thanks in advance
Ken[/QUO
i would ask who his teachers are and look at them as well just some research

and yes hsing.i allways had forms that how you would get all your structure right and alined

I know that he studied with Mr. McNeil (sp?) and has received instruction from Chinese teachers as well.

He stayed with me for two weeks, training sometimes 8+ hours every day...his Splashing Hands is, I believe, now used as a kind of cardio exercise routine and his main focus is on Xingyi and then Bagua.

He also participated in our Yiliquan classes - never wimped out, and kept up with the seniors every step of the way. Very strong spirit! And he learned some very valuable principles and techniques -

I hope to be able to go to Manchester someday - perhaps teaching a seminar or two or three - and spend time with Chris and his students! My wife adopted him and we stay in touch via email...

I highly recommend his school.

The SH guy I talked to in Seattle spoke very highly of Lomas's ability.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheSwedishChef

Does Lomas really just teach it "on the side"? He's such a huge apologist of the style. In his opinion its the best self defense system going. .

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I've progressed beyond believing that there is (or has ever been) such a thing as the best self defense style.

However having said that, the footage I've seen of splashing hands makes me think that it is a very effective system. Look at some of the videoclips here www.splashinghands.com.

To me it looks very effective stuff. Kind of like the hand speed of wing chun combined with the footwork of Muhammed Ali.

It's meant to date back from the Shaolin Temple where it was used by the temple guards. It would have had to be pretty powerful to cope with that environment.

Anyway, back to the original poster: James McNeil is legitimate and very highly regarded. I remember him from way back in the early days of Inside Kung Fu. If this school is part of his organisation, I would say go for it.