I think this was at the wong fei hung tournament
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkz1tFW68N0
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I think this was at the wong fei hung tournament
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkz1tFW68N0
not bad; interesting to see how some of the moves have evolved over time...
I have got confused maybe but you said you are not his student so why is every post you have just to sell this one school
I don't have to be a student to be a fan. When you go to a lot of tournaments you make a few friends. I guess you can hold me guilty for trying to promote a friends school so what of it. I do CLF and White Crane and our Sifu's are friends.
If you haven't noticed this is the southern forum where people post vids of them selves or friends from other schools all the time.
What lineage is your CLF from?
hskwarrior
WARRIOR NATION! Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: San Francisco, Cali
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nice work gus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8b3yARd6qU
Case in point this is an example Sifu Frank starting a thread to plug a friends Vid.
here is another form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z83_lnSogQU
WOW!
I am sad to see how much the form has changed in 20 years, since it was first taught.
The performer is a good athlete and makes a good showing however.
Unfortunatly, that is VERY different from how the style, the forms and the techniques are really played.
I made an instructional video of this form back in 94. Here is the clip so that there is no confusion about Chan Tai-San's Lama style and how it should be done. Even though the tape was not done at full/performace speed, it is clear how the form should be played and the energy of the style.
Lama Pai Sahp Jih Kyuhn
The performer in the clip does a lot of jumping, I assume as a method to generate power. This is not how it is done in the Lama style. You will also notice that many of the techniques have been changed; albeit some slightly but some COMPLETLY.
Sifu David Ross was actually the original person to learn this form back in 1987 I believe. The following year he taught it to me. Students of Chan Tai-San frequently exchanged forms, patterns and combinations with each other. I have the original tapes of David learning it in the Duk Chan in Chinatown, NY. I'm sure David will also attest to the fact that this forms is waaay away from the original version or how the style is supposed to be done.
It is unfortunate when forms or styles 'devolve' over such a short period of time (1 generation).
I will also be putting out some new Lama clips as well. Not intending to hijack this thread, but it's hard for me to just sit back and watch a style that myself and my classmates work so hard on,...being butchered, for lack of a better word. No, on second thought; 'butchered' is a pretty accurate description.
Sidebar; NOWHERE did I mention the teacher of the performer, make reference to his name or imply or infer anything about him. I am only commenting on what I am watching here. So this has nothing to do with any flame-war, just me calling it like it is as an authority on the style.
It has become very "popular" over the last 15 years, perhaps more so, to modify the forms to make them "better for competition", I recall one of the last competitions I was at I so people doing kicks in Seiunchin and even the splits in Sanchin !!
I cried a tear for the death of forms that day.
Making a form a little 'showy' for a tournament - I can understand. That is not what we are talking about here. Adding some sounds, snappy headmovement, pauses - I can understand (not that it was done here).
Changing the way the techniques are done so that they barely or no longer represent the original technique - that is what I mean. You don't have to change a technique for a tournament.
This form wasn't augmented for a tournament. It is the way it is being taught.
Or, as it happens, a great deal of pratitioners all over the country, learning a little bit of a style and then teaching it. You can see clips of people all over the world on youtube and see how many styles have devolved.
Not everyone is a good martial artist.
Not everyone can grasp a teachers teachings.
Not everyone puts their required time in to become good.
Not everyone is smart - (yes, you need some intelligence to get it)
Quite correct, I know a fellow that is such an example, though he trained a certain TCMA for close to 15 years, he thought he had learned what the system had to offer, fact is, he didn't, but what does it say about a system and a teacher that, after 15 years someone is that "ignorant" of his own system ?
CTS had certain people "specialize" in certain styles.... on the Lama Pai end, Steve Ventura, Stephen Innocenzi and I were the people who did the most Lama Pai. Mike did quite a lot, but his primary course of study, his "major" if you will, was CLF.
I learned Sahp Jih Kyuhn first... actually, my friend Craig Staub learned it with me and is in the video Mike mentioned (Craig is a dear friend who died on 9/11)
Simply put, the form as done is WRONG. Not only is it played wrong (it is played like CLF, not like Lama), the movements are wrong. This set is supposed to begin with the classic "white crane cuts" or Pek Jong combinations. They are 100% absent. At one point a step is made in the wrong direction. If need be, I have myself doing the set on video somewhere and we can digitize it and post it....
As for the staff form, all the twirls are not part of the original set, many of the techniques are being done in the wrong direction. I know this because this is a set Steve Ventura and I learned ALONE, then shared with the hing-dai....
Sad to see this stuff passed off as CTS material, since it is NOT
It's a shame, isn't it?
More than words can say,
See, what you are doing by putting out your stuff, is showing the world what the right way is and how it is done, the light makes everything clear and hides nothing.
The more the public sees, the ore educated they are, the better to deal with the crap that can be passed off as "legit" or even "good".
Props again to you Michael.
yes it is a shame, especially to the ones that learned the original style or styles.
One begins to wonder, what will it turn into a few years up the road.
Keep the faith.
Ok guys this is like the story the kings new clothes, if you look at lama sifu form from 1992 and my student's form it's exactly the same exept for the fact that my student won first place doing that form and I would like to note that one of the judges was Sifu Wong one of the most respected Jow Ga Sifu's in the country. This is about skill nothing else please post one of your students doing something.:rolleyes: And oh yea with out Cut Take two that's a wrap
many of the techniques are differentQuote:
if you look at lama sifu form from 1992 and my student's form it's exactly the same exept for the fact that .....
the footwork is different
they step in different directions
the "jing" is different
other than that, exactly the same :rolleyes:
Form the outside looking in, it seems that the angles were different, some of the power delivery was different, the foot wrok in some parts was different and the "applications" were not the same.
But this is from the outside looking in, I don't know anything about Lama forms so...
Did ya ever think that someone who is performing the form in a tournament might be playing the form differently than they normaly would. Or how about maybe there not master sifu's like you guys are and they might not have played the form correctly.
Once again I will agree that when it comes to forms we play it differently.
if he did something "fancy" or did a cartwheel or something impressive, that would be a logical conclusion
but, for the sake of a tournament would you do a technique WRONG?
I'll get back to the "sek lihn jih" in a minute... but let's talk about the fact that after the Chyuhn Choih, the pak yik is in the wrong direction and there is no seung gok prior
The basic application, as taught to us by Master Chan Tai San, was that your opponent would use the "Neih Lahk" technique against the chyuhn choih, requiring you to use che yu to avoid the counter strike, the seung gok then traps the arm and the pak yik is thus open, ie you open the third gate
as a master of Chan Tai San's kung fu, I'm sure you know exactly what I am talking about, right?
So why does your student just Chyuhn Choih and then JUST pak yik in the SAME PLACE?
It doesn't improve the performance of the set in any way, and it clearly strips the form of an important combat application?
Yes Dave now that I looked at it again your right, he does make a few mistakes and he does go into a right pak yik first instead of going to the left first after that he fails to stretch out his left hand and also the beginning is wrong he fails to open the book and what not, but in the students defense he was trying out the form for the first time in copetition and that is why there are some flaws. As you already know Lama is very hard to perform and it's not the sexiest looking style.
Over all I'd give the young lad an A+ for effort, that being said I will be executing him at dawn:p
I've said it before, more than a few times, all of your students look like the work hard and love kung fu......
I'm just wondering why the form is so different?
Going back to the "sek lihn jih", considering the historical significance of these movements, why did you change it?
According to legend (of course we can't say 100% if it's true), Sahp Jih is Wong Lam Hoi's form so the "sek lihn jih" is Wong Lam Hoi's famous "gam gaau jih sau". Removing it would be like removing the "lihn waan saam paau" that was characteristic of Wong Yan Lam from Sahp Jih Kau Da, don't you think?
thats nice:D
cordial conversings amongst classmates!!!!!!!
GROUP HUG........
nah, don't phucking touch me..........it ain't that type of party!!!!!!!!:mad:
I can understand if a student cannot perform at the level of an Instructor. I think your student is a good athlete.
Dave's points are quite valid though. Why not stick to teaching forms that you have expertise in, instead of teaching this set. You know, Dave, Steven(s) Chris and myself all seem to perform/teach/execute techniques from this style with a certain percent of consistancy. 90+%. I think everyone will have their own way of doing things and that is what makes them unique. A certain percentage of variation/difference is reasonable and perhaps expected. This form however, is being taught in a different manner than it was taught to you. I should know because as a matter of fact, you either learned it from me or someone that I taught.
What gets me, and my major gripe with you is that you never try to improve your kung-fu. When you trained with our teacher, you had some past experience. When he would teach you things, you never could seem to 'empty your cup' and instead you tried to interpret what he showed you and fit it into the moves you already knew. "Oh, it's just like this, or it's just like that..." Unfortunatly, sometimes that put you at a disadvantage.
I don't hate you. I did lose most of whatever respect I had for you last year with the fiasco on this forum. You personally attacked me on this forum, repeating heresay and spreading lies about my business and my character. You immediatly acted in a different manner off the forum (via phone) and when you got back on the forum, you went back to posturing like a tough guy.
You know, if you asked any of us for information or advice about our teacher's Kung-Fu, it would have been available for you. As we all know, you worked out of town quite a bit and didn't have the same opportunity to train with him as most of us did. Nothing wrong with that, no one holds that against you.
But here is the real and honest deal; When you first came on this forum, I can honestly say that Dave, Chris and Myself were happy about it. However...you quickly started criticizing people for the lineage, the chinese prononciation and their knowledge styles. You made some outrageous claims about our teacher and printed many untruths and incorrect facts. You were sent PM's (by us) when you were arguing with people where you were clearly wrong. We did this to help you, not CONTROL you as you replied back. You PM'd me like a 5 year old kid and said to me "don't tell me what to say; I can say whatever I want". We were only trying to help you and ourselves, to NOT look bad.
As far as your student's form, it's not the worst interpretation of the Lama style I've ever seen. But the jumping and no waist power is just flat out wrong. That is NOT the way the style is done. Lots of styles use Kahp. But it's the WAY that Lama does it that makes it different. You are just teaching the moves here, without the intent/power or true application. Not to mention the movements that are left out or glanced over. It is clear that the performer does not have the proper intent with many of the techniques and as he is one of your most senior guys, I would assume that should have the right idea when it comes to application.
Two years ago, we were at the same tournament together. Our students competed in the adult advanced division. Your student came up to me and was intrigued by the differences in the way my students played the same hand forms in which he knew. When he asked me about it, I told him to talk to you first. I said I would show him but he'd have to ask you.
<personal note: You have them doing SIU KAU DA and LOHAN BAAI FAHT with jumping and skipping. SIU KAU DA is being done by your people as a giant exaggerated movement. It is NOT correct. If that's the way YOU want to do it, you should tell your students that these are YOUR changes and that our Sifu did NOT do it this way. I even remember us arguing about it and Sifu clearly said NO JUMPING. You walked away and said that you were going to do it any way you liked. Do you remember that? It was in Mineola.>
AND, if you are teaching Siu Sahp Jih, Chaat Sing Kyuhn or Liin Waahn Kyuhn (ALL CLF) remember - I LEARNED THEM. I taught them to you. I say this so that there is no misunderstanding about my criticism. I'm not talking out of my a$$ when I say this.
I'm not saying mean stuff to you, nor am I making fun of you in any way. I'm not being disresectful either. I'm pointing out facts to you and stating my opinions as well.
Most of us spent a long time learning from Sifu and put in our dues. We learned a new language, put up with all his craziness, deal with these ridiculous organizations, etc. We take what we learned and teach, very seriously. When you don't give it 100% and you start changing stuff left and right, we all get miffed.
Oh, and when you attack and challenge your own classmates, or talk bad about them.....no one likes that very much either.
So there it is, it's out there. I'm not starting any flame-war here, if anything I think I might have doused it a bit.
And for the record; I've not said a dissrespectful word about you or called you any names or made fun of you. If you don't want to respond to this, that is fine. I just want to tell you how we all feel (along with myself obviously). Do with it what you will.
Peace.
hey does this have a pause button?
POPCORN...........POPCORN............:eek:will someone get me some god ****n popcorn?
Are you saying that he just learned this set? I believe that he has done a Lama form in a tourny before. I think I have the tape. Plus, didn't you tell me personally (two years ago) that he has been training with you for 9 years? Why is there always an excuse?
ok ok ok guys.... I am the student who performed the apparently horrible "Lama Sup Ji" at the wong fei hung tournament. I apologize for any mistakes I may have made, but as my sifu stated, it was my first time doing this form in a tournament. This tournament was in 2006 I believe, and I was training about 5 1/2 years at the time, so I apologize for not having become a "Lama Pai master" yet. I'm working on it. I would absolutely love to see some footage of this form done "correctly" and continuously from beginning to end so maybe one day I can learn how to "play this form correctly." Any and all "constructive" criticism is appreciated. Notice I said "contructive," if you have any criticisms that might aid me in doing this form better, I'm open minded. But I do not think it's fair to show someone doing this form in 10 different segments, because I'm sure I could do this form without mistake if I wasn't concerned about finishing the form within a time limit, while trying to make it look powerful, intense, and crisp. Not to mention at this point in the tournament I had already fought 3 times, done my broadsword set, and my staff set. So fatigue is also a factor. I'm sure you'll agree, Lama Pai is a tough style to play, certainly by a novice like myself.
Yea right just as I was going to answere Dave's question wow, but If we could cease fire for a second I agree with alot of what Mike sais, but on the other hand I feel that it's ok to have a difference of opinion as long it's not shoved down your throat.
As far as for my behaviour last year there is no exuse I went to far and said some thing I should't and as I have stated before I was in a bad place. I've actualy let it go as far as being different I'l always have my own opinion not to say that I hate these guys at all.
I have let it go at least for Sifu's sake and believe or not I have always given Dave and Mike Kudos in many areas.
straw men are not necessary
Neither Mike nor I attacked you in any way... our comments were substantive to the content of the form and how it was played in the sense of "jing" etc
Particularly RE my posts, did you change to technique sequences or were they the way you were taught? IE did you learn the "sek lihn jih" and change it to che sau so .... etc
oh, and for the record, I began training October 10, 2000. Trust me, I know the date better than I know most of my families' birthdays.
WOW. Why do both you and your sifu continue to refer to my clip of the same form? It was from an instructional video tape done back in 1994. What is your point? Are you and he, trying to say that I could not make the form look good if I didn't break it into sections? WTF? IT'S FROM AN INSTRUCTIONAL TAPE. Wether I did 10 moves in a row or 60, it doesn't change them from being right or wrong.
How is it not FAIR? Are we in some sort of competition that I'm not aware of? What are you talking about?? And it's not 10 segments, it's 6, roughly 10 moves per segment. And I only posted 4 segments I believe. Even so, what's the difference? Moves are moves. 1st move 60th move, all the same. Right or wrong - that is what matters.