How can you use your Wing Chun to defeat a ground figher with out going to ground or having taking any Ground fighting classes?
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How can you use your Wing Chun to defeat a ground figher with out going to ground or having taking any Ground fighting classes?
..........................run
just effing bite them... take a few mouthfuls off of their bodies, they'll let up real quick. :D
Oh, oh....newbie to wing chun forum alert!!! :eek:
He's obviously unaware that there have been about 600 threads on this subject so far...:rolleyes: :cool:
:D
Gun. Gun is only solution to that guy.Quote:
You've got Stone Cold Steve Austin breathing fire and smashing beer cans on his head, full ones so he's really really ****ed, coming for you.
AS Vic said, this dead horse has been flogged to life again and back to dead several hundred times on various fora including this one. Every possible position on the subject, from the eminently sensible to the utter lunatic, from WC fundamentalism to MMA fundamentalism via pragmatism and back has been stated over and over.
Many WC styles have some groundfighting in them. But their practitioners are unlikely to have a hope on the ground against someone who trains there every day unless they do the same.
If you''re concerned about fighting groundfighters (why?), learn groundfighting. Know your enemy, even if he exists only in your imagination.
You're likely to avoid fights with wrestlers if you stop going to wrestling meets and shouting out that all that hugging and those singlets make them look gay.
The problem sometimes is that too many people think that if they take up BJJ or MMA to adress the ground issue that, somehow, they are not doing their "style" anymore.
Someone has told them that to do B you have to stop A :confused:
Fact is, you wanna use your WC VS a wrestler, learn to wrestle, learn what they are good at, what their wekanesses are and learn hwo to use your WC to counter their strengths and expolit their weaknesses.
This is what every other MA FIGHTER(S) has ever done, why stop now?
avoid getting taken down :)
its not always a guarantee. look at chuck liddell. although hes not inept on the ground he is primarily a striker. how often does he get taken down.
something that can help with being taken down is to not stay stationary. keep circling. this lateral movement makes it a little harder for him to shoot on your perfectly. harder to get a double leg on you. if he goes for the single then you have more opportunity to choke him, or hit him in soem other way.
also keep low, lower center of gravity. dont stand there flat footed with a straight back.
this is not a guaranteed defense, but things to work on.
also, if for what reason you cannot learn some form of groundfighting, learn to bridge and get people off you so you can scramble to your feet again
I don't know about his BJJ skills but he was a division 1 wrestler at California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo.
Being a division 1 wrestler puts you pretty high up on the grappling food chain.
So the answer is for the WCer to become a Div. 1 wrestler.
Problem solved!
As WC fundamentalism or WC Purist how does one defeat a wrestler.
In other words No matter if you advoid the take down or you are taking down to ground what are some purely Wing Chun tactics for getting off the ground or advoiding the take down.
As for being a Newbie Ultimate this is my first week on this Forum. So Newbie I am...
Anyway I heard biting as one technique. Anything else to accompany biting?
I mean what I am looking for is some possible solution to defeat a wrestler with out learning wrestling.
So how do you take a wrestler out with out taking up BJJ or learning how to wrestle?
A couple of examples of what I mean:
Please surely Wing Chun can defeat both striking and grappling styles with out having to to learn the various styles? Or is it Wing Chun is unable to defeat wrestlers. If thats the case why learn Wing Chun. If all Wrestling and grappling styles can defeat WC why not just learn ground fighting so you can beat WC fighters. By default any fighter a WC guy can defeat you will be able to defeat because Grappling and Ground Fighting is superior to pure Wing Chun.Quote:
How to defeat a boxer with out taking up boxing(Don't play the boxers game). How to defeat a Tae Kwon Do Guy with out taking up Tae Kwon Do(Don't play their game, Jam thier distance, bridge the gap so they don't have room to kick).
In other words Ground fighting is the ultimate art that can not be defeated unless you study ground fighting!
How to defeat a wrestler?
Well first, using your gan sau you would have to...... :eek: j/k
Looking for a written explaination to a alive event would do you no good. If you want to learn how to deal with a wrestler, without having to take up the study wrestling itself, the only logical advise I can give you is to investigate their method, spar with them, get taken down by them, counter them and then repeat repeat repeat until you are familiar with their methods and confident with your response.
I recently had a VT buddy have a experience with a wrestler, and he was able to successfully avoid his takedown attempts on few occasions. Of course, what one person does means little to another, but it does provide evidence that nothing is impossible, and that both methods can either win in the encounter or lose, it's up to each individual, not what someone tells you on a internet forum or in person.
Remember, VT doesn't fight, you do, and it is what you do with your training that counts.
James
Biting is a very very bad idea to do to a grappler who has taken you down. Look at the scenario.
1. He has taken you down.
2. He has achieved a dominant position.
3. You bite him.
4. A very very p1ssed off wrestler now sits on you chest and beats you without mercy. You lose many teeth and you promise God that you will never bite anyone ever again.
Well if your talking about competition, of course you would not "bite" someone, lol. But if you are a VT guy, competiting in a wrestling tournament, then what chance do you have anyways?
On the street (where he is more than likely going to beat you without mercy anyways, regardless if you bite him first or not), if someone has you mounted and you don't know what the hell is going on, I would bite if the opportunity arose, but not just bite as a fight finisher but to use it as a set up for something else. You have to do something right, it may not be the only choice, but the opportunity may be there. The problem with biting, is the fact that you don't know what you are biting into, the guy could be full of disease.
Paul Vunak has some video on this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMhVLPwH47k, and there is a FMA art the exclusively concentrates on biting. There are something like 14 different ways to bite, and the muscles in the jaw have to be trained. They also train with meat attached to your partners body so you can actually bite someone in various spots to make it more realistic. I believe Vu advises that without any grappling experience, biting will more than likely not be a choice, and that one still has to have some skills to make it work. And if someone is in a more superior ground position than you, they also have the opportunity to bite you as well, the thing is if you aren't training it it may not come out.
My loonies worth:cool:
James
"I mean what I am looking for is some possible solution to defeat a wrestler with out learning wrestling.
So how do you take a wrestler out with out taking up BJJ or learning how to wrestle?"
***A SO-SO WRESTLER...garn sao and elbow strike.
A good wrestler - baseball bat.
yeah he started out wrestling and then doing hawaiian kempo or something like that.
but what im saying is that when u watch his fights, he rarely gets taken to the ground.
he has good counters to takedown attempts. either a sprawl or he has good timing and hits them while coming in
no not all wrestling guys can beat a WC guy. if you are going up against a person who is not a skilled fighter then running into him (maybe takin a couple shots along the way but this guy is not skilled or accurate so it is not a big deal), taking him down and doing a ground and pound is probably the best way to get the most bang for your buck in terms of the amount of time you train for the results you get.
its like relying solely on the chung choi and agression in wing chun. against a guy in a bar who isnt trained in anything, even if he is tough, if you fly at him with a good chung choi you will overwhelm him.
however if you are fighting someone skilled ...he will knee you in the face as you go for a double leg or do a flopping wing to your chung choi
if you are fighting multiple opponents, then any pure grappling or wrestling art becomes as useless . as you are rolling on the ground trying to get a chokehold someone will kick you in the back of hte head or worse.
also, if someone takes you down and you get him in your bjj guard, its not the same as in the UFC. while your trying to get a chokehold or joint lock the guy on top can do all sorts of things to your groin or other areas not legal in the UFC.
A famous example is where Sum Nung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_Nung) fought a wrestler Kwok Wan-Ping (http://www.cantonwingchun.com/about.asp)
Kwok was a student of Shuai jiao (Chinese Wrestling), Chinese grappling, and Greco-Roman wrestling. In fact that was what he studied in college. Kwok's Sifu told him to challenge Sum Nung, who was gaining notoriety at the time for being a great fighter.
Kwok thought, as most would, that all he needed to do is take Sum Nung down. Once that happened Sum's Wing Chun would be useless and could be defeated easily.
Sum accepted the challenge and when they fought Sum Nung used some anti-grappling techniques and snapped Kwok's wrist. Kwok dropped to his knees and begged Sum Nung to be his student. Sum Nung accepted of course and Kwok Wan-Ping was one of his indoor students for many years.
This is not a fantastic tale of any kind, but of course I know some on this board will say "its fantasy" or something to that effect but the point is simple.
1. If you take a striker off his feet, he will be at a disadvantage
2. If a wrestler is on his feet he will be at a disadvantage
So you cant say a WC guy cannot defeat a wrestler or vice versa. There are always strenghts and weaknesses
100% best answer!
knock him out!
Fantasy or not, we don't know of anyone who was there to see it, now do we? (Sum Nung)
So how good was this wrestler-turned-wc fighter, do we know?
Did he just charge in?
We don't know anything for sure about this event, so let's not get carried away here. But what we do know is what we've seen over the last 16 years now in mma...hundreds of times.
So here's the short answer to your question - which has been discussed ad infinitem on this forum in the past:
Learn (and get good at) what is called a "sprawl" in wrestling. It's a great wrestler's defense against shoot takedowns to the legs.
So you try to keep the fight standing with this; or at the very least, if he goes for the shoot and you both go down - YOU wind up on top of him.
The only easy fights are the imaginary ones discussed on internet forums.Quote:
Yeah, but be aware it's not quite that easy.
Yeah, Yoshiyahu, you're a newbie. So pay your dues and read the old threads before demanding everyone answer the questions which are already answered (where they are in fact answerable) elsewhere.
Maurice Smith is probably a better poster boy for striking purists in MMA than Chuck Lidell.
Chuck is a great striker and seems to prefer that over wrestling ... but he's also a very good wrestler.
Even Maurice Smith invested some time learning counters to grappling from grapplers.
No because the core set of techniques one learns and applies, are very similar.Quote:
Will you need to learn Tae Kwon Do to defeat a TKD man if you only study karate?
If you want to be good at fencing you learn fencing, not shooting.
If you want to be good at fighting in the clinch and grappling range, you need to go outside of wing chun and learn from the styles that include that curriculum.
You cannot be a WC Purist or Any Style-Purist, its counter-productive and honestly, completely ****ing stupid. If you care about the combat part - You learn everything that is effective in combat. Grappling is not part of WC's curriculum, thus you need to look elsewhere to fill that gap. It doesn't even have the most common anti-grappling defenses, thus you need to look elsewhere for that as well.
so far biting has been the most viable option... now add some clawing to his eyes and face in attempts to rake it off, followed by attempts to rake any other exposed part of his body... stick your fingers into his armpits, grab his crotch, twist and pull... somewhere in all of that you are bound to get back on to your feet and kick the living poo out of him. :)
I will answer your question based on exactly what you asked.
You don't have to go to the ground. You also don't have to take any groundfighting classes. BUT!
You will have to find a few people with some grappling experience and square off in front of them. When this happens, you will quickly find out what works. IME, jamming with a Jum Sau on the neck, getting a piece of the eyes, mouth and ears WHILE either getting those hips back or dropping to a Kwai Sat (ie: lowering your base) seems to work for me. You can also think about dropping elbows on the back of the neck/head or on the opponent's back, but you can't rely on these techniques for a couple of reasons, IMO:
1. You can't pull them off 'realistically.' This doesn't mean they won't work. It just means that I like my training partners and I won't be dropping any elbows on their spine. Therefore, I know that going for vitals on the face works and the other things I mentioned, because you get an immediate (and safe) response.
2. You have to think like some of us WC people do: logically. If I hit someone in the face on their COM while they are trying to come around with a hook punch, their power won't be as strong. It still might connect, but their punch won't have the power it used to. While your base (read: hips/legs) are getting taken out from underneath you, everything you do with your hands will lose power (no ground power, worry starts to set in as you are getting dumped on your a$$, going into survival mode, etc).
Hope this helps. Find some nice people to hang out with and train with, talk to your Sifu, talk to your WC friends - if they can't help you, stretch your circle of influence out f@rther until you find what you're looking for. Warning: This forum is lame at best. I can count on one hand the people I trust here. LOL
Best.
Chango has the only correct answer to the question IMO. If your training (or lack of) fails you when you need it here it's not your lucky day.
One thing to consider is that people who do combat sports are used to being hurt and continuing to fight.
While rolling in BJJ I have been poked in the eye several times, elbowed, knee'd to the crotch and had a finger dislocated. ( I will admit that I quit right then and there with the finger dislocation.)
A lot of times with the adrenalin rush you get from rolling you hardly even notice until the match is over. Thats why you do your submissions slowly and under control so that your partner has time to notice the hold and even then cranked elbows are common.
Wrestling does have its weaknesses. To often the head is too low and open for kicks and knees and if you know how to do a guillotine you have a good chance to catch a pure wrestler with one on a single or double.
But this requires that you train with wrestlers. Having someone in your class doing sloppy takedowns will give you a false sense of confidence. A good takedown is FAST.
Good post, m1k1...but so far, Adrian's post has been the best on this thread.
I disagree.
For me, WCK is mainly a stand-up grappling method with strikes, so it combines grappling and striking. As I practice it, the method of WCK is to control my opponent while striking him, and is sort of a dirty-clinch fighting method.
What is chi sao/luk sao but a representation of the clinch (sustained arm contact)?
If you control the opponent, you control his ability to take you down.