Whos going to win?
There's an upcoming fight between Zab Juda and Koasta Tszu next month. I'm putting my money on the thunder from down under!
S.Teebas
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Whos going to win?
There's an upcoming fight between Zab Juda and Koasta Tszu next month. I'm putting my money on the thunder from down under!
S.Teebas
the thunder from down under? Oh my god, I think I just hit cheese-city.
Put your money on Judah. He's got too much speed and pretty good power. I don't think he'll KO Kosta, but he will box away with the win.
i'm backing kostya
__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"
What do you think of boxing as a martial art? As a supplement to other martial arts? Good boxers have some of the strongest punches out there and there footwork is pretty good too. I am thinking of training in boxing (if I can find a place...doesnt seem to be a whole lotta good places to lear MA in Lorain, Ohio) What are the weaknesses you see in boxing? It seems like a pretty good art to me, strong pounches, good footwork, decent blocking, and hard training. I have heard a lot of boxers are xsurprised when they are kicked or taken down because thay have never trained for this. Is the style it self vulnerable to lag attacks and takedowns because of the stances, philosophy, etc. or is it just that boxers don't train for this?
lowsweep
P.S. If anyone knows where i could train boxing within 40 mins of Lorain, Ohio, any help would be greatly appreciated. Cleveland is too far, anything in elyria, lorain, lakewood, etc. would be great. Thanks!
Sorry, I was in a rush, the spelling is terrible...:rolleyes:
Boxing is a sport not an art!
Boxing is a lot of fun. I prefer boxers to the company of a lot of martial arts types due to the intensity of the training.
However, the 'sweet science' has it's limitations. I would look for something more integrated like Muay Thai if I was going down that route.
But if your choice is McDojo or Boxing, do boxing.
Except for pro boxers who focus exclusively on the sport, I am finding more and more boxers that can mix it up. I think the more exposure to other arts there is, the more boxers are prepared for it.
There are other limitations too. Boxing has changed with the evoloution of boxing gloves. Boxers have become headhunters instead of throwing body shots. The head is not a good target for an unconditioned fist.
Its good for a workout, One of the best you can find. Needs leg defenses. Nothing fancy, maybe Wing Chun leg deflections. Possible afew stance changes. Some parrying techniques instead just holding your arms to your body, blindly blocking. Add a few more punches. Keep the evasion training, cant do much better than that. Now theres boxing you can fight with. Additions welcome. Oh yea that reminds me. Train with gloves as little as possible.
I think the sport vs art thing should not discourage you of taking boxing if you like it.If you can punch and parry/dodge punches and move around,you have weapons to respond to an attacker.Of course boxing is not "absolute fighting" as some like to think of their "arts".You have to be aware of take-down,low kicks and attacks etc. Just know that a real situation cannot be predicted or trained for at 100% and anything can happen in a self-defense context.
Boxing will make u sharp and you will be in the best shape of your life. The punches are simple and economical. However as a self defense system...this depends on how THICK your hands are...can u punch a wall several time and not break your hand!? I can't...Mike Tyson couldn't in his street fight with the one boxer...Vitor Belfort broke his hand a few times...even Tank Abbot too. So becareful...Muy Thai teaches boxing tech also...foot work is different to accomodate the knees and elbows...I find it's more complementary for footwork...besides...in the street or bar or club...u won't be dancing around a lot...
Boxing is a hell of a lot of fun. Unless it directly contradicts what you're being taught in your style, you might as well take it. There's no room in boxing for stuff that doesn't work. It's as effective for fighting as any other style you're likely to find.
As a general rule, when I test myself, I test myself against a boxer.
I feel boxing is the best striking art out there. The weaknesses I see are usualy not from the art itself, but from the boxer himself. How he just sticks to what he is taught in the ring, not being flexible in that sense is a real drawback.
I'm lucky to have a father who was a Golden Gloves boxer years ago. I add boxing to my grappling. You have to know how to box with someone, punch, cover, get hit, recover, counter, etc.
Ryu
I agree, mix grappling with boxing, and that is almost teh best foundation for MA training to start on.
Here is the address of a bagua and xingyi school in Vermillion:
Will Duncan
4560 Liberty Ave.
Vermilion, OH 44089
(440) 967-0559
HeBei Hsing-I
Sun Pa-Kua
Yang Tai-Chi
I agree with respect mankind. Boxing is very useful to someone who has a martial artist's mindset. So long as you use mind to apply your boxing skills to every possible situation, it is more than just a sport.
The reason some sport boxers can be beaten by martial artists is because many boxers tend to not mentally prepare themselves for events in places other than the ring.
I have a friend who has taken boxing and he is one tough guy. But he also learned street tactics to back it up because hes smart enough to know that there are no rules to a random fight.
That's how I see it anyways.
I wish I had a boxing gym near me. But my dad used to box for the army, and he's showed me some stuff on the heavy bag. I love the no nonsense approach. If you can box both southpaw and othodox (like a martial artist should be able to) then you've the basis of solid punching. And like someone said, good evasion skills and tactics. I really enjoy doing it on the bag, although my old man says I still look more like a martial artist than a boxer.
You don't need to know how to box in order to be a good puncher, you can learn that from KungFu, but I'm not a KungFu purist anyway so I like the way just being aware of basic boxing skills has affected my kungFu.
*****in'.
:cool:
shaolin36,
that's a useless distinction when the guy has already said he's adding it to complement another style.
stuart b.
Boxing is is one of those arts that so simple, yet so complex.
Plus it can teach you how to really take a shot, and the problems that come from telegraphing.
I highly recommend learning at least the basic concepts.
I think boxing is an execellent training tool. But not enouch techniques are taught to make it a complete art. Obviously to some extent this is because of the rules and equipment used. However, I believe that even within the rules of sport boxing, one could take advantage of the Chinese science of fighting. I am not the most skilled pugilist to be able to test this out, it is more an observation made after watching a lot of Friday night Fights on ESPN2. The overall style is effective, but no one seems to block in such a way that the limb is controlled, rather moving to avoid the blow is emphasized. For example, I am thinking of a fight where the two participants were pretty evenly matched, except one had a really fast jab that he was throwing over and over. Every time he threw, the other guy had to bob and weave, which interupted his forward motion and he just couldn't get in to land a solid shot. If this guy just used a tan sao or any other block, he could have moved in without losing his structure. I believe that studying boxing will improve your Kung Fu and studying Kung Fu will improve your boxing. The weakness in Western Boxing is that blocking is under-emphasized and evasion and covering up is over emphasized. The opposite is true for SOME eastern fighting arts. I think a well-rounded fighter should have both of these tactics in his/her arsenal. -FJ
Hi,
Have you ever tried to block a fast jab, it's nearly immposible. It's simple Physics, action beats reaction 99 % of the time. In the 100 + years of boxing, isn't it strange that nobody in its history has ever used a tan sao or any other traditional block in the ring. Are boxers ignorant? No of course not. Are these techniques illegal, again the answer is no. Boxers dont use these techniques because they have an extremely low percentage chance of working against a trained punch.
Boxing is a martial art. any organised form of fighting is a martial art, even some forms that aren't organised. And there isn't really any weakness, just some people can't handle the training.Its always good to mix boxing with your chosen art. Boxing usualy beats a martial artist in a street fight because they teach the student to adapt insatead of katas that will never work in a street fight.
I disagree, obviously. I spar with my sifu, who trained in Western Boxing and is a skilled and powerful puncher. Yes, I know the feeling of not being able to react in time enough to block a fast punch. That's one of the reasons why we have the option of just moving, just blocking, or blocking + moving. I also know that sometimes the block does work, and if it does you are usually in a good position to counter. I could easily reverse your logic to say that after 2000 years of Wu Shu, blocking is still trained. Are you saying that no one in 2000 years had a trained punch, or everyone was ignorant of punching methods? With regards to the fight I mentioned, the guy ended up losing so it shows that he should have done something different. What would be a mistake is trying to block every jab, the idea is that you pick one, block it and move in + strike before the opponent punches again. And sting them hard so that any punch that's already on the way towards you has no power.
I don't know why no one blocks like that in boxing. The fact is that Western boxing was developed independently from Eastern fighting arts. Although this knowledge has been available for some time (at least since the 70's) boxing coaches haven't caught on. I'm sure that each is following his teacher's method. I know that introducing eastern-style techniques is at least somewhat effective even with heavy gloves on, because I am on the receiving end of it all the time, and occassionally give it out too. But, while I'm on the topic let me opine some more about why this stylistic difference persists.
1. It seems that some western boxers do block, kind of a slapping block like a pak sao or catching the blow on their gloves. This in contrast to some eastern-style blocks which occur ****her away from the body. The reason why any blocking takes place close to the body in Western Boxing is the same reason that the hands are kept closer to the body in the on-guard position. The punch must start from ****her away in order to generate enough force to hit hard, because of the padding in the glove. In Wing Chun we have the option of attacking directly from the block position (tan da, pak da, jut da, etc).
2. Some of the ducking and rolling techiniques a boxer uses to avoid being hit cover up the legal targets well, but expose the back, the back of the head, etc. Crouching also makes the boxer susceptable to kicks.
Here's a thought: Boxers are judged not only by whether they win the fight. A boxer coming up through the ranks must win the fight with style, that being the traditional Western boxing style. Very few people would like to see a fighter with a radically different style. Plus other fighters might avoid fighting this guy because it might not show off their best side.
This is an interesting topic, I'm curious to hear other's opinions regarding this.
-FJ
This is really funny, the word being blanked out above is
f-arther. Check that software, moderators!!
"In the 100 + years of boxing, isn't it strange that nobody in its history has ever used a tan sao or any other traditional block in the ring."
I don't know what a "tan sao" is, but boxers do block punches. Holyfield and Ali both were known for blocking punches with the gloves. I just saw Manfredy do it last night (on tape from an earlier fight). Just covering up boxing style is a kind of block.
By they way, to whoever posted the original method suggesting tan sao, bobbing and weaving doesn't necessarily mean sacrifing forward movement. Watch Tyson's early (late 80's) fights and you'll see what I mean. The weave is actaully often used to close the distance and get inside.
I agree with Mr. Nemo. During my limited exposure to boxing, I have observed and was taught by my grandfather the vast defensive tactics involved in Western Boxing. Their blocks look much more like pats that cut off the angle to the punch, deflecting it slightly away from its intended target.
Also, boxing does teach covering, but there are several different covers that have strengths and weakness. Bobbing and weaving is also an essential skill, but its both offensive and defensive; to slipp a punch, for example.
If you see a fighter who doesn't weave or block or slipp or cover, etc. its probably because he doesn't know it or hasn't effectively added it to his/her arsennal yet. When a fighter is weaving and is off balance, can't move forward or back, has a hard time putting out any offense, that's because he's/she's not bobbing from the legs and the waist; not keeping their head up.
Boxing is an amazing martial art. In the early days (circa Marquis de Queensbury) it had thumb gouges, dirty shot, elbows, grabbing. Put 10oz. gloves on, it will change your approach to fighting. The difference between Judo and Jujitsu I would says are a good comparison to the differences between boxing in the ring today and yesteryear.
If you get the chance to train boxing: Do it. It will make your Kung Fu all the better. Of course, that after you have a good foundation in your style, right.
Well, that's all the hot air I have to give.
"I also know that sometimes the block does work, and if it does you are usually in a good position to counter"
I agree a block may work sometimes, however I will bet any money that it is an extremely lower percentage than using a boxers defence. Also if you do miss the block you are in an extremely vulnerable position unlike the boxer who has his hands up at all times and can recover alot easier.
"I could easily reverse your logic to say that after 2000 years of Wu Shu, blocking is still trained. Are you saying that no one in 2000 years had a trained punch, or everyone was ignorant of punching methods"
There is a HUGE difference here. Boxing is tested in the ring literally hundreds of times everyday against 100% resisting opponents. Wushu on the other hand is not. Boxing is a science in terms, theories are derived in the ring, Wushu again for the most part (save Sanda, Kuoshu) is not. I will take the evidence derived from actuall fighting over 2000 years of passed down traditions anyday.
"What would be a mistake is trying to block every jab, the idea is that you pick one, block it and move in + strike before the opponent punches again."
Which jab do you block? how do you measure which one to. A jab is used mostly to setup and measure, you can bet that the boxer is waiting for a cross-hook combo to finish. Again, action will most of the time beat reaction, and in all the years of competion I have witnessed, wether it be boxing, Thai, MMA I have never seen that happen.
"The punch must start from ****her away in order to generate enough force to hit hard, because of the padding in the glove"
I guess the censored part of the message is f a r t h e r. HAHA, they block out the word f a r t. Anyways, I whole heartedly disagree with this statement, this is such a fallacy that the glove somehow lessens the power of the punch. The hand is taped so it literally feels like cement, then a heavy glove placed on top of that. There is more concussion force generated because of the larger volume of the glove. The glove is there to protect the hand not the head.
"Some of the ducking and rolling techiniques a boxer uses to avoid being hit cover up the legal targets well, but expose the back, the back of the head, etc. Crouching also makes the boxer susceptable to kicks."
Actually i do agree somewhat, boxers do need to adjust there styles for the streets. It is by no way a complete art.
"Boxers are judged not only by whether they win the fight. A boxer coming up through the ranks must win the fight with style, that being the traditional Western boxing style. Very few people would like to see a fighter with a radically different style. Plus other fighters might avoid fighting this guy because it might not show off their best side. "
This is conjecture and untrue, all that really matters is a boxers record and the quality of his opponents. Prince Naseem Hamed is one of the most unorthodox fighters out there yet he was the star of the lighter divisions for sometime. These men are payed huge amounts of money to fight, A boxer can use ANY punching style that he wants. Naturally it would be obvious that a boxer would use what worked.
Some very good threads.
I'd like to discount the notion of boxing's alleged limitation due to it being a sport. When I read that, it’s like paying sales tax. It’s simply has no merit and it sticks up my cra'
Boxing, Tao Kwan Do, Gung fu, they are all one and the same. They teach a person how to best use their body to varying degrees. Most of what I read speaks to an individual’s use of their art. If I took boxing, I could kick some butt. If I took judo, I’d wrap you up like a cheap x-mas gift from every one’s favorite Aunt. Gung fu allows me to count to 4 in Chinese and belong to a cool brotherhood. Oh, and kick some a-s-s.
I could do any one of the above as a sport, if I choose, or not. Most folks I know who take boxing, do so to learn how to defend themselves or to fight otherwords. Sport is a choice. It is a practitioner’s choice to partake in sport. Many choose not to or do both.
I would disagree with the opinion that boxing would enhance a gung fu player's ability to fight. I see it the other way around. Gung fu would be a great choice for a boxer to enhance their skills; if the teacher they choose, teaches how to fight and not concentrate solely on forms and/or weapons.
Of course, this is simply my slanted view on ‘martial arts’.
nospam.
:cool:
Sharky does boxing and used to train Wing Chun, maybe he can give you info/comparation between styles.
I havent read all that you guys wrote, its too much stuff.
But i get the feeling this thread has become contaminated with the "seed of evil", the root of MMA vs KUNG FU all over again
Boxers do block jabs, usually with a slap parry or metal block. Only thing is, when performed with gloves on it pretty much looks like they are just punching each others gloves.
Let's just begin by saying this... I've sparred a lot of Boxers & a lot of MA's, and I have to say that I've never sparred an experienced boxer who can't fight, but I've sparred plenty of "experienced MA's who can't. Learning boxing is a good thing.
BUT
The boxing guard is about as unrealistic as the Tae Kwon Do sport guard in a real fight. It's great to block a nice big 16 oz glove, but a vertical fist fits nicely up in between the forearms (or fists) and tends to smash one squarely in the nose. Speaking from experience here, the receiving end. And they are very vulnerable to leg kicks (obviously) and throws. If you don't believe me put a Thai neck grapple on next time you clinch during sparring.
Another fave is when a boxer is predictably ducking to raise your knee into his duck. it hurrrrts.
I'm not putting crap on boxing. I'm a boxer myself, and I sincerely recommend adding it to your training reigime. But please don't come under the common mistake that boxing is all you need. It is a ring sport, and a good one, but it is not a street art. Try boxing someone with a knife. Plus the biggest s**tter with boxing is:
The bigger guy almost always wins.
Are you always gonna be the bigger guy?
Please don't hit me with statistics of "X beat Y at the hollywood bowl & he's 25 kilos lighter" because that is ring fighting. Big Difference.
Get into the boxing, then once you're proficient, get into the Muay Thai.
My own view, boxing is the best striking form out there. Not saying that a boxer is better than any MA, because alot of boxers a limited by there style. Everyone that submits to one way, and does not reconise that alot of the technique you are taught is not ment for an actual fight, but ment to build atrributes that will be used in a fight is being limited. The sad thing is, it is not the form limiting them, it is there selves.
Thanks for all the replies! I'll pick up boxing if i can find a good place. Mainly what I am interested in boxing is the punching. Boxing punches have better form than a lot of MA because of the way they line up the wrist, arm, and body. If I do take boxing, I will not just be a boxer. Boxing, as I see it, has the best of some aspects of MA,. However, it is severely lacking in others. Lets face it, most boxers don't train to fight somebody who's going to kick low, shoot in, throw, lock, etc. I think it could be extremely effective when paired with another MA that trains for and uses some of boxing's weaknesses. Also, I'd really like to have a way to test and practice what I learn in other MA against a boxer, as some of you have said.
Kungfu cowboy: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIP ON THE SCHOOL do you know much about it? I will go and check it out as soon as I can. Where do you people come up with these places??? I look everywhere, yellow pages, ask people, drive down the road and slam on the breaks every time i see a place...thanks so much
-lowsweep
" So what you wanna know? "
ttt
I am interested in studying western boxing, and I have found a place to take it. However, I have talked to several docters, and almost all say it is going to give me brain damage. I think there is a misconception between training boxing and holyfield and tyson hammering each other to a pulp. I am wondering if the training for boxing includes taking lots of head shots, how long do you train before you start to get hit a lot, and how dangerous is amateur boxing? Amatuer boxing has headgear and it's for points, you don't have to kill the other guy, but still, it looks like most amateur boxers are trying to knock you out with every shot from what I have seen. Also, how effective is the headgear worn by amateur boxers? If I do take boxing, I will probably not be competing as my parents are very much against it (not against full contact sparring, though, go figure). If I just train and do little or no competing, am I still going to get a whole lot of brain damage?
thanks,
adam
If you wear appropriate headgear and follow safety precautions, you should be okay.
I had the same type of questions before I started to train in full contact for awhile. I asked a teacher I had, a clinical neuropsychologist about it. He said that getting hit at all, even lightly over a long period of time can cause damage. Of course, I wasn't getting whacked in the head with a bat, so I wasn't too worried about it. I think that getting hit in the head every once in a while won't cause too much damage, at least I hope not, haha.
uhh, i dont c wut da big deal is guys. i been boxing fer a long time and i ain't no worse for it! Just kidding! Practice smart and don't take too much, quit if it gets bad. It's great fun and I learned alot from it.