got bored, did a video on how to develop chain punching....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJRLK_4zy10
Printable View
got bored, did a video on how to develop chain punching....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJRLK_4zy10
This video helps to explain how Wing Chun chain punching is actually done and the proper way to develop it. All to often, people try to use pure speed and muscle and just simply blitz the non-confrontational opponent. But realistically people do fight back. Attacking done right is not a numbers game where you throw 10 attacks and hope 2 to 3 will land. The right mentality for a Wing Chun fighter is not being wasteful like a solider with a gatling gun who simply has fire power but waste rounds of ammunition. Instead you are a sniper, where almost every attack is almost guaranteed to hit and where you don't fire to waste bullets. The first drill is called freeze frame drill, in this simple concept drill, one attacks the other blocks, but only after the hit, giving the blocker the development of seeing how to regain the line, and the attacker time to also figure out where the nearest line of attack is. Once the drill can be done properly you take it to the next level, once you attack, the blocker once again tries to block, but by the time he initiates the block, you takeover his motion and throw your next attack. You then continue this process over and over again. In the end, you want to develop the skill, were you throw out an attack and can just rain it upon your opponent, who will never have the ability to block your attack, since your always one step ahead of him. In the end, this is what chain punching is really like in Wing Chun and one of the ways to develop it. And a closer glimpse as to how to apply your sticky hand skills in real fighting situations
wrong thinking, your "partner" should be striking you back with "chain punches" the drills show unaligned counter striking. NOT doing kwan sao :D guys who use kwan sao havent really gotten the whole idea...sorry. A few seconds trying to punch me in th face will prove the 'idea' :D
try to angle your selves with movement and striking to create a flanking attacking angle with a striking arm alone, then if contact is made , like a X'ing wrists as each partner strikes, then the more experienced/faster reacting partner will jut sao and remove the jutting hand as the following hand strikes and takes the lead line of attack , while the jutting hand cycles back to wu sao to make the next attack, etc.... depending on the angles each of you make trying to vie for a position in a face off using side stances and mobility to feint with movement etc...prior to striking.
1. There's no such thing as chain punching--there is Chun punching..
2. Fan sao with various strikes and techniques is not "chain punching" either.
3. If you're going to do Chun attacks and chun counters might as well do ChiSao..a real opponent will never react like that.
4.. If you're going to do ChiSao, Chun techniques, punching, etc breaking structure and body power is key..not "blocking"...
5. And as usual too many choppy chop chops...
You guys really don't give anyone a chance do you??! :rolleyes: I'm sure we're all masters of ourselves, but how about more constructive assistance?
Firstly, YungChun, there is 'chain' punching in what I do, although the term I would use is 'linked' or 'continuous'. It's called 'Lien Wan Chun Kuen'.
I like Kevs proposal, as this sounds like one of my first partner drills for chunkuen, forearm to forearm, left to right contact. BUT I would also suggest developing your chunkuen on the wooden man.
All this negativity towards quansau is silly imo. For me, quansau rocks! :D
**** k_g... your like a kwan sau killer.... LOL:)
the 'chain punch" isnt a fist after fist, its arms aligned with elbows to develop a forearm angled enough to create a defensive line AS you each strike at one another....if you make contact while striking along the centerline , then you jut , pak etc....
Kwan sao is a low bong done on the dummy for ballistic displacement, tan sao is a punching energy ..each is cycling into and out of attacks or defensive partnerships on the dummy. Dont think of 'snap shot' poses . kwan sao is bad
1) turning inside the opponents range of fire to chase an arm with 2
2) using 2 arms to fight a simple punch
3) tan sao strikes using the elbow to spread off the line as it strikes forwards not a lateral block.
4) we only turn to face the opponents positions as they move, not to redirect force.
5) each partner should be helping the other to make attacking actions in every move at each other.
'nuff said about kwan sao.:D if I can occupy you with one arm and you have to use 2 to fight my one ...well :D
we do continuous punching but with the VT idea about elbows etc... low elbows make good bridging forearm angles to attack with and create natural barriers to our OWN centerline as we enter to attack one another...like creating an intersection of potential lines of force to connect with, our arms maintain center to strike along the invisible line we train along in forms etc...
the forearms left to right are , outside fore arm = tan sao strike / inside fore arm jum sao strike
dan chi-sao is this introduction to opposite energy of vt striking drill. Each strikes to the center but first adopting the starting point of the elbows ....strike versus strike tan elbow tries to displace the jums forearm/elbow, the jum sao tries to deflect the tan strike by simply holding the elbow inwards, while pointing the fingers at the guys center....redundant due to the fact that once you learn the striking of each energy, you dont punch in the same 1-2 sequence, you simply use striking attacks with 'inbuilt' unseen energy capable of maintaining line defense integrity while blasting into the opponent at tactical angles etc...very subtle angling is done.
once this idea is used you wont ever leave the center line to chase or over turn, because your giving the striker the next opening by your movement alone from the line to chase the incoming attacking action and responding with defensive actions alone or moving to much [turning] to avoid the attack rather than ...attack the attack.
I guess it is when you have such a narrow viewpoint of what it is! :rolleyes:
Seriously, is this your interpretation of quansau and what iti is used for?? It's correct in a very basic way, but there is so much more to it imo. The postures of Wing Chun (two handed postures that is) are very precise and without training or drilling them correctly you have a chance of missing what the signature of our style actually is...
Just food for thought. ;)
It's funny seeing everyone argue what is or isn't wing chun...seems that everyone knows the "right" way. :rolleyes:
Chain punching in it's purest form--is linked punches is it not? Isn't that what the translation is from Chinese? So how is it that all of you have such different ideas as to what it "truly" is and what it should be? They are punches done in succession, one after the other, in a broad sense.
That's why the wing chun system as a whole will NEVER progress to an elite and proven form of fighting...too many people who are too big for their britches.
Hyperbolic nonsense.
So disagreement is at the root of what's wrong with the Chun world? Yeah lmfao.
Yes we should all be singing the same song and folks need to get their core straight..
There are after all certain basic things all Chun must have.. When most of that core is not there it probably should be addressed.. (ya think) If it isn't then there's no chance of ever having your choir of agreement, that you say is required for Chun to be an "elite and proven" art.. :rolleyes:
Yes however "Chain punching" seems to infer in action and thought that CPing is "a thing to do" like the "crazy eggbeater attack" or some kind of fixed method or how Chun fights...it is not, it's just more than one fist (strike) following .
ah the internet is so entertaining
May not be the root cause, but it's a symptom that's hard to ignore.Quote:
So disagreement is at the root of what's wrong with the Chun world?
Its the fact that guys still think the chain punch/eggbeater is VT that amuses me...ed's vid is another to the list of :o works against your friends :D
chain punching in its purest form its root is based on what two basic striking energy's ?
the most basic thing we do, we start the SLT with them, we do dan chi-sao with them, we do chi-sao with them, we do the dummy with them together for alignment...
still think its fists on a straight line ...A to B :D really fast ! take that ! eggbeater from hell comin at ya ...too funny.
Keep watching you may learn something to teach your students....really,... making your student/partner do a kwan sao as a counter attacking action...which part of kwan is attacking me ?....you wouldnt last 1 second of a sparring match...serious. All I would have to do is feint a punch and you would turn with 2 hands....no ? you dont think so ? :D too funny. VT proving is EVIL !
Tan sao never leaves the centerline because its a punch....jum sao never leaves the centerline. because its apunch..these are the 2 striking forces that control the alignment of our strikes. We spend our whole training lives perfecting their alignment drilling, for sparring for fighting...the dummy alignment, cycling rotation of attacking actions ... We do the same energy tan/jum for each arm so we can 'face' and fire at either angle to the opponent...seamless punching energy transfers to become either tan 'elbow spreads' or jum elbow inwards...each striking as they use the elbow idea....attacking simultaneously. Efficiency , directness, blah blah blah
Hey Edward,
Good on you for putting your thoughts out and creating material for discussion.
No one is 100 percent right, nor 100 percent wrong. Discussions should really be more scientific and objective instead of "I'm better than you!" or "I'm right, you are wrong." Unfortunately we get plenty of that.
One question, what if the opponent decides to grab both your arms instead of blocking you one arm at a time?
Cheers,
John
Its time i made a video....you guys are on my side ..partners , like it or not we are a family.
maybe you can see what Im talking about in actions. I feel silly berating you, when you cant even evaluate my input properly, visually and with detailed input.
There are varying levels of VT....your nose is your guide, like mine.
actions speak louder than woids...
Cool KG, looking forward to that.
Kwan Sau is a combination of Bong Sau and a punch. It is performed on the Dummy the way it is because the Dummy is fixed......as it is with many actions in the form that cannot be performed correctly.
Kwan Sau = 50% Bong Sau 50% Strike. Anybody that is posing with Kwan Sau and trying to manipulate or control peoples arms with it need to step outside the Chi Sau bubble. That stuff don't work in reality.
GH
If your opponent tries to grab both your arms then maybe he is a little stupid. When you fight somebody they have one thing in mind. To land anything possible on you they can. Ving Tsun is a tool to help you deal deal with this mess. There would be nothing more pleasing for somebody to try and grab my arms in a fight. It would make it easier for me to box there ears in....:)
GH
And that's just the way it is... There is a ton of inconsistency in what is called Wing Chun because there are no standards, no checks and balances, no real qualifications. You mainly have a whole lot of folks who heard this, or heard that, that have no real experience...
There are certain basics that are often ignored, correct (or any) body power generation, structure destruction, connected and correct use of tools, training to work with real energy and release of power, even in the classical training, etc--it's clearly missing..
We see many examples of Chun on the net with no power, no body connection, no structure destruction, and instead slap happy/chop happy poses and methods that allow folks to "win" or look good in ChiSao (tag), etc.. That's why none of this will never even be seen in any fight because it doesn't address what happens in fights or what's needed to win fights...
Agreement is great... but agreement on things where the core is missing or ignored won't help anyone or any art reach any level of success..
Bah, you pansies !!
http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/r...n1/ipkilik.gif
@john the drill i showed is a basic way of doing it, eventually depending on your level different scenarios can be added in from grabbing the hands (i guess its possible someone would be dumb enough to do this) to shooting at your legs and grappling, etc, etc......
Posture Kev. Not pose! ;) I never suggested I could 'do what I like' either, but I think most of what I write here is just misinterpreted.
Quansau is specific. Even the NAME means something, and I'll let you in on a little secret. There is NOTHING that states that quansau is used to attack two arms with one. There is NOTHING to suggest that both arms move at the same time. And there is absolutley NOTHING that suggests that you only practise this posture when you learn the 108 MYJ! :rolleyes: Seriously misguided info imho.
Why don't you ask him to come and see me?! You seem so keen for me to visit his school and offer some sort of challenge out to him dude. You like to stand behind your elders or something? :p
Thanks GH :)
Ok, what about if someone decides to take a couple of your punches and wrap you up and throw you to the ground? Typical jujitsu type scenario.
In my opinion, if we train our strikes effectively, the opponent would fall before being able to pull us down. But what if the opponent is used to taking punches? Do we have a back-up plan since we are not ground fighting specialists?
Cheers,
John
Many of my fights started with my wrists either both being grabbed, or the lead man sao while the guy/s would come low to make a strike...i used open palm strikes to good effect on the top of their heads for a stunning concussion. Or I would simply use the pressure sense we get from the seung ma toi ma to 'feel thier energy pulses as they tried to push me. I would use thier timing to make my move, sometimes to break out of the grabs to hit them, or let them grab my wrists knowing they couldnt hit me until they let go :D funny but after a while if a guy grabs the wrists its like okay now what ? :D head butts worked, elbows...
Bil gees lowering elbows are wrist grab escapes, even from 2 grabs with your back against a wall its very easy to regain your freedom from the grabs and continue...also a lan sao can be used with turning stances to simply put your elbow over their forearm as they push you...similar to chum kil....you can then take the energy of their pushing and keep them going into a wall etc...trap them and hit them or wait for ...assistance :D
Lop sao drills also have tying up methods to trap a grabber who doesnt let go of your bong wrist....
why we dont grab except for lop, bad habit.
Man there's no shortage in humor
i know you keep cracking me up......i wish i can write as much as you and show zero at the same time.. that's skill..:D
thanks !:D
John
I'm not sure using the words..."If someone decides"......As my Instructor says....there is no time in fighting to think. Chi Sau gives us the tools to react instinctively hopefully using the correct action to shut down your opponent by attacking. Your thinking is correct by stating that we must train our strikes. Ving Tsun is a method of using the whole body for punching. Attention should be given to training the punch. The whole system exercises this idea.
Nobody is superhuman. If we are out fought then its just not our day. Bil Jee tells this. We must use brains to cut ones losses. The best back up plan is to run away!!!!!:)
GH
"What if he does this ? " fighting is arm chair battling...what if they pull a gun or a knife ?
What if there are 2-3 more guys and your back is against the wall ? What if there are 2-3 or more of you and 5-6 of them with bottles , knives, crowd fighting in a chaotic environment ? Yes, sometimes you have to run, because the guy your trying to fight took off down the street when you started to attack him ;) Its not always US that has to run from a fight.:D
Vt is like being a psycho attacker, caution has to be taken before witnesses , due to the fact that even though you may be the one 'defending ' oneself, it looks to outsiders like a guy shoved you and you annihilated him for it with raining punches and kicks as he tries to get away from you...sometimes running away.
I have been involved in fights like this, where the 'good guys' vt friends , got involved defending waiters at a regular local Chinese restaurant we ate at from drunken 'suits' trying to fight them for 'sport' ....the vt guys got arrested for being seen as the ones beating the others up by witnesses :D. Jail for the good guys! defending the waiters because they had become so violent in their abilities to defend themselves they appeared to be the 'aggressors' .
Mental attitudes change as you fight more, you become less inclined to wait for guys to even have a chance to 'shape up' or make a first move on you. At the first sign of trouble or someone in 'your face' the vt 'welcome mat' is unleashed and its over before it ever got going.
Experience will be the only way to gain this personal level of knowing when to deliver a preemptive strike. Making whatever the guy does less of an issue because they are dealing with a broken jaw, nose, concussion....or a change in attitude to getting close to you again :D
Like GH mentions , sometimes the Bear wins.
"if someone decides" is, of course, a figure of speech.
In my opinion, there is no such thing as "excessive force" when your life in on the line. Unfortunately, the public, the jury, and people who had never been in a fight very often do not understand this.
In a real fight, unless the person is a seasoned fighter, most of us would be running on adrenaline and not brains. It is natural that an animal would do whatever to survive.