What the F^ck is wrong with modern martial art?

In the formative years of my generation we were force fed manners. Yes sir, no mamma were the first words out of your mouth or you got the back hand. Now a day young people have no respect for adults and are openly contemptuous of elderly folks.
Then again who can blame them. Role models are far and few between.

And now here we are in the realm of the modern Gladiator. Steroids, tight pants some chain link and the spectacle is on. I have been trying to put a finger on where the mannerless unskilled windbags were coming from on this forum and suddenly i spied the culprit.

The MMA Paradyne....

Training martial skill without balancing the mind or tempering the ego.
The rules are simple:
Fight fight fight, kill kill kill, techniques galor, no art to speak of just entertainment for the dirty masses.

The MMA touting buffoons who populate this forum go on about the fact that if you are not in a life or death struggle with another scantly clad steroid gladiator resisting your amorous advances then your martial art ain't real and you are waisting your time. or if you have not "fought full contact" to entertain an audience populated by blood luting cowards You suck suck suck.

If you listen to the ones “subtly” promoting their business with "stealth" and "cunning" their arguments are so persuasive along with forum members who respect them (who in reality are their friends / business partners/ a ss pal) you might even doubt yourself since by nature we all bend to conformity to "fit in"?

Fact is the majority of these guys are either A.) confused military paper pushers somewhere in the rear with the gear wasting military net bandwith on facebook and kungfumagazine forums, B.) disgruntled former TCMA practitioners who studied for decades giving away a fortune only to discover they learned the special “quai low” fist while their asian classmates got the real behind closed doors.. (these people do the most damage to the reputation of gung fu, well them and their greedy racists teachers.) and last but not least the C.) the martial art butterfly, cowards who lack dedication, fortitude, backbone, character, morality never stuck with any system more than a few months. A little JKD here, a few dog brothers bruises there, some bodies in motion cardio kick boxing brewed up with the pathetic aping of the good old BJJ. The biggest belly laugh is these low level skill less wannabes hanging off of the formidable Gracie nut hairs claiming greatness via proxy. History has shown us its share of great tough men who go into the world and rip out a place in the sun. Then their spoiled children who knowing only the good life matriculate into useless spineless full of noise all bark no bite shadows of their progenitors.

The cross road on the path in a life of martial art is where one either chooses to focus on brawn and brute force emphasizing “what works” driven by ruthless intent void of the very concept of compassion.

These men are strong and formidable until suddenly as they age (badly) they develop back problems, hair loss, knee problems, mental illness, post traumatic stress syndrome. internal disfunction, liver cancer, followed by sudden chronic dispersion of muscular energy, deterioration of mental function followed by death.

At this same cross road there is the choice of self cultivation via martial art. Regimen of meditation, flexibility maintenance, internal cultivation, conscious exercise in breath control, healing arts, self reflection, music studies, writing, poetry, deductive reasoning, self reflection coupled with consistent daily martial cultivation in open hand and weapons. A vast majority of these people radiate health, are calm, kind, skilled and refined in combat as the radiate compassion and empathy.

Naturally both these examples are broad generalizations in the big picture yet I can bare witness to many friends and class mates who are healthy active fighters at 60, 70, 80 and 90+. A dear friend dedicated to martial art and yoga passed recently at 94. Very flexible and moved with energy and steadiness.

Getting to my point:
One of the sad things about this forum IMHO is a lack of respect in our exchanges with one another. Yes there are trolls, comedians and trouble makers that are outnumbered by gentleman practitioners and enthusiasts.

As much as we disagree in discussion we all gather here because of our common interest in martial art. No matter what system you practice, if you have any type of skill it did not come easy. This is our bond of commonality. We can all relate from our shared experience of bitter work on the path to skill.

Respect?
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Wu De translates as a Martial Code of Conduct.

Wu De is the Chinese martial arts code of appropriate social interaction. Ethics and etiquette is ingrained not only in the culture of China but also pervades throughout the philosophy that holds the society together.

There are five points in Wu De: Respect, Humility, Trust, Virtue, and Honor.

Respect (Zun Jing; 尊敬)
The term respect means to acknowledge the feelings and interests of another in a relationship and treating the other at a standard that rules out selfish behavior. Respect is derived not by behavior but by one's attitude. Respect is appreciated as demonstrating a sense of worth or value of a person, a personal quality or ability. In martial arts, respect is the cornerstone of all the teachings of martial arts. In regards to Wu De, respect begins with the individual and manifests outward meaning that those who respect themselves as well as others will, in turn, be respected. Respect must be earned as well as displayed. This is why we bow and why we use titles.

Humility (Qian Xu; 谦逊)

The term humility is the quality or characteristic of a person that is unpretentious and modest. Humility comes with controlling ones pride and ego. Pride and ego are the killers of good martial arts and good character. When we allow our own pride and ego to infiltrate our rational judgment we start to make decisions based on self-pride and not solid facts. When your ego and pride take over you will become satisfied with yourself and stop thinking deeply. Try daily to display humility in everything you do. Train for yourself and not the title or color around your waist. Keep your cup of tea empty allowing yourself to always learn.
"The taller the bamboo grows, the lower it bows." - Chinese Proverb

Trust (Xin Yong: 信用)

Who do you trust? Do people trust you? Trust is the belief that a person is of good character and will seek to fulfill promises, policies, ethical codes, and the law. In martial arts, we make a promise to ourselves, the school, and the teacher. When starting a school or job there are underlying trusts that both parties expect to have in place such as safety, compensation, and knowing what is in each others best interest. In martial arts it is a breach of trust to ask for more knowledge from the instructor. Excessive questioning suggests that the student knows the material well enough to advance. Advancing is at the discretion of the instructor, not the student.
Understand that sometimes routine instruction is for your own good as it allows you to become proficient at the art. Trust the path you take is the right one. At times instruction may seem to contradict itself. Know that perceived contradiction is one-dimensional. The instruction you receive is designed to help you navigate the correct concepts of the art.

Honor (Rong Yu; 榮譽)

Martial art has many strong connections to honor. We honor our art, ourselves, and our ancestors by showing loyalty and having the will to train while simultaneously maintaining wisdom about our training. To give loyalty is to honor the art through belief in the practices and wisdom of the people that have lived and died in perfecting the art so that it could be passed on to future generations. We should honor the people who came before us not because they were all superior but rather as Sir Isaac Newton said: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
Virtue (Dao De; 道德)

The idea of virtue in Chinese thought pertains to the notion of character. Framework for this concept is given through the four classical virtues of; temperance, prudence, courage, and justice.

Temperance is moderation. When we engage in any activity we should approach it with moderation in order to maintain rationality and balance in every facet of our world. Martial arts will enrich our life, not necessarily consume it. One of the goals in martial arts is to take the knowledge and self-discovery from the training hall and apply its principles to daily life.

Prudence is the act of having sound judgment over all ones affairs in life. In life it is prudent to look at situations that manifest and show wisdom and insight by drawing on facts, knowledge, and experience. It is ideal to be mindful and weigh the outcome of any action.

Courage is the ability to act when confronted by fear. Fear can be physical and mental. The former entails being frightened by the environment, a person, or a thing. The latter concerns mainly a fear of failure. With martial arts one can move through life with courage by accepting its challenges and not being tied down by fear.
The notion of Justice has been debated for over 2500 years. A wise master asks that the individual applies justice by reviewing the facts, the research,and then taking the course of action that he/she knows within their heart as correct.
Justice combines all virtues and components of Wu De into one application. To apply Wu De in our everyday life is being just. As martial artists we should hold ourselves to a very high standard of character.
Lao Shi Yungeberg


I apologize for my playful jabs at some of the most obnoxious in our group but I hope these words may act as a catalyst guide toward a more harmonious interacting in our discussions?


Peace

PS
I predict this post will naturally be followed by a brigade of morons posting absolute nonsense unrelated to the original post....

I found a video of your deadly heart ripping kung fu man you were talking about. Actually this guy is even better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wMWY7lT1ik

1) if you dont like MMA and the guys here who study it dont reply its that simple life is too short to worry about this stuff

2) respect my backside its the respect issue and not questioning the teacher or his methods that got TCMA into the position its in (not all TCMA but the majority of what we see out there)

3) most of the TCMA guys i know who can fight and who i have heard about are not exactly followers if the code you talk about

4) asking questions about how you train and why you train and asking for proof it works is hardly the worset thing in the world to do, if Dav id Rosses teacher is anything to go by the old guys did this when they were young and were not that respectiful when seeing if the prospective teacher actually had something to offer

Honestly you make some valid points and I cannot argue with a lot of what you said. However, I would not be so eager to lump all MMA fighters into a category of blood thirsty gladiators with no respect. Most fighters learn humility and respect through training, winning, and losing. It is the Tapout wearing wannabe mouthboxers who give many of them a bad name.

It's funny, at the gym I work out at, (fitness gym, not martial arts gym) they have a heavy bag I use quite often. A lot of younger guys will come up to me and tell me about how they either train in MMA or want to train in MMA. I will listen to them, sometimes give advice if they ask, but what I always find paculiar is when they ask what I train in. I always tell them, Kung Fu. It is my base art and what I do the most of. I have trained in other arts, but Kung Fu is what I am.

Almost all of them tell me they thought I was either a kickboxer or Muay Thai practioner. Maybe it is because they have been force fed an ideology that those two striking arts, along with boxing, are the be all end all and nothing else can get it done. Unfortunately I believe the younger generation has been brain washed into believing all traditional martia arts are worthless. So in some ways, they are only regurgitating what wrong information they were taught. Of course, the same can be said for Kung Fu and those who preach to their students how combat sports are bloodthirsty modern gladiators with no respect or humility. Just food for thought.;)

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Originally Posted by Iron_Eagle_76

Honestly you make some valid points and I cannot argue with a lot of what you said. However, I would not be so eager to lump all MMA fighters into a category of blood thirsty gladiators with no respect. Most fighters learn humility and respect through training, winning, and losing. It is the Tapout wearing wannabe mouthboxers who give many of them a bad name.

It's funny, at the gym I work out at, (fitness gym, not martial arts gym) they have a heavy bag I use quite often. A lot of younger guys will come up to me and tell me about how they either train in MMA or want to train in MMA. I will listen to them, sometimes give advice if they ask, but what I always find paculiar is when they ask what I train in. I always tell them, Kung Fu. It is my base art and what I do the most of. I have trained in other arts, but Kung Fu is what I am.

Almost all of them tell me they thought I was either a kickboxer or Muay Thai practioner. Maybe it is because they have been force fed an ideology that those two striking arts, along with boxing, are the be all end all and nothing else can get it done. Unfortunately I believe the younger generation has been brain washed into believing all traditional martia arts are worthless. So in some ways, they are only regurgitating what wrong information they were taught. Of course, the same can be said for Kung Fu and those who preach to their students how combat sports are bloodthirsty modern gladiators with no respect or humility. Just food for thought.;)

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This is not the point of this thread but I am just responding to your point. The kung fu I used to train in combined elements of muay thai into it making for better kicks and elbows. This combination made for a better striking system overall.

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Originally Posted by Lokhopkuen

In the formative years of my generation we were force fed manners. Yes sir, no mamma were the first words out of your mouth or you got the back hand. Now a day young people have no respect for adults and are openly contemptuous of elderly folks.
Then again who can blame them. Role models are far and few between.

And now here we are in the realm of the modern Gladiator. Steroids, tight pants some chain link and the spectacle is on. I have been trying to put a finger on where the mannerless unskilled windbags were coming from on this forum and suddenly i spied the culprit.

The MMA Paradyne....

Training martial skill without balancing the mind or tempering the ego.
The rules are simple:
Fight fight fight, kill kill kill, techniques galor, no art to speak of just entertainment for the dirty masses.

The MMA touting buffoons who populate this forum go on about the fact that if you are not in a life or death struggle with another scantly clad steroid gladiator resisting your amorous advances then your martial art ain't real and you are waisting your time. or if you have not "fought full contact" to entertain an audience populated by blood luting cowards You suck suck suck.

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LOL... there have always been systems that trained primarily for full contact... boxing, wrestling, judo, MT, Sambo.

And guess, what? They always thought the LARPer's sucked.

It's nothing new and it has nothing to do with MMA.

Lokhopkuen,

The martial arts are not around to teach us manners and morality about if we should fight or not.

You mentioned that mma guys were less mannered than kung fu guys. This has nothing to do with mma. I think it is a generational thing.

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Originally Posted by MysteriousPower

This is not the point of this thread but I am just responding to your point. The kung fu I used to train in combined elements of muay thai into it making for better kicks and elbows. This combination made for a better striking system overall.

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Muay Thai and boxing both improved techniques I had learned in Kung Fu due to their training methods. This is often the point I try to make is that Kung Fu has many of these great techniques, but other systems train them more effectively.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MysteriousPower

I found a video of your deadly heart ripping kung fu man you were talking about. Actually this guy is even better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wMWY7lT1ik

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The fact that there is so much of this is the thing in TMA's is what the OP should be railing to the gods about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iron_Eagle_76

Honestly you make some valid points and I cannot argue with a lot of what you said. However, I would not be so eager to lump all MMA fighters into a category of blood thirsty gladiators with no respect. Most fighters learn humility and respect through training, winning, and losing. It is the Tapout wearing wannabe mouthboxers who give many of them a bad name.

It's funny, at the gym I work out at, (fitness gym, not martial arts gym) they have a heavy bag I use quite often. A lot of younger guys will come up to me and tell me about how they either train in MMA or want to train in MMA. I will listen to them, sometimes give advice if they ask, but what I always find paculiar is when they ask what I train in. I always tell them, Kung Fu. It is my base art and what I do the most of. I have trained in other arts, but Kung Fu is what I am.

Almost all of them tell me they thought I was either a kickboxer or Muay Thai practioner. Maybe it is because they have been force fed an ideology that those two striking arts, along with boxing, are the be all end all and nothing else can get it done. Unfortunately I believe the younger generation has been brain washed into believing all traditional martia arts are worthless. So in some ways, they are only regurgitating what wrong information they were taught. Of course, the same can be said for Kung Fu and those who preach to their students how combat sports are bloodthirsty modern gladiators with no respect or humility. Just food for thought.;)

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I was being camp. Tiny bit of humor;)
I love all martial art, I am however a bit tired of people touting their superiority over the internet.

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Originally Posted by Knifefighter

LOL... there have always been systems that trained primarily for full contact... boxing, wrestling, judo, MT, Sambo.

And guess, what? They always thought the LARPer's sucked.

It's nothing new and it has nothing to do with MMA.

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I love how you've aligned yourself with them all while having nothing to do with them.
THAT'S LARP BUDDY BOY:D

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Originally Posted by Lokhopkuen

I love how you've aligned yourself with them all while having nothing to do with them.
THAT'S LARP BUDDY BOY:D

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Methinks we know who the larper is here.

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Originally Posted by Frost

1) if you dont like MMA and the guys here who study it dont reply its that simple life is too short to worry about this stuff

2) respect my backside its the respect issue and not questioning the teacher or his methods that got TCMA into the position its in (not all TCMA but the majority of what we see out there)

3) most of the TCMA guys i know who can fight and who i have heard about are not exactly followers if the code you talk about

4) asking questions about how you train and why you train and asking for proof it works is hardly the worset thing in the world to do, if Dav id Rosses teacher is anything to go by the old guys did this when they were young and were not that respectiful when seeing if the prospective teacher actually had something to offer

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Brother I love and respect all martial art and have dedicated myself to only one.
I have nothing against MMA personally. Watching has been very educational.
I do have a problem with MMA people who yammer about how bad assed they are on internet forums.

People seem to be over looking the main thrust of my post.
Community based on respectful mutual interest.

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Originally Posted by Knifefighter

Methinks we know who the larper is here.

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Yea invited you to meet me and you cheesed:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Lokhopkuen

Yea invited you to meet me and you cheesed:rolleyes:

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Um, no, you cheesed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MysteriousPower

This is not the point of this thread but I am just responding to your point. The kung fu I used to train in combined elements of muay thai into it making for better kicks and elbows. This combination made for a better striking system overall.

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You don't know a thing about martial arts, do you:cool:

Pretty cool post there LokHop,

I like a lot of what you said about Wu De, except the part about trust.... Doubt is the mother of the scientific method and its what allows us to exceed. If you trust your teacher implicitly you will only ever get close to his level. If you doubt him and seek better answers and methods you will exceed past him. Even if Zhang San Feng himself was teaching me I would still question his method.

Stereotypes are off course not true in all cases, but there is always some truth to them, and thats why they exist. I would say in my experience that anyone who excels at something does not conform to the stereotype. But I would say I beleive that there is a division between the type of people who do MMA and those who do TCMA. Off course the majority of people do not conform to this, but enough do to make it noticeable. Tongue in cheek as your comment was there is an element of truth.

Having been exposed to BOTH TMA and SMA ( Sport MA) I can say this:
BOTH have their noble warriors and BOTH have their larping *******s and NEITHER has a monopoly on either.

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Originally Posted by Lokhopkuen

The MMA Paradyne....

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WTF is a paradyne? One of these?

http://service.pcconnection.com/imag...51eded629b.jpg

Interesting thing about humility, once you realize you have it, you lose it.

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Originally Posted by Yung Apprentice

Interesting thing about humility, once you realize you have it, you lose it.

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This.

There is an inherent contradiction in posting about lofty ideals such as humility, honor and respect, then immediately proceeding to flame someone on another thread with profane insults, egotistical self promotion and outright threats.

An often over looked but no less vital part of 武得; the posting on public forums of pornography. Lots of pornography.

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originally posted by master killer
the mma paradyne....
Wtf is a paradyne? One of these?

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lol you cold man you!

"C.) the martial art butterfly, cowards who lack dedication, fortitude, backbone, character, morality never stuck with any system more than a few months. A little JKD here, a few dog brothers bruises there, some bodies in motion cardio kick boxing brewed up with the pathetic aping of the good old BJJ. The biggest belly laugh is these low level skill less wannabes hanging off of the formidable Gracie nut hairs claiming greatness via proxy. History has shown us its share of great tough men who go into the world and rip out a place in the sun. Then their spoiled children who knowing only the good life matriculate into useless spineless full of noise all bark no bite shadows of their progenitors."

That's god**** poetry....

EO

forgot to take his meds guys... and his therapist couldn't meet with him last night so he's on his "blame everyone else rant today".

It is fans who make the most noise.

Football players don't say and do the outrageous things their fans do.

MMA fighters are like Tradiitonal fighters. A fighter is a fighter after all. They really don't engage too much in the kind of vitriol we all bathe in over here at KFM with it's constant ruckus of trollshido jerks vs Kung Fu hippies. lol

At least half the group belongs here and understands some of the subject matter.

Meanwhile, the other half is waiting to shout at their tv during the next ufc televised spectacle! woot.

the more things change, the more they stay the same as they ever were. :p

as for you guys going on the hardest and the loudest about character development, it is not hard to see in many of your posts that you have the least amount of that and perhaps could use some instruction in how to be tactful, how to show a little respect towards a differing viewpoint, how to be polite and so on, because it is glaringly obvious that this has not been instilled in you.

complain as you will. Meanwhile, I am going to practice my traditional, deep and meaningful chinese martial arts. :)

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

It is fans who make the most noise.

Football players don't say and do the outrageous things their fans do.

MMA fighters are like Tradiitonal fighters. A fighter is a fighter after all. They really don't engage too much in the kind of vitriol we all bathe in over here at KFM with it's constant ruckus of trollshido jerks vs Kung Fu hippies. lol

At least half the group belongs here and understands some of the subject matter.

Meanwhile, the other half is waiting to shout at their tv during the next ufc televised spectacle! woot.

the more things change, the more they stay the same as they ever were. :p

as for you guys going on the hardest and the loudest about character development, it is not hard to see in many of your posts that you have the least amount of that and perhaps could use some instruction in how to be tactful, how to show a little respect towards a differing viewpoint, how to be polite and so on, because it is glaringly obvious that this has not been instilled in you.

complain as you will. Meanwhile, I am going to practice my traditional, deep and meaningful chinese martial arts. :)

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Did you not discover after your thread that whining does not do anything? Take the beating like a man, get up, and walk away.

It is easy to show and teach how to fight or how to kill

it is not easy to teach ethics or moralities.

your personalities and characters are part of your upbringing from parents, families, relatives, friends since kidhood.


it is easy to teach how to fish

it is not easy to teach "catch and release"

that is why some peep will fish without lure and hook and with only a stick and a line

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teaching morals and culture for money lol what r u guys scientologists?

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Originally Posted by bawang

teaching morals and culture for money lol what r u guys scientologists?

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Bawang has wanged the correct once again !

problem i have wit american kung fu is everyone is a winner. no matter how much ur student suck ass, unless he pedofile or something they never get kicked out. american sifus are too desperate for students.
american kung fu people always see kung fu thru the tainted eyes of an american. they never learned anything about chinese culture

By all means, if some of you insist on being how you are in regards to how you communicate with others, that's fine.

Truthfully, you will have more doors closed to you and even less understanding than you have now.

enjoy your workouts. I enjoy mine!

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Originally Posted by bawang

problem i have wit american kung fu is everyone is a winner. no matter how much ur student suck ass, unless he pedofile or something they never get kicked out. american sifus are too desperate for students.
american kung fu people always see kung fu thru the tainted eyes of an american. they never learned anything about chinese culture

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what is there to learn pray tell?

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problem i have wit american kung fu is everyone is a winner.

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people in america do think this. That's the problem. The heart of the problem. Because everyone is not a winner. You always have to have a loser. Promoting yourself to always believing you are always a winning is a very dangerous thought pattern. Makes you over confident, arrogant, egotistical etc. The major problems americans have today. Most people from other countries b!tch at americans for this very thing. America is full of itself with little to no humility.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

By all means, if some of you insist on being how you are in regards to how you communicate with others, that's fine.

Truthfully, you will have more doors closed to you and even less understanding than you have now.

enjoy your workouts. I enjoy mine!

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nice job whipping out the "you dont have the secret stuff" card before you leave.:D

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Originally Posted by goju

nice job whipping out the "you dont have the secret stuff" card before you leave.:D

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There is nothing secret about good manners and the fact that they are taught and not built in with people.

There is nothing secret about how guidance to diligence forges good character in a person and that it is not there built in.

A good sword is fired and hammered many times.

A good person is the same.

No work = No result

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nice job whipping out the "you dont have the secret stuff" card before you leave.

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kinda like the race card around here seriously. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

There is nothing secret about good manners and the fact that they are taught and not built in with people.

There is nothing secret about how guidance to diligence forges good character in a person and that it is not there built in.

A good sword is fired and hammered many times.

A good person is the same.

No work = No result

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Manners have nothing to do with martial arts

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

There is nothing secret about good manners and the fact that they are taught and not built in with people.

There is nothing secret about how guidance to diligence forges good character in a person and that it is not there built in.

A good sword is fired and hammered many times.

A good person is the same.

No work = No result

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This is true, but why is it the job of martial arts instructors to teach these mannerisms. They should be taught to a child by parents or parent. This whole respect driven love thy neighbor BS gets really old. Hell, I thought you were an atheist!:p

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Originally Posted by goju

Manners have nothing to do with martial arts

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They have everything to do with Kung Fu.

Martial arts is what it is. Kung Fu is not martial arts in scope alone or by the very definition of it.

Frankly I am surprised at how many of the so called "mma supporter" crowd here have failed to make that connection.

Kung Fu envelopes more than fighting. If one would like to focus only on that, they surely can, but if someone wants to learn Kung Fu, they will be guided towards their own Kung Fu which is to cultivate the entirety of the person.

I don't have that disconnect, why should you?