street fighting / self defense myth

In regards to a recent thread about sport training vs street training.

The martial arts notion of street fighting or self defense is built on a myth. What we normally call street fighting or self defense is nothing more than bully defense. For that, TCMA is as good as anything else.

True self defense doesn't require a lot of training... it's a mental state built on the realization of what crime is and what types of patterns of behavior criminals fall into. It's a rehearsed mental plan built on survival and escape. I suggest that all of you read a copy of Sanford Strong's "Strong on Survival" book. Only then can any martial arts training begin to address the needs of real street survival.

Don't believe me... talk to a cop. Ask them about their last three rape or homicide cases involving a predator with a random victim. Standard and antiquated martial arts training would've been useless in those situations.

I believe awareness is the best method of self defense in "street" regards. Putting yourself in bad situations and thinking before you act are the best things to do. If you work late at night and park in an isolated area, walk do your vehicles in groups or have security escort you. Stay away from bad neighborhoods, especially after dark.

These are just a few things but I believe go along way in what self defense really is. Often if someone is getting robbed someone who is stupid and trying to play hero is going to get killed if the perp has a weapon, especially a gun. Some money or a few credit cards is not worth your life, give it to them than call the police. Instinct will generally let you know if they intend to harm you no matter what.

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The martial arts notion of street fighting or self defense is built on a myth.

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what MYTH?

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Putting yourself in bad situations and thinking before you act are the best things to do. If you work late at night and park in an isolated area, walk do your vehicles in groups or have security escort you. Stay away from bad neighborhoods, especially after dark.

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ALL this takes to achieve is common sense. Awareness to ME is always be prepare and be ready for the worst. And if you are the chosen person of some psycho who wants to kill someone you're prepared to FIGHT for you life. not everyone will FIGHT for their lives, MANY will lay down and let someone just KILL em.

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Some money or a few credit cards is not worth your life, give it to them than call the police. Instinct will generally let you know if they intend to harm you no matter what.

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what would YOU do knowing that if you were robbed by someone with a gun and you know that there is a huge chance you're not gonna make it through this regardless if you put up a fight? are you just going to let the dude kill you? or maybe FIGHT for you life?

My view is that it comes down to training.

We train.

Then we are faced with either:

using that training in a conflict on the street or using that training in a competition in a venue.

In the long run, what we do in between those moments of conflict is simply train.

If you train, you increase your chances of surviving a conflict on the street and your chances of winning a competition.

if you don't train, you can still take your chances on the street and even in competition but the odds are stacked against you for not training.

In the meantime, from the smallest person starting out to the greatest fighter of all time, for the most part, we are just training.

There are no guarantees that even with extreme hard work and diligence and attention to everything you need to address will have you succeed.

But they sure help you get there.

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Originally Posted by hskwarrior

what MYTH?



ALL this takes to achieve is common sense. Awareness to ME is always be prepare and be ready for the worst. And if you are the chosen person of some psycho who wants to kill someone you're prepared to FIGHT for you life. not everyone will FIGHT for their lives, MANY will lay down and let someone just KILL em.



what would YOU do knowing that if you were robbed by someone with a gun and you know that there is a huge chance you're not gonna make it through this regardless if you put up a fight? are you just going to let the dude kill you? or maybe FIGHT for you life?

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Most armed robbers are not going to risk a life sentence by killing you. This is why most will wear a mask and cover their faces to avoid you identifying them. The most dangerous of these is a drug addict jonesing for his next score who does not care, that you need to worry about. As I said, training and instinct are what you are going to fall back on and use your best judgement. Dumb a**ss people who want to act like Charles Bronson are the ones who often take a bullet over something petty.

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Originally Posted by Iron_Eagle_76

Most armed robbers are not going to risk a life sentence by killing you. This is why most will wear a mask and cover their faces to avoid you identifying them. The most dangerous of these is a drug addict jonesing for his next score who does not care, that you need to worry about. As I said, training and instinct are what you are going to fall back on and use your best judgement. Dumb a**ss people who want to act like Charles Bronson are the ones who often take a bullet over something petty.

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It doesn't really matter what the percentages are here don't you think.

If someone walks up with a gun or a knife and asks you for your wallet, the best thing you can do is give it to him. You have no idea what's in his mind and we are incapable of guessing correctly 100% of the time.

we can make all sorts of assumptions about what could be, what might be, but reality dictates that the best defense in a situation where your attacker clearly has it stacked for him, then give it up.

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

It doesn't really matter what the percentages are here don't you think.

If someone walks up with a gun or a knife and asks you for your wallet, the best thing you can do is give it to him. You have no idea what's in his mind and we are incapable of guessing correctly 100% of the time.

we can make all sorts of assumptions about what could be, what might be, but reality dictates that the best defense in a situation where your attacker clearly has it stacked for him, then give it up.

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Agreed. As I said, no amount of money or any other petty belongings is worth your life.

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Most armed robbers are not going to risk a life sentence by killing you. This is why most will wear a mask and cover their faces to avoid you identifying them. The most dangerous of these is a drug addict jonesing for his next score who does not care, that you need to worry about. As I said, training and instinct are what you are going to fall back on and use your best judgement. Dumb a**ss people who want to act like Charles Bronson are the ones who often take a bullet over something petty.

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i don't know where you get that idea from but dude Read the news papers from the bay area and you'll see what i'm talking about. i'm not bumping my gums just to bump my gums. Do you wanna know what the saddest thing in the world is to me? is a bunch a teenagers playing in their drive way to have a carload of dudes get out of the car with some serious hardware. they intended to rob the kids but the kids didn't have no money and EVERYONE was shot dead right in their drive way. They didn't have NOTHING to steal but their lives and these cowards took these kids lives for NO fukkin reason. THATs sad.

Here in San Francisco a man and his son were murdered simply for taking too long a a stop light. DUDE, i don't know where you live but out here in SF it's not like what you saying.

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Originally Posted by hskwarrior

what MYTH?
what would YOU do knowing that if you were robbed by someone with a gun and you know that there is a huge chance you're not gonna make it through this regardless if you put up a fight? are you just going to let the dude kill you? or maybe FIGHT for you life?

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Actually this is the correct response for how things are going. This is a survivor's mindset.

The situation for a street robbery works like this... guy with gun asks for your wallet, throw it to his feet and run. DO NOT throw it in the bushes or anything stupid because if he's hopped up and annoyed, he'll shoot. Don't hand it to him, 'cuz, if it's not a robbery - he'll grab you. Throw it to his feet and run. If he shoots - he wanted you, not your property. Most likely he'll pick it up and run the other way.

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Originally Posted by hskwarrior

i don't know where you get that idea from but dude Read the news papers from the bay area and you'll see what i'm talking about. i'm not bumping my gums just to bump my gums. Do you wanna know what the saddest thing in the world is to me? is a bunch a teenagers playing in their drive way to have a carload of dudes get out of the car with some serious hardware. they intended to rob the kids but the kids didn't have no money and EVERYONE was shot dead right in their drive way. They didn't have NOTHING to steal but their lives and these cowards took these kids lives for NO fukkin reason. THATs sad.

Here in San Francisco a man and his son were murdered simply for taking too long a a stop light. DUDE, i don't know where you live but out here in SF it's not like what you saying.

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This is also true. This is why YOU DON'T COMPLY. Too often people are told to comply with the rapist or the home invader. DON'T. You must Escape, or create a diversion for your family to escape. This means you will be hurt... or you may die.

Again - Read "Strong on Survival" for the new rules for surviving street crime. This is why hskwarrior I say that what is currently being taught is myth or bully defense.

Recidivists will most always kill. Do you know why prisoners work out? They're in training. They also train dirty boxing and effective shank/knife work. What they're training and what we're training is not equal. Theirs is reality based.

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Originally Posted by hskwarrior

i don't know where you get that idea from but dude Read the news papers from the bay area and you'll see what i'm talking about. i'm not bumping my gums just to bump my gums. Do you wanna know what the saddest thing in the world is to me? is a bunch a teenagers playing in their drive way to have a carload of dudes get out of the car with some serious hardware. they intended to rob the kids but the kids didn't have no money and EVERYONE was shot dead right in their drive way. They didn't have NOTHING to steal but their lives and these cowards took these kids lives for NO fukkin reason. THATs sad.

Here in San Francisco a man and his son were murdered simply for taking too long a a stop light. DUDE, i don't know where you live but out here in SF it's not like what you saying.

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I'm not arguing with you man. I'm sure things are that bad. But I am saying awareness is still the best option. How the hell do you prepare for a drive-by? First step is not to be in an area where they are prominent. I know this is not always possible depending on where you live, but in the end if I am in an area that bad I'm not going anywhere if Im not packing heat. Period.

I live in the country, very rural setting, so we don't have the problems like you speak of with gangs and such that bad, they are here but not like in your area. One of the great equalizers is it quite easy to get a concealed weapons permit here and lots of folks carry guns, and nearly all families have guns at their homes which prevents a lot of break ins. Different mentality living in the sticks. You go on someone's property and mess around you are likely to end up shot and in the morgue or buried on a mountain in the middle of nowhere. But like I said, different area, different scenerio.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

This is also true. This is why YOU DON'T COMPLY. Too often people are told to comply with the rapist or the home invader. DON'T. You must Escape, or create a diversion for your family to escape. This means you will be hurt... or you may die.

Again - Read "Strong on Survival" for the new rules for surviving street crime. This is why hskwarrior I say that what is currently being taught is myth or bully defense.

Recidivists will most always kill. Do you know why prisoners work out? They're in training. They also train dirty boxing and effective shank/knife work. What they're training and what we're training is not equal. Theirs is reality based.

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A little too much truth there.
The majority of professional criminals that are thieves are NOT that dangerous, they don't wanna kill anyone, they just want their goods.
BUT you can't know that, so be prepared to take it to the next level is you have no choice.

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Originally Posted by Iron_Eagle_76

I'm not arguing with you man. I'm sure things are that bad. But I am saying awareness is still the best option. How the hell do you prepare for a drive-by? First step is not to be in an area where they are prominent. I know this is not always possible depending on where you live, but in the end if I am in an area that bad I'm not going anywhere if Im not packing heat. Period.

I live in the country, very rural setting, so we don't have the problems like you speak of with gangs and such that bad, they are here but not like in your area. One of the great equalizers is it quite easy to get a concealed weapons permit here and lots of folks carry guns, and nearly all families have guns at their homes which prevents a lot of break ins. Different mentality living in the sticks. You go on someone's property and mess around you are likely to end up shot and in the morgue or buried on a mountain in the middle of nowhere. But like I said, different area, different scenerio.

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Awareness is key... but what I guess I'm talking about is more for when the crap hit the fan and you're in it. CCWs are the best. Also pepper spray if you carry it in your hand when your out.

The biggest disadvantage that the homeowner has is that the criminal invader gets to choose the time of the attack. This is actually a Sun Tzu tactic by the way. By not being aware of the attack - the victim may not be able to secure and load their weapon. That's why we should all prepare an escape plan and drill it. The escape plan can be the same as a fire escape plan. You should make it a habit to identify at least two points of escape from every situation you're in. Also, drill it in your family that their duty is to escape... especially your children. Most home invaders seek to isolate and bind the biggest males and adults first - so in those first few seconds, a child has the best chance to escape. They may feel guilty, but tell them the importance of escaping, because if they don't they'll be used as a weapon against the parents, and that by escaping, they'll be able to contact help.

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How the hell do you prepare for a drive-by?

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@ Iron_Eagle. Honestly? A street fighter or street thug has this ability to scan the environment while talking to you. They eyes are trained to see things out of the ordinary. drive-bys usually happen at night. First thing you notice is the car with no head lights. that's when you senses go into action. If the car in your neighborhood is cruising too slowly you pay attention. First thing street folks know to do during a drive by is HIT THE GROUND and don't come up till the shooting stops.

It's a mental thing to prepare for a drive by. For one, if you're looking for it to take place (even if it doesn't) you're more aware than the family in their front yard drinking a beer. you may have that one split second to run for cover. but, if you live your lives believing NONE OF THIS will happen to you then it really WILL.

Other than knowing the signs of an eminent drive by the only thing you can do it take cover and keep your guard up at all times. its when your guard is down that something bad will happen to you.

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The majority of professional criminals that are thieves are NOT that dangerous, they don't wanna kill anyone, they just want their goods.

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that might be geographical. because out here in the bay area typically when guns come into play for any reason people die. i WISH i lived where you do cause if live is like that where you live....i won't ever worry about a guy robbing me. i'll give him the money and just be on my way. LMAO.

http://www.hillsdale.net/newsnow/x29...sexual-assault

The only difference in this invasion scenario and most others is they didn't burn down the house with everyone in it. Most of these go down like this - thugs break into home. They isolate and bind the males (all the while telling the victims do as I say and you won't get hurt). They then bind the females to beds. they beat the males to death savagely, and they rape the women. They then murder the victims because since they have priors and invasion with a weapon, plus kidnap, and rape really up the ante so to speak... they don't want witnesses. They then burn down the house to try to cover the evidence of the crime.

people just don't fight back when knowing they're going to be killed anyway. i don't know why.

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Originally Posted by hskwarrior

people just don't fight back when knowing they're going to be killed anyway. i don't know why.

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Because they want to believe that they won't get hurt if they do what the criminal says. The worst thing is that the news and stupid uninformed rural police officers tell people that they should just do what the criminal is asking. Man - I remember seeing some dumb arsed cop on NBC telling people with a bullet pointed list things like in case of a home invasion, "make them feel like honored guests, humanize yourself to the assailant, do nothing to provoke them" BULL S**t. Man - that is such the wrong advice. This is in response to the home invasion where the doctors house was burnt with him and his wife and children still in it. They savagely beat the man after having the wife help bind him, and then they raped and murdered both women and the 11 year girl before burning the house down. It's the one that was just on national news. Does the MO sound familiar? Heck yes. They did it according to the criminal home invasion handbook. Everyone should've bolted as soon as the a-holes kicked in the door! Or fought tooth and nail to the death making the perps pay in blood for anything they took!

There is also a story of a home invasion where all of the people were tied up and blind folded and all lined up next to each other side by side. and they all just sat there on their knee's as the robbers shot each person one after the other. can you imagine knowing the person next to you is going to be killed and you're next? i'd freak the fuk out and if he's going to kill me he's gonna have to work for it.

I think self defence and personal security are bedfellows, but quite different.

Situational awareness, resources, tactical postures, aftermath - all relate to an engagement.

Once you put up your 'dukes', the game is well past half way, this is a mindset. Anybody who has lived on the street has the eye. You can recognise the cops first, their cars, shoes, hangouts. You know where the predators are, what they look like, and more importantly ,when they are hungry. You recognise the signs, and you act proactively, you don't just respond. You follow fundamental behaviours because they are your training to read the street. Where you sit, how much eye contact, when to flair and when to fold, and how to use your wits.

You can't control your environment at all times, but you can capture advantages and work them like you own them.

Living in a danger zone is a lot different than the comfortable shores of Oz, I can tell you for sure.

Thanks Frank and Mighty B for keeping it real. In this world of guns and gangs. Fighting it out is a last resort - but at least you have it.

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Thanks Frank and Mighty B for keeping it real. In this world of guns and gangs. Fighting it out is a last resort - but at least you have it.

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the best way to keep it is REAL.....it was cool having a decent conversation for once.

Yeah, thanks guys, for a good thread.

Situational awareness is so important. Some people say, "Aren't you paranoid, having to be aware like that all the time?" Which to me is ridiculous. When awareness becomes a habit, it's not being paranoid; it's simple common sense. Like being aware when you're driving, it becomes second nature. It becomes a part of you and requires little effort. If someone's too mentally lazy to do even that, there's not much help for them.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

Recidivists will most always kill. Do you know why prisoners work out? They're in training. They also train dirty boxing and effective shank/knife work. What they're training and what we're training is not equal. Theirs is reality based.

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Totally disagree. Sports Muay Thai is dirtier than any kind of "dirty boxing". What's illegal in sports MT fights (no strikes to the knees, kicks to the back above the butt, back of the head, throat, nuts, etc) is really no big feat to transfer onto the streets.

Musclebound guys with no training that walks into our dojo gets whooped just like any other newbie Whitebelt. Then there's the myth about military people being tougher or w/e. Without training, they tap out just like any other Whitebelts ...Marines, Army Ranger, Army, w/e....they tap no matter how many tours they've been through in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

And training to shank someone...ok, in MMA we don't bother with that. But I trained in Traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu where we worked with knives once a week, mostly to disarm. I don't see how it's any different from some inmate in prison (except better due to better techniques) since we train & spar to also kill with the blade. And if I train & condition my body to punch hard, fast, etc. along with footwork to dodge, find angles, etc... religiously every week and testing my skills vs. not just bags & pads but other sparring partners who moves & hit back.....and now I get to hold a knife in my hand....how is it much different than punching except now, with a huge advantage being the knife? How would some inmate or streetfighter's training be any more superior?

Inmates don't get into 1 on 1 shank fights everyday if ever at all. It's usually a surprise attack in prison or a mob vs. 1 guy. Anyone can walk into any dojo and kill the master instructor by surprise (while he's eating lunch, holding his baby, w/e) if they wanted to with a shank....but it doesn't mean that they're well trained nor an awesome streetfighter, etc.

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Originally Posted by gunbeatskroty

Inmates don't get into 1 on 1 shank fights everyday if ever at all. It's usually a surprise attack in prison or a mob vs. 1 guy. Anyone can walk into any dojo and kill the master instructor by surprise (while he's eating lunch, holding his baby, w/e) if they wanted to with a shank....but it doesn't mean that they're well trained nor an awesome streetfighter, etc.

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You almost get it ;) ... almost.


Bully defense isn't street self defense. That's the whole point of this thread. People mistake the two. That's why I call it the Street Fighting / Self Defense myth.

Karate instructor walks out of his Dojo one night, hears a women screaming. He turns and sees a woman getting smacked around by a very large guy. The man is beating and forcing her into his car. Instructor goes to help woman feeling it is his duty to help. Man pulls gun and instructor walks back into his Dojo and calls police.

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Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

A little too much truth there.
The majority of professional criminals that are thieves are NOT that dangerous, they don't wanna kill anyone, they just want their goods.
BUT you can't know that, so be prepared to take it to the next level is you have no choice.

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this is true for where i come from as well, and i think it comes down to personal expereince and where as to how you feel about this myth, if where you live you are more likely to come accross the bully that what mighty is talking about then is it a myth from your point of view?


If i lived in an area were this kind of thing you are talking about happens more often than not then any form of martial art would be the last thing on my mind, weapons, either bladed or firearms would be on my person and situated around the house, i would look to avoid any and all places that were known hot spots i would do what i could to keep my family safe and i would look to move out as soon as possible

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Originally Posted by Frost

If i lived in an area were this kind of thing you are talking about happens more often than not then any form of martial art would be the last thing on my mind, weapons, either bladed or firearms would be on my person and situated around the house, i would look to avoid any and all places that were known hot spots i would do what i could to keep my family safe and i would look to move out as soon as possible

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Whether you like it or not, violent crime is coming to your home town. As a matter of fact, watch your local news and newspapers. Start looking for home invasions, armed robberies, rapes, car jacking, drug related murders etc. Guess what - if you live in America, it's in your news. I posted a link to a home invasion / rape situation that happened in Hillsdale / nowhere Michigan just a couple of weeks ago earlier in this thread. If you're serious about self defense, learn how criminals operate. Don't pay attention to what a newscast will lie to you about even if they have a cop acting as an expert because they'll give you the worst advice... "do what the criminal wants, put your mind elsewhere if he's raping you, don't fight back" WRONG WRONG WRONG... Read "Strong on Defense". It'll change how you train. Also, watch "What If" on Spike TV http://www.spike.com/show/39395

In the 60's and 70's in Louisiana the punishment for murder was life in prison, no parole. Armed robbery was also life in prison with no parole. All sentences for seperate crimes ran concurant. You only served one life sentence. After all, you are meant to die in prison. So, in light of this, murder was a freebee. If you robbed with a weapon, armed robbery, you could kill and get no more for it. The added benefit might be that since there are no witnesses you might get by with it. If you worked in a fast food, convenience store, service station, and especially at night, you stood a very good chance of being murdered. Harold Fung was checking out at a convenience store one night and the young man at the counter pulled out a gun and robbed the clerk. As he passed the money over to him he raised the gun and shot him in the face. He actually survived though. Harold instantly reached over and took the gun from the boys hand and shot him twice in the chest. The kid started running but could not seem to locate the front door. Meanwhile there was another shot in back, and out came another kid. He had just shot the manager in the head and killed him, but Harold was standing there looking at him when he came out. He promptly shot him twice in the chest. Both robbers were still alive and the second one was begging for help. Harold stood and watched both of them expire before calling the police. Several witnesses were there and none of them seen a thing. Anyone else might have stood there and gotten shot too, but Harold is a very strong gung fu man, as is his twin brother, Reginald. The technique he used to disarm the guy was just an old standard technique taught in many different styles. He says he and Reggie trained it regularly. I have no doubt that the police would have found a store full of dead witnesses had Harold not been there that night.