Misconceptions about Wing Chun

We've seen quite a few videos now of Philipp Bayer training and using his Ving Tsun. No doubt he is an inspiration to his students and those in the wider VT/WC community.

Something occured to me the other day about some of the actions and hand 'postures' in Wing Chun.

Wu sao is performed with hand outstretched, fingers vertical. Some people perform laap sau as a grabbing/pulling action.

Clearly Philipp can't do that on one side because he only has one hand. This made me question some of the basic premises of the Wing Chun postures/actions. How is the basic action performed, from where? I'm guessing elbow, elbow, elbow. :D

Comments? Especially from PB students Kevin G and Graham H.

Nope.

From the sphincter.:D

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Originally Posted by JamesC

Nope.

From the sphincter.:D

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Does James C stand for James C**t???? :D

GH

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Originally Posted by Graham H

Does James C stand for James C**t???? :D

GH

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Maybe... :eek:

You mean from your stance?

Yes, I'm sure that is part of the answer too.

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Originally Posted by CFT

We've seen quite a few videos now of Philipp Bayer training and using his Ving Tsun. No doubt he is an inspiration to his students and those in the wider VT/WC community.

Something occured to me the other day about some of the actions and hand 'postures' in Wing Chun.

Wu sao is performed with hand outstretched, fingers vertical. Some people perform laap sau as a grabbing/pulling action.

Clearly Philipp can't do that on one side because he only has one hand. This made me question some of the basic premises of the Wing Chun postures/actions. How is the basic action performed, from where? I'm guessing elbow, elbow, elbow. :D

Comments? Especially from PB students Kevin G and Graham H.

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Chee

Why don't you hop on a plane and go and find out yourself instead of asking for answers that are not able to be answered correctly through the written word!!!

£34 return from London Luton on EasyJet.

A journey that I'm sure you will not be sorry about on your return. That way you can join myself and Kevin rubbishing other people for no apparent reason and over using the word "elbow"!!! LMAO

GH

You said it CFT; elbow, elbow elbow. And the connection between the elbows and the hips. This is drilled over and over again in chi sao, lap sau and the various footwork drills- along with pretty much everything else!

Here is how Mr. Bayer described it during a recent discussion on a German martial arts forum:

"Lap Sao zb. dient u.a. der Koordination zwischen Jut und dem Fausstoß. Koordination von Hüfte und Ellenbogen und Zug, mit dem Ziel die Kraft des ganzen Körpers in die Schläge bringen zu können...."

"Lap Sao, for example, helps build, among other things, the coordination between the Jut and punch. Coordination between hips, elbows and pull - the goal being the ability to bring the power of the whole body into one's punches...."(italics mine)

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Originally Posted by jamesc

maybe... :eek:

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lol ;) :d:d:d:d

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"Lap Sao, for example, helps build, among other things, the coordination between the Jut and punch. Coordination between hips, elbows and pull - the goal being the ability to bring the power of the whole body into one's punches...."(italics mine)

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Thank you Sean ;)

to add.......not only jut sau and the punch but also during the changes : pak sau and the punch, bong sau and the punch (Kwan Sau) and various other tools all designed for improving ones Ving Tsun behaviour!!

........also using the syncronization of the pivot with jut sau and the punch and later the step jut sau and the punch.

The stepping to the side to encourage your training partner to cut the way, jut sau with the punch all together using the whole body is one of Philipp's favourite drills as taught to him by WSL.
GH

Exactly, Graham.
And, personally, I think that one of the best ways of training this is on the wooden dummy. Through the dummy training (correctly done, with the right concepts guiding the movement) you can really get the feel of the coordinated, whole body power.

The first time I felt Philipp's Jut, I thought my arm was going to be ripped off. Then I saw him going to town on the dummy doing a Jut/Punch drill, and I understood why!

Of course, it's not just the dummy training. And herein lies the genius of the system - all the training methods serve to re-inforce and correct each other. Re-inforce and correct the "Ving Tsun behavior", as you put it.

What they said....you dont have any advantage with hands
against Philipp...imagine your arms as two short poles striking
out and swaping the centerline so the strike also clears the way for the follow up.
dan gwan aka jutsao ....etc. With the arms we can do in one action what the pole does in two ...dan gwan ....hit.
like pole we aim at opponent, if you align the pole strike, add body weight ,momentum......you can see similarities. Ballistic displacement prior to strike while maintaining line integrity...
like Many, we thought we knew vt until we met humble Philipp
Bayer.

Graham, I would. Or look you or Desmond Spencer up. At this moment in life my personal circumstances don't gve me that freedom.

I'm not in prison, just have 2 young children to help look after! You would think 2 vs. 2 is an even fight, especially since we have the physical advantage - but noooooo!!!

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The first time I felt Philipp's Jut, I thought my arm was going to be ripped off. Then I saw him going to town on the dummy doing a Jut/Punch drill, and I understood why!

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Me too!!! lol

Philipp is a Ving Tsun freak of nature!! LOL

GH

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Originally Posted by k gledhill

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like Many, we thought we knew vt until we met humble Philipp
Bayer.

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Correct!!! I just wish certain other individuals on this forum would accept that instead of thinking we belong to some sort of cult where Philipp has brainwashed us!! :D

GH

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Originally Posted by CFT

Graham, I would. Or look you or Desmond Spencer up. At this moment in life my personal circumstances don't gve me that freedom.

I'm not in prison, just have 2 young children to help look after! You would think 2 vs. 2 is an even fight, especially since we have the physical advantage - but noooooo!!!

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Chee

I hear you man!! ;)

Juggling life as always LOL.

GH

The basic ideas being developed in dan chi sao onwards and redundant aspects....many are confused by chi sao and its goals.

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Originally Posted by CFT

We've seen quite a few videos now of Philipp Bayer training and using his Ving Tsun. No doubt he is an inspiration to his students and those in the wider VT/WC community.

Something occured to me the other day about some of the actions and hand 'postures' in Wing Chun.

Wu sao is performed with hand outstretched, fingers vertical. Some people perform laap sau as a grabbing/pulling action.

Clearly Philipp can't do that on one side because he only has one hand. This made me question some of the basic premises of the Wing Chun postures/actions. How is the basic action performed, from where? I'm guessing elbow, elbow, elbow. :D

Comments? Especially from PB students Kevin G and Graham H.

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Think tut sao aka shaving hands. We make new striking attacks by recycling the lead,spent fist, with a new wu sao [aka new attacking hand].
When we make a rear wu with bong, for example, we try to drop bong elbow as wu strikes out, like abstract tut sao. Thereby combining, striking, clearing line and meeting any obstructions 'mindlessly' as we strike attack along the centerline...so wu to fok in slt reinforces this ....elbow in and forwards from X'ing centerline at wrists.

Do you know the difference between lop sao and jut sao ? When you would use one or the other and why ? Philipp explained it clearly.

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Originally Posted by Sean66

You said it CFT; elbow, elbow elbow. And the connection between the elbows and the hips. This is drilled over and over again in chi sao, lap sau and the various footwork drills- along with pretty much everything else!

Here is how Mr. Bayer described it during a recent discussion on a German martial arts forum:

"Lap Sao zb. dient u.a. der Koordination zwischen Jut und dem Fausstoß. Koordination von Hüfte und Ellenbogen und Zug, mit dem Ziel die Kraft des ganzen Körpers in die Schläge bringen zu können...."

"Lap Sao, for example, helps build, among other things, the coordination between the Jut and punch. Coordination between hips, elbows and pull - the goal being the ability to bring the power of the whole body into one's punches...."(italics mine)

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This is the same for other activities from boxing to throwing a ball.

It's just that 'traditional' training goes about linking all of this bass ackwards.

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Originally Posted by couch

This is the same for other activities from boxing to throwing a ball.

It's just that 'traditional' training goes about linking all of this bass ackwards.

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None of the above strike and use elbows, facing like VT . Sadly the 'wrist' has been taking over in bad chi-sao exchanges for years.

Throwing a ball normally uses mostly shoulder and arm muscles together with the "whipping" of the wrist.

But if you want to throw a ball well, like a good pitcher, you have to get your whole body behind it. And hopefully you have a good coach who can teach you good "body methods" to do this, like pushing off the rubber correctly and the coordination between hip and shoulder on the follow-through. If you don't have a good coach, you'll probably end up throwing out your arm.
This is what happened to me as a freshman pitching on the varsity team (going waaaay back!). The coaches had me throwing weighted balls instead of teaching me proper body mechanics. By the end of the season my arm was finished.

I agree about boxers, they get their whole body behind punches as well. But as Kevin pointed out, Ving Tsun is not boxing, and has different training requirements. Nonetheless, it's logically constructed pedagogically....why do you say it develops whole body power in a "bass ackwards" manner? Maybe you could elaborate.

what is the difference between Wing Chun and Ving Tsun? and why is there a difference in spelling if they are the same? Clearly one can not be the other, or is it just a geographical thing, like Hong Kong or Berlin?

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Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po

what is the difference between Wing Chun and Ving Tsun? and why is there a difference in spelling if they are the same? Clearly one can not be the other, or is it just a geographical thing, like Hong Kong or Berlin?

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I belive the Chinese written characters are the same for the Cantonese sounds for wing chun and ving tsun. Preferences are by choice of schools and teachers.
In the north it becomes yong chun in the romanization.
Leung Ting prefers Wing Tsun.
William Cheung uses Traditional Wing Chun.
Romanization of cantonese is less uniform than of mandarin terms.

Hooray for chaos.

jc

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Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po

what is the difference between Wing Chun and Ving Tsun? and why is there a difference in spelling if they are the same? Clearly one can not be the other, or is it just a geographical thing, like Hong Kong or Berlin?

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Joy is correct. The Romanization of the characters varies actually depending on what Cantonese-English dictionaries you use. The character for ving/wing and tsun/tjun/chun is the same. Unless you go into the new'er' 'weng' that is only slightly different than 'wing' :o and I'm waiting for a new millennium version too! Maybe we will all be Yong Chun by 2020 :mad:

There are a few stories that explain a little of the history behind the 'name change' because originally Ip (originially Yip!) Mans students spelt it as Wing Chun and some felt that using the WC abreviation in the UK was just asking for insults from other Martial Artists! :eek:

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Originally Posted by LoneTiger108

Joy is correct. The Romanization of the characters varies actually depending on what Cantonese-English dictionaries you use. The character for ving/wing and tsun/tjun/chun is the same. Unless you go into the new'er' 'weng' that is only slightly different than 'wing' :o and I'm waiting for a new millennium version too! Maybe we will all be Yong Chun by 2020 :mad:

There are a few stories that explain a little of the history behind the 'name change' because originally Ip (originially Yip!) Mans students spelt it as Wing Chun and some felt that using the WC abreviation in the UK was just asking for insults from other Martial Artists! :eek:

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The way things - including the constant cluelessness - in this forum are going, don't be surprised that I start referring to many posters, as practitioners of WIND CHUN.....:D ;)

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Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po

what is the difference between Wing Chun and Ving Tsun? and why is there a difference in spelling if they are the same? Clearly one can not be the other, or is it just a geographical thing, like Hong Kong or Berlin?

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Here you go:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ght=wing+choon
Since Chinese don't use Roman letters it's ALWAYS going to be Wing Cheun/Choon in Cantonese. No native speaker will pronounce the V. In English was can write V-V W or two U's for the letter W. So Ving is still pronounced Wing regardless of how we Westerners spell it.