What do you guys think? Why doesn't the pak sau work?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe0OM...el_video_title
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What do you guys think? Why doesn't the pak sau work?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe0OM...el_video_title
Read the comments underneath the video if any of you are confused on what kind of conversation I'm trying to start here.....
Because he is not extending with his Pak. If he kept going into a jum then punch it should block it if you control it wit your elbow. This would also mean you would be in a better position to attack them when the being the hand back
I thought the video is okay since the point is just get people thinking. If I was there I'd raise my hand enthusiastically and if teacher points at me here's my attempt at an answer:
That move isn't a block. It's not supposed to stop a straight punch that has power. At best it can deflect a few degrees of angle and establish touch contact. The guy on the receiving end should turn to evade the punch or make the punch hit him at an oblique angle so there's little power in the impact. It's okay if his chest gets touched if little energy is transferred. (not so good if the attacker is holding a knife though) If the punch is aimed at his head he should get his head out of the way, even if he uses a deflect/parrying motion. Then the hand that did the intercept may be in position to chop to opp neck or jaw, or something similar.
Yea, I am not sure what all the sniping is about. If you teach any striking art, people have trouble with their defense and it usually stems from the same couple of mistakes. The point of the video was to show it erroneously so that we could then see it correctly.
Judging by the comments, the follow up video strongly needs to be posted.
The timing could be off, if the pak only catches a bit of the attack the pak can still turn into a punch and hit the opponent. Turning the stance will help get the body out of the way. Or footwork to the side can do the trick as well
The Pak Sau in the video doesn't work because he's chasing hands, not chasing Centre Of Mass.
So what do you guys think is the difference between a WC pak sao and a parry in boxing (or how another style uses pak sao).
This is a good example that it's better to rotate the body to block a punch (body connected) instead of just move the arm without moving the body (body disconnedted).
Many years ago, the 7 star prey mantis master Brendan Lai challenged me in speed. He said that he could strike my back shoulder and I could not even use my leading arm to block it.
- We both started with right side forward with both arms down.
- His right leading hand striked at my left back shoulder.
- I rotated my body to my left.
- My right forearm blocked his right arm.
Brendan had tried 3 times and I had intersected all 3 of his punches.
Instead of trying to use my hand to intersect his punch, I moved my left shoulder out of his striking path. Whether my right hand could intersect his punch or not is no longer important at that moment.
I definitely agree that
1 - he's 'passive' chasing
2 - he's not using his whole body
3 - most importantly, he's not invading the center. You can only be stationary and deflect effectively if you're connected. Otherwise you should be constantly trying to disrupt the opponents center by moving in. The act itself of taking over the line will give you the best odds of making it work.....
By virtue of what you were showing which was drilling slowly and then full speed. The core issue appears to be reaction time. Your student knows how to do the movement, he just can't execute it at full speed.
All of these suggestions about structure and basic execution are missing the point.
Just to clarify in case there was confusion. This is NOT me nor my video. Something I found that thought would make good conversation.
What block, technique, parry, etc., would work against a stationary target that is a beat behind an attack? Unless the video had another point it proves nothing. I know for sure that a pak can work in street fights and in competition.
Exactly. If you watch a lot of video demos carefully you see this mistake being made all the time. The attacker usually begins his attack before the defender. Most times it is imperceptible because the attacker is moving his feet or body before his hands. The defender is usually standing still. This is why the attacks always work. I call this the crash test dummy idea. As long as you have passive, stationary defender most techniques will get by a defense.
In the video the demonstrator should have had the defender stepping side to side or moving back and forth before he launched his attack. The defender would have had more advantage. I think a different convo would have been elicited on the board.
Having said that, all I have is the demo in front of me. The way I think I would have defended is not to wait for the attacker's punch. I would have tried to punch first, used a tan sao, or fuk sao, body dodge or head fake, rather than pak sao.
I think that the solution that this teacher intends to get at is that it is necessary to stand at the correct fighting measure/distance. People stand stationary, doing drilling and forms slowly at first. It seems to me the first time that you start them on developing real-time maneuvers they stand to close where things like a pak are less effective just like the video. I think that it happens a lot.
So what do you guys think is the difference between a WC pak sao and a parry in boxing (or how another style uses pak sao).
As a generalization the boxing parry is close to the body and just aids with a slip. the pak is a bit longer range and pushes the opponent's strike off the centerline. WC guys will also use the pak like a wind shield wiper to catch lead straights which is something that boxers will sometimes do if they don't catch it.
Now having said that, nothing really. Good WC men use it like a boxer at times, and good boxers use it like a WC man a lot too. At low levels you see some more distinction. At high levels not so much.
The intention is different here. In that WC clip, the guy tries to reach his hand to his opponent's arm in a 90 degree angle. The prey mantis "掛(Gua) - comb hair" is applied in 45 degree angle (toward yourself) to your opponent's striking arm. As long as your opponent's striking arm passes beside your head, you don't care whether the punch missed just 1 inch or 1 foot. The purpose of "掛(Gua) - comb hair" is to change the incoming force vector a little bit so it will miss your head.
To make it work:
1. don't try to catch the punch. Start the move as soon as the opponent twitch.
2. don't try to catch the punch, cover the second gate (elbow).
3. don't try to catch the punch, charge in and knock the opponent off balance.
Boxers and punching specialists do feints and combos REALLY fast. Chasing hands is suicidal. Must knock down the opponent's momentum straight away so he has to deal with you, instead of you dealing with him.
My 1st reaction even before he threw the 1st "testing" punch was....
He's already in my range, he was too close to start with. He wouldn't be able to just do that without receiving something from me 1st.
It reminds me of some a-holes who kinda sneak up on you at a party, get REALLY CLOSE to you and say..."Oh you know Martial arts huh?" "Well what you would do if I did this...?"
Of course, i'm used to seeing this crap so the solution is to reach out quickly and give them a fast slap to the face, prefferably before they can even finish thier last sentence. They always react the same way saying: "Wait, I wasn't ready or What did you do that for?"
To which I respond, " you want me to wait for you to get very close so you can trick me?????" "Are you stupid?"
Also without a bridge, the guy receiving the punch should use more Periphirial Vision and not look at his hands. Already been said i'm sure.
too much to b!tch about...me no likey
The difference wit h boxing is with the forward pak sao not really the side one. It can be turned into a strike if controlled by the elbow. Which means that if it is a fake you just hit him, its only when it contacts with a really strong punch that you. Would need to stop it in the pak sao position
Response to:
Wing Chun - Why doesn't Pak sau work?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlSRp3b7Ns4
Nice response Phil. As you say hopefully we'll get the follow up clip soon to understand what the guy was trying to demo / point he was trying to make as there are so many fundamental things wrong with the application of pak sau demonstrated in the original clip.
Pak is 1/2 an attack, the other half is the part everyone is ignoring , along with methods to shut down the fight .