The Problem With Wing Chun

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10-31-2011, 06:10 PM
Yoshiyahu

The Problem With Wing Chun

The Main Problem with Wing Chun is beyond chi sau there is no fighting!

Old chinese gung fu would have roof tops fight and organize fights for competiting schools to prove there gung fu was the best.

it is not so today!!!

Wing Chun is reduced to:

1. Chi Sau Conventions
2. Chi Sau workshops
3. Public Demostrations
4. Chi Sau Seminars and Expos
5. Classes on theory

Do MMA, Muay Thai and Boxing gyms have these five things

Dont get me wrong...The following five things are definitely thought provoking and brain tingling...But what does it have to do with fighting!

How do MMA and MT and Boxing people show case their skills. Not by shadow boxing, Doing Muay Thai dance aka form. Not by demostrating take down techniques in the air. Are speaking to people at workshop about the correct way to throw a MT elbow or BJJ arm bar....No they showcase thier skill by fighting right?

Why dont we do this?
10-31-2011, 07:06 PM
Lee Chiang Po

It is not just Wing Chun. It is most all martial arts except the ones that are oriented toward compitition. The Rooftop fights occured in back yards and in alleys and such all the time 50 years ago, but they were not sanctioned events at all. You need to set up a lot of background in order to do that sort of thing today. Rule sets, all sorts of things must be adhered to in order to put on such an event. That is why certain systems exist today. They were developed from other forms of fighting just so that they could meet the criteria. Most all the stuff you mentioned that actually fought to prove their stuff are actually in existance for that purpose. It is actually not fighting since you have rules of engagement. And getting into a ring certainly does not imply skill.
If you feel the need to prove your stuff, get together with some like minded friends in a back yard and have at it. Now bare in mind that if you put on gloves and start banning certain techniques and such you are going to end up with MMA, plain and simple. In order to test your skills at our chosen martial art, you will have to simply lock horns and do it. I would also suggest that after one good night of this none of you will ever want to do it again. And you will likely lose some long friendships.
When I was a young fellow my dad loved to gamble. Down the street from us was a large night club that had a gambling hall in back. They also had a fight ring out back with a tall wooden fence around it. Dirt floor and all. This ring was a ring indeed as it was round and 30 feet across the widest point. The owner would pay anyone 25 bucks to fight. For you young guys, 25 bucks was a weeks wages for any man those days. The winner got a 10 dollar bonus and the chance to fight again. I met some of the hardest people in my life in that back yard.
My older brother next to me and I would accompany dad to this club as he was at that time without legs and in a wheelchair. He would always try to get us to get into the ring, and eventually we did. This is not where you learn to fight. It is a place where you test what you have learned. Nothing works all the time, and nothing works every time, but some things work most of the time. You do whatever you can do to defeat the aggressor.
10-31-2011, 07:13 PM
Grumblegeezer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu

The Main Problem with Wing Chun is beyond chi sau there is no fighting!

Old chinese gung fu would have roof tops fight and organize fights for competiting schools to prove there gung fu was the best.

Why dont we do this?

Hmmm.... maybe it's the stucco neo-mediterranean architecture with those sloped tile roofs? I know I wouldn't want to fight on top of those things.
11-01-2011, 04:40 AM
Phil Redmond

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu

The Main Problem with Wing Chun is beyond chi sau there is no fighting!

Old chinese gung fu would have roof tops fight and organize fights for competiting schools to prove there gung fu was the best.

it is not so today!!!

Not true of all WC. Some WC people do compete. You have Sifu Alan Orr's fighters and in NYC there is the newly formed Manup Standup amateur full contact fights. At least 3 different WC organizations have entered contestants.
11-01-2011, 08:10 AM
Kevin73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu

The Main Problem with Wing Chun is beyond chi sau there is no fighting!

Old chinese gung fu would have roof tops fight and organize fights for competiting schools to prove there gung fu was the best.

it is not so today!!!

Why dont we do this?

As always, depends on the school and lineage. There are some WC/WT that do and others that don't. You can't make a blanket statement about a whole style with different lineages and roots.
11-01-2011, 08:25 AM
mjw

We train chi sao and goro sao so long the people agree on how hard they want to go there arent really any issues.

Otherwise go to the boxers/mt & mma guys and test your skills if you like but equipment and rules will always change it up......
11-01-2011, 08:53 AM
Hardwork108

The PROBLEM with Wing Chun is that most people teaching it have no clue to the dimension and scope of this art. Hence they end up teaching a two dimensional "face slapping" method.

Actually, most kung fu systems suffer from more or less the same problem, in that the people teaching them are not genuine instructors, but half baked wannabes out to make a living for themselves!
11-01-2011, 08:53 AM
sanjuro_ronin

A valid point though, you go to any other MA seminar or workshop and you will be fighting or rolling ( not full contact but there will be contact, that's for sure).
What does that say of the MA that only have forms or demos or "complaint drills"?
11-01-2011, 08:55 AM
Hardwork108

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

A valid point though, you go to any other MA seminar or workshop and you will be fighting or rolling ( not full contact but there will be contact, that's for sure).
What does that say of the MA that only have forms or demos or "complaint drills"?

It says that they are not practiced properly, as intended. ;)
11-01-2011, 11:54 AM
Yoshiyahu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Redmond

Not true of all WC. Some WC people do compete. You have Sifu Alan Orr's fighters and in NYC there is the newly formed Manup Standup amateur full contact fights. At least 3 different WC organizations have entered contestants.

I agree i have heard of Alan orr!!!

But what im say is those few WC schools who do compete are spit in a bucket compared to WC kwoons who do not!!!

You would have to agree most WC out there aint about fighting right?
11-01-2011, 01:06 PM
couch

And, on the flipside, I think we need to recognize that some folks go to a boxing class, MT class and BJJ class and they don't want to compete or have any contact whatsoever. So they just do the boxfit classes (or regular classes without the sparring or competition).

The issue lies in the fact that a person can't call what they do 'effective' if there is no contact. I don't think it would be an issue whatsoever if I asked a boxfit participant if they thought they could use what they learned in class in a fight.
11-01-2011, 05:07 PM
imperialtaichi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardwork108

The PROBLEM with Wing Chun is that most people teaching it have no clue to the dimension and scope of this art. Hence they end up teaching a two dimensional "face slapping" method.

Couldn't agree more. My pet hate, seeing those "self defence" techniques focusing on scoring points, striking without proper balance and not backed by the rest of the body ***** slapping the imaginary attacker, is in fact dangerous for the students. Imagine someone getting into a real fight thinking he/she can fight, just to realise his/her cannot fight! Crazy!
11-01-2011, 06:42 PM
EternalSpring

Sounds more like a "practitioner problem" than a Ving Tsun problem.
11-01-2011, 07:34 PM
k gledhill

A lot of students go for self defense 'moves'...if they do this you do x,y,z.....
11-02-2011, 12:18 PM
Yoshiyahu

Quote:

Originally Posted by k gledhill

A lot of students go for self defense 'moves'...if they do this you do x,y,z.....

Is there self defense technique where you use an elbow?
11-02-2011, 12:23 PM
k gledhill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu

Is there self defense technique where you use an elbow?

The whole system is devoted to using the centered elbows...
11-02-2011, 12:49 PM
Yoshiyahu

Quote:

Originally Posted by k gledhill

The whole system is devoted to using the centered elbows...

So you are not suppose to hit someone with an elbow?
11-02-2011, 01:28 PM
k gledhill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu

So you are not suppose to hit someone with an elbow?

Not if its behind your fist...:D
11-02-2011, 09:12 PM
Yoshiyahu

Quote:

Originally Posted by k gledhill

Not if its behind your fist...:D

The Infamous If!!!

If im too close to you to use a fist what do you do?
11-03-2011, 04:30 AM
k gledhill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu

The Infamous If!!!

If im too close to you to use a fist what do you do?

move and angle ..."cut the way" . ;)
11-03-2011, 06:15 AM
Graham H

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu

The Infamous If!!!

If im too close to you to use a fist what do you do?

Bil Jee gives us ideas on what to do if you cannot use the fist from being to close. BJ is for abnormal situations so I would say you wouldn't get that close to a generic me. Timing, distance and mobility is something that determines range. Punching power and precision is what stops people in their tracks.

GH
11-03-2011, 06:25 AM
LoneTiger108

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu

The Infamous If!!!

If im too close to you to use a fist what do you do?

Personally I'd lock into you with my whole body, using shoulder/knee/elbow attack/defence. Only for a split second mind lol! I wouldn't want to be branded a wrestler!! :eek:

Get in, get out. Simple.
11-03-2011, 01:14 PM
Yoshiyahu

Quote:

Originally Posted by k gledhill

move and angle ..."cut the way" . ;)

I will be slicing you with an elbow as you move and angle buddy!
11-03-2011, 08:04 PM
mesar

I love my knees and elbows. They can be way devastating.
11-03-2011, 08:08 PM
Hardwork108

Quote:

Originally Posted by imperialtaichi

Couldn't agree more. My pet hate, seeing those "self defence" techniques focusing on scoring points, striking without proper balance and not backed by the rest of the body ***** slapping the imaginary attacker, is in fact dangerous for the students. Imagine someone getting into a real fight thinking he/she can fight, just to realise his/her cannot fight! Crazy!

I agree too and the scenario you mention will put the practitioner in more danger than he would have been if he had not taken up kung fu classes, because he will think that he knows how to fight and may less likely walk away from a fight, which will result in him being surprised and hurt!
11-04-2011, 08:33 AM
Yoshiyahu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardwork108

I agree too and the scenario you mention will put the practitioner in more danger than he would have been if he had not taken up kung fu classes, because he will think that he knows how to fight and may less likely walk away from a fight, which will result in him being surprised and hurt!

So true!!!

Training with out fighting!!!
11-04-2011, 07:20 PM
mesar

The biggest issues with Wing Chun, is that drilling and chi sau doesn't make you a fighter. The old roof top fights we all heard about, allowed them to tie all their training together and become very good. They learned to deal with variables and different type of attacks. So how do you get down timing and positioning without seeing attacks going at you 'at speed'? Have to have some form of training that can cover that aspect. As bad as sparring is looked down on from some, and I understand the issues, but is hard to get this skill set without either sparring or fighting.
11-04-2011, 08:21 PM
PalmStriker

Wing Chun works best with a knife in each hand. :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbOnd40I4XE
11-04-2011, 09:25 PM
Yoshiyahu

I agree whole heartily

Quote:

Originally Posted by mesar

The biggest issues with Wing Chun, is that drilling and chi sau doesn't make you a fighter. The old roof top fights we all heard about, allowed them to tie all their training together and become very good. They learned to deal with variables and different type of attacks. So how do you get down timing and positioning without seeing attacks going at you 'at speed'? Have to have some form of training that can cover that aspect. As bad as sparring is looked down on from some, and I understand the issues, but is hard to get this skill set without either sparring or fighting.