http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=PhownwwVHdA
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If it doesn't look like Wing Chun and it's clearly not Wing Chun then why call it Wing Chun when he clearly hasn't got a clue about it?
I'm not taking anything away from Alan Orr. He trains his guys to fight and they compete but there is no Wing Chun. Just calling things Wing Chun names and then totally changing their applications simply because he can't do it seems to be common practice these days.
How can somebody say that Pak/jut sau is for beginners and then change how it is used? He is just punching ffs! Any idiot can punch and using your weight and hip is important in any fighting art. Cutting in with the punch is correct but not how he is doing it! I would expect my beginners to do it like that.
Saying that SLT is for space awareness is absolutley incorrect! Alans strategy on how to apply Wing Chun in a fight is wrong. He even did a pak sau when the guy punched him but only beginners should do that????????
The only thing I agree with in that clip is when he makes aware the guys following punch but we have a strategy to deal with that whereas most WC I have encountered do not because they are always stuck on each others arms.
Saying that we do not take the forms into a fight is garbage! The forms are Wing Chun and show us the way to fight. We dont stand in front of somebody and start doing a form but every action has SLT/CK/MJ/BJ/CS/BJD/LDBK elements.
Chi Sau is not for feeling your opponent out. Its a learning tool and is the most misinterpreted drill in the whole of Martail Arts.
That is not Ving Tsun. Call it what you will and win fights with it but it is not Ving Tsun! Just call it MMA which is what it is or lets just iradicate the name Ving Tsun completely so no f***er can market it as something it's not!
So if Alan reads this then why don't you call your style "Alan Orr's Fighting System" It works, its good it has a proven track record BUT THERE IS NO VING TSUN IN IT!!!
Whats next? People will be calling Muay Thai Ving Tsun because it has a punch in it? Why not get a boxer to do SLT and call that Ving Tsun. Lets call Wrestling Ving Tsun because somebody has used an action that looks like Bong Sau to roll away a punch.
GH
http://www.alanorr.co.uk/htdocs/wingchun/wingchun.html
Proper lineage but his sifu has interpreted things in a more combative way than most and thus Allan and his students can fight and win at what they do....
Who's to say that his interpretations aren't correct or if they are proper wing chun??
R
Thanks for posting the clip Phil, I always find Alan's stuff interesting. He mixes in a lot of wrestling, MT and boxing for his MMA fighters but you can often see the wing chun basis if you look with an open mind, and many of his training methods compliment the traditional stuff really well. Always nice to see another perspective.:)
This is very funny. Just because it work does not mean its right, well yes that can hold some true if its just one person. But I have a lot of guys using Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and they are all doing very well.
Also if you listen rather that just rant like a fool, you would then see that I am taking about Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and what I think about wing chun. Thats my point of view. Who the ...k are you to tell me what I think! lol
You have your views and I have my views. Very simple.
Here is a clip of a guy exchanging with another , it looks like VT , he moves like VT, he is using techniques from VT. He learned from a man considered to be a VT fighter.
CLIP
Alan, Alan, Alan...allow ME to make clear to YOU what YOU are thinking :D
WC is about fighting and one fighting with WC is doing just that.
This is what you are THINKING Alan, but you are wrong, WRONG I SAY !!!
WC is about forms and n ot just ANY forms, but forms done in THIS way under THERE PRETENSES with NOTHING else being ACCEPTABLE !!
WC is about Chi Sao done in the most static and impractical way possible and NO OTHER ALTERNATE WAY IS ACCEPTABLE !!
Alan, the fact that you take your WC and make it work VS trained fighters in an environement that is as close to reality as possible means that you are NOT DOING WC !!
In short Alan, stop being effective, stop training your guys to win and START doing WC the way it was suppose to !!!
Your yellow silk jammies are in the mail, along with my DVD of "how to make SLT as boring and useless as possible".
:D
Thank you for your post, but what you saying about me is not completely correct.
I do not mix wrestling, boxing or anything else in my wing chun.
My stand up striking art is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun 100%
I am not using boxing - its CSL Chinese boxing - ie wing chun striking -wing chun skills from our wing chun training.
When I tie up in 'training' then I may do some wrestling so my guys learn to defend the takedown and so on.
I'm a brown belt in BJJ so it we go to the ground I have a choice of ground and pound - using my wing chun or apply BJJ and wrestling as its just training.
Best Alan
Not that MY opinion matters more than anyone elses, but it depends on what you veeiw VT as.
Is it a system that is base don techniques? ( if so it must have a "certain look")?
Is it a system based on principles? ( If so any technique or look is valid as long as the principles are there).
Where do I draw the line on what is VT and what isn't?
That would depend on WHICH VT you are referring to, no?
Ranting like a fool eh? Uh hum.....your videos? Irony at its best!
Call it what you like mate. I don't give a sh1t anyway. I gave up WC and I regret writing that post. Its a waste of time like your CSLWC ideas.
I wasn't telling you what to think! You read it and responded and this will be my last post.
Keep up the bad work!
GH
Wing Chun is good which is efficient. Allan Or Wing Chun is efficient.
Indeed, and one can take the "orthodox" view and state that IF WT doesn't look like WT then it isn't WT but we are stuck with the "how IS WT suppose to look?" right?
I would think that the moment the core WT principles are not present then it stops being WT and starts being something else.
Of course we get back to whether WT is a principles based system or a technique one.
Is a spinning hook kick WT?
LOL, love the sarcasm! Alan is correct. He even mentions in the video that this is "his wing chun". WC/VT/WT or whatever is not about forms and chi sao, it's about the concept and principle and how effectively you can use them. The forms are only a guideline not the (insert holy book of choice). Fact of the matter is that Alan is able to hide/blend it into any form that takes shape. Any good fighter after training anything will end up doing just that, make it his/her own.
I like anyone who fights effectively and I like Alan Orr's skill.... But, just from my own perspective so as not to cause a debate here, "IMO" there's not much there in regards to WC principles. The few that are demonstrated are quickly contraindicated. Nothing wrong with doing whatever one wants to do, but I'm going to have to take the opposing viewpoint...... There's more than one way to illustrate a principle or core concept but they're all interrelated and if you follow one principle, or even two, and not the rest, I think it's pretty safe to say one's no longer exhibiting WC. Just my two cents.... Other than that, the man can fight...
I'm very happy that Alan Orr has EVOLVED his Wing Chun into HIS interpretation of what effective is for today. And he also gets props for not telling me, on a Youtube video, that his Wing Chun is too deadly for the ring.
One has to wonder about a system than can be used effectively in the ring.
I mean, if you can't use it under controlled conditions VS a person in the same weight category, what hope do you have to use VS a bigger fighter with no rules ?
Mr. Orr's WC is not my VT, his Eskrima is not the same as my Escrima. What I do is more traditional, less evolutionary and more like what I was taught. That's my choice.
Now on the other hand I have total respect for what Mr. Orr seems to be trying to do. That is to take the essense of WC/VT and make it work in competitive fighting and in conjunction with combat principles from other arts that address other ranges and situations (Eskrima, boxing, BJJ, etc.). His practical experience in this area can benefit us all if we "pull our heads out" and open up our eyes. I have referred students to his videos to check out what I see as a positive influence on our art. If I wanted to show them negativity, I could just send them here to check out this forum!:p
Great stuff!
I remember years ago, someone put up a clip of one of Alan's guys in a fight and it started cries of blasphemy (like this one has).
My comment was, at the time, that it all starts with how they develop their power and that you could see it in their stance/structure.
Thats the 1st thing everyone should look at rather than his hands... its WC to me in that earlier clip, and its certainly WC here
And its realistic in a combat context. You can tell these guys get down and dirty when they sparr just from what Alamn has to say.
If your reading my comment Alan, your stucture, build and attitude are very similar to my WC Instructor Beau Bouzaid(TST lineage) though he has a few years on you ;) Shame youre so far away.
Great work, keep it up
Props to Alan. Karma to the haters.
Alan uses a good wing chun structure in stand up in an effective way.
Anything that contradicts the magic Peanut Butter and his Jellies is taboo on this board. Didn't you know?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJrVX2Nr68
New Alan Orr Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun Chi Sao Clip
I could say that other people's Wing Chun principles are not right because they aren't mine. ie, my Wu covers my uppergate where most opponents will strike. Other's wu is the middle gate. But I don't do that because Wing Chun is a tool which can by used various ways as long as it's effective.
Alan, there are many keys on a keyboard by some are hardly used. They are still keys aren't they? There are many chords in music but all aren't used in one musical piece. But they are still chords. A fight might never require a tan, fook, pak, lop, etc. Wing Chun teaches economy of motion, and energy. The most economical tech might not look like what the average WC person expects to see. Fighters understand that. Also there are some people brainwashed to think that one Sifu has ALL the answers and that's really sad. I give you big props and you're a credit to WC regardless of what the brainwashed people say
I caught it too - Alan says that techniques like pak bong laap are beginner level stuff but he's not going to use that. But in both instances where he demonstrated 'free sparring' that's exactly what he used - Pak, bong and laap (in that exact order) :rolleyes:
Besides that, the rest of what he is saying in the clip make sense - because for the most part, it's just basic general fight mechanics. But there is a disconnect in what he's saying and what he's actually doing as noted above.
Man, if a guy like Alan makes it work for him....WORK being the key word.
Then go ahead... man kick ass.
Why do people get so caught up on a "Particular" looking style. Can't we all agree that if 5 guys learned to fight well ....albeit from different styles, then they ALL WILL most likely do the simplest, most effecient motions to get the job done.
I mean, once you're at the top of the mountain...things start to look similar.
Shoot, I do Hung Gar (also a bridging style) and some of the things Alan did is what we do. It's false perceptions.... Being loose and comfortable yet ready to apply is more real and makes sense. For example, Nobody should think you have to be using animals or some crazy sh!t like that or it's not Hung Gar.
Fundamental Kung Fu skills, like a relaxed shoulder and sunk elbow cross all boundaries and styles.
In the end, if you have good Kung Fu fundamentals...it should show out, regardless of style.
I tried to stop myself from replying!!!!!
First off I am not Alan's biggest fan, I have respect for him and his teacher and on the few occassions I have met with them, I have to admit they have helped me and my wing chun by making me think. Some of the drills they use make alot of sense and thier functional approach is certainly ahead of its time (although many wing chun groups are moving that way).
I was watching a clip the other day of a wing chun guy and I thought, hey that looks a bit like Alan Orr......when I checked out the guys history it turns out one of his influences was Alan. To me this shows that the Chu/Orr family have thier own unique body methods and techniques and that the system can be passed on. This to me is positive and you can often tell good/strong lineages by thier trademark techniques and structures. WSL family are a good example fo this as I guess are the WT & TWC families.
Wing chun is a system, just like mathematics.....you have certain formulas and mehtods but once you understand the principles and concepts if it works its good. You are doing wing chun (well trying to!!!) if you are studying the methods and drilling the forms. How welll you do it will depend on your effort, testing and how good the teaching system is.
So after that long rant.......Alan, thanks for posting, if it makes people think and train that extra half hour today then well done. If it gets one more non wing chunner thinking that wing chun might have something then well done.
Paul
www.moifa.co.uk
From an outsiders perspective, I thought his vids are solid. I'd train with an instructor like that anytime. It never ceases to amaze me the fanaticism with which some people hold on to lineages, styles, techniques as being altruistic. There are always many paths along the journey...Phil has the gist of it...show some respect, learn from others and work on yourself.