does your school have a strengh training program?

was talking about this with a friend of mine..i have a friend who has a kung fu school here in ny..and as far as i know he is the only kung fu teacher that has a strength training program to go with his kung fu, weights, kettle bells etc. i think alot of what mma has brought to the martial arts world needs to be incorporated into the kung fu schools..alot of karate and ofcourse muay thai schools do it...but kung fu schools lack alot of modern innovations, that will help take your students to the next level..it also raises the profile of your school. any kung fu schools out there who has a program like this?

Traditonally ALL CMA had ST programs.
I think that cost made many schools focus on forms and such.
Hung Kuen has always had supllimentary ST devices.
The okinawan systems ALL use them.
It doesn't take much to add them to your gym but many teachers think that means using them as part of the class and they certainly CAN do that, but typically they are suppose to be done after class.

Starting with my sifu down to my own students, we never weight trained technically but our weapons were so heavy that by the time you finish the form your arms and shoulders were ready to give out.

after learning the staff forms using our steel staff my students don't like to use the wooden ones anymore.

we have a full two tier rack of dumbells from 5-80 lbs, olympic weights, a weight cage, overhead and low pulleys. leg press and extension, calf machine and roman chair, as well as jars, bars,weighted balls, iron rings, sash weights. I am hoping to add stone locks.

I would say steel staff training is still technically weight training...

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I would say steel staff training is still technically weight training...

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I agree. But its funny when i see them (my students) turning down the wooden staffs to use the steel one. Then they pick up the wooden one and say "wow, its like holding a piece of paper. LOL.

Still, my swords are heavy, my butterfly knives are about 10 lbs (pair), my hatchets are pretty heavy too. at my sifu's school everything was heavy weapons wise.

We have dumbbells from 10 lbs to 55 lbs for each hand. Plus, we have a straight bar and curling bar with steel plates. Students can come and use them anytime that they like, but I do not use martial arts class time for strength training.

When I did most of my teaching, some 35 years ago, we did a lot of calisthenics and I had all my students do 10 pullups before every training session.

Of course I weight trained every non-marital arts training day. But not everyone was into weights way back then. So I never insisted any of my students do so.

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Originally Posted by doug maverick

i think alot of what mma has brought to the martial arts world needs to be incorporated into the kung fu schools..

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At the risk of this thread being derailed I don't think MMA should get credit for bringing weight training to CMA. Last China trip I saw weights at the schools we visited. Stone Locks were around well before MMA.

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Originally Posted by mooyingmantis

We have dumbbells from 10 lbs to 55 lbs for each hand. Plus, we have a straight bar and curling bar with steel plates. Students can come and use them anytime that they like, but I do not use martial arts class time for strength training.

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Seems to be the general consensus - do pushups and weights etc on your own time, class time is for learning.

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Originally Posted by Yao Sing

At the risk of this thread being derailed I don't think MMA should get credit for bringing weight training to CMA. Last China trip I saw weights at the schools we visited. Stone Locks were around well before MMA.



Seems to be the general consensus - do pushups and weights etc on your own time, class time is for learning.

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yea but if you go to your average qwoon you dont see any of that. thats why im suggesting it...plus modern strength training and the stuff done with locks is not exactly the same...im talking about incorporating sports science with traditional martial arts.

We use kettle bells for cardio circuits, but you can lift for strength on your own time.

Oh yeah, i also use those Bands specifically to train specific techniques...

I've been going to the gym for my own personal strength training. the elyptical is a mudda chukka....but its my new friend. the first time i did that machine my legs hurt for days....

seems like im starting to notice more of what i call 'cma gyms', places where cma is trained and taught, but the facility also performs in the capacity of a standard gym as well for all around fitness and development. I think this is a good thing, as long as the owner can support the hours.

we have absolutely no equipment at the judo school. all of our conditioning is done with the body. additional strength training is done on your own time outside of the dojo.

It also depends on what kind of strength training we're talking about. Muscular endurance requires pretty much nothing. Pushups, man... pushups. Do 'em wide for lats, do 'em close for pecs.

Then you could also add a pullup bar. Nothing fancy. Start people off partner assisted, then work your way up.

You could easily get in 50 pushups+ and some pullups in within a couple of minutes. Make it five minutes and you can add lunges and crunches. It's a great way to get the blood flowing too. I recommend starting with a jog in place for a minute or so... some rotations, some stretches, some calisthenics, and then some exercise.

In the Army, we get this all done in less than ten minutes, sometimes faster. Besides... strength is one of the requirements in TCMA. At least in CLF, fitness and nutrition are one of the standards.

The lack of strength training in kung fu is the modern western "innovation".

jog in a big circle, forward, backward, skips both forward backward, sprints forward and backward, lateral side stepping both ways, pushups, situps(various types) burpees(various types), squats, lunges, rolles and dives of various types, one hand cartwheels, shrimps, handstand walking, handstand pushups, shoulder blade crawls, bear crawl, crab crawl, glute scoot, and i know im still missing a ton. but ya generally 15-20 minutes or so. however the most serious of competitors will generally always do weight training as well.

push everthing as hard as you can and try to get the most out of it.

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Originally Posted by wenshu

The lack of strength training in kung fu is the modern western "innovation".

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^^^that.....

see my xing yi sifu always advocated good strength training and nei gung in order to develop good kung fu..he said it was a myth that weights would ruin your kung fu...i mean if you over did it, you might have some problems in term of speed...but if you build it together you can be more well rounded.

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Originally Posted by doug maverick

yea but if you go to your average qwoon you dont see any of that. thats why im suggesting it...plus modern strength training and the stuff done with locks is not exactly the same...im talking about incorporating sports science with traditional martial arts.

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I wouldn't be too sure about modern methods being all that superior. Years ago I watched a program about an ancient Greek Olympian. They had found his grave and exhumed his body. By observing his muscle insertions they were able to determine he was as strong as any modern athlete of his type of activity. I can't remember what event he participated in.

I have been trying to find the program on dvd for a couple of years because I want to revisit the details, but I haven't been able to find it. I doesn't help that I can't remember the name fo the program or what channel it was on!:(

Hearsay, I say!!! :mad:

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Originally Posted by Lucas

Hearsay, I say!!! :mad:

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ARE YOU CALLING ME A LIAR!!!:mad:

A one-stop-shop is geat but I think peeps would get upset if they spent too much of their CMA class acting like a gym. General exercises should be done regularly but on your own time. Before class warm-up and after class cool-down.

What's happening now is the "everything" gym where a regular fitness gym has martail arts, yoga, cardio-kickboxing, etc plus sells smoothies a workout bars.

Some of that comes from low overhead for instructors or peeps just starting to teach. Find a fitness center, gym pr YMCA and work a deal to teach your specialty.

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Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown

ARE YOU CALLING ME A LIAR!!!:mad:

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YOU? No not you, um, some other guy! :eek:

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Originally Posted by Yao Sing

General exercises should be done regularly but on your own time. Before class warm-up and after class cool-down.

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I've never really been a fan of this mentality.
I'm basically forced right now to split my time between 2 or 3 gyms.
The time I have after work to work out is limited.
My time spent doing martial arts IS my own time; my only time.
EDIT: We don't get "before class warm-up and after class cool-down" at my place; as soon as you come in the door, you've got maybe 10 minutes to do some jump rope and then it's whatever the coach wants you to do.

I like the way the krav maga gym I go does it.
If I was just a krav guy, I wouldn't need any other gym.
They have fitness classes (weights, cardio, yoga, etc) and MA classes.
Everything's a set 1 hour duration, with multiple classes going on at the same time all evening. You can mix and match, or split up your days as you desire.
Whatever you do is going to get you fit.
You don't advance in the martial arts part of things until you take X number of classes and are able to display both knowledge of the technique and a fitness level sufficient to pull it off.

I love my muay thai gym, but there are some days I just want to stop in there for some cardio, some bag work, some pad work, and then get the heck out.
I don't often feel like working the same attack/counter drills for an hour.

The muay thai gym has weights, bags, a small ring, and ropes.
There are various cardio/calisthenics routines he's taught over the years.
He usually leaves it up to people to come up with their own weight routines.

My muay thai gym has a similar problem as most boxing gyms - the guys that get the most attention from the coach are the ones that show promise for competition. If you're a 6'3" guy who weighs under 160, you're going to get a lot more attention than even guys who've been there for years.

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Originally Posted by Lucas

YOU? No not you, um, some other guy! :eek:

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Whew! That was close! I thought I was gonna have to call you out at high noon. While I know that your high noon happens to be the same as my high noon, I haven't oiled my six gun in years and I am not sure they even make ammo for it anymore.....

...or was that my last lifetime? I get the two confused sometimes!:o

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Originally Posted by Pork Chop

I've never really been a fan of this mentality.
I'm basically forced right now to split my time between 2 or 3 gyms.
The time I have after work to work out is limited.
My time spent doing martial arts IS my own time; my only time.
EDIT: We don't get "before class warm-up and after class cool-down" at my place; as soon as you come in the door, you've got maybe 10 minutes to do some jump rope and then it's whatever the coach wants you to do.

I like the way the krav maga gym I go does it.
If I was just a krav guy, I wouldn't need any other gym.
They have fitness classes (weights, cardio, yoga, etc) and MA classes.
Everything's a set 1 hour duration, with multiple classes going on at the same time all evening. You can mix and match, or split up your days as you desire.
Whatever you do is going to get you fit.
You don't advance in the martial arts part of things until you take X number of classes and are able to display both knowledge of the technique and a fitness level sufficient to pull it off.

I love my muay thai gym, but there are some days I just want to stop in there for some cardio, some bag work, some pad work, and then get the heck out.
I don't often feel like working the same attack/counter drills for an hour.

The muay thai gym has weights, bags, a small ring, and ropes.
There are various cardio/calisthenics routines he's taught over the years.
He usually leaves it up to people to come up with their own weight routines.

My muay thai gym has a similar problem as most boxing gyms - the guys that get the most attention from the coach are the ones that show promise for competition. If you're a 6'3" guy who weighs under 160, you're going to get a lot more attention than even guys who've been there for years.

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You have a Muay Thai AND a Krav Maga school in San Antonio?? :eek:

I WANT TO MOVE THERE!!!!

Pork Chop, how about the fitness gyms that offer specialized classes (Karate, Yoga, etc)?

Actually I think the best way would be to just freestyle through the day or between a set number of hours, instead of running a regular class. You know, just show up when you can and work on whatever you want/need and have instrructors available to teach individually or small groups.

Some guys doing drills, some light sparring, hitting the heavy bag. We sometimes broke up the class like that after warm-up but not all the time and only during classtime although you could always stop in anytime and workout on your own. That was mostly forms though. I envision peeps coming and going throughout the day working on their own or in groups with available instruction.

That would take a bigger operation than most local schools though.

Never been into a MMA school so maybe they operate like that, at least to me it seems like they would. When my grandson was going to ATT they just had regular classes like any tradional school.

A total gym or a complete workout is all you need to stay fit and strong. In fact, you really don't need to spend your ruples on a fitness gym. You can do all sorts of exercises that are designed to make you strong and fit. The few people I have taught had it explained to them that their fitness and physical strength was extremely important if they were to develop any fighting ability. This was assigned to them as home work. The more often they exercised, the better off they would be. When they showed up at my place they got about 5 minutes to stretch and get the blood flowing and that was it. If you are not interested in your own physical strentgh you will not be focused enough to learn a martial skill. Real stamina is not as important to me. If you need stamina, then you are taking way too long and probably need to turn around and start running.

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Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po

A total gym or a complete workout is all you need to stay fit and strong. In fact, you really don't need to spend your ruples on a fitness gym. You can do all sorts of exercises that are designed to make you strong and fit. The few people I have taught had it explained to them that their fitness and physical strength was extremely important if they were to develop any fighting ability. This was assigned to them as home work. The more often they exercised, the better off they would be. When they showed up at my place they got about 5 minutes to stretch and get the blood flowing and that was it. If you are not interested in your own physical strentgh you will not be focused enough to learn a martial skill. Real stamina is not as important to me. If you need stamina, then you are taking way too long and probably need to turn around and start running.

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i think you are missing the point...the reason why so many kung fu guys walk around with "chi bellies" is because their instructors say oh do that on your own time...but as a teacher you should have a well rounded program...2 days of regular class, 2 days of sparring/pads/bag, 2 days of strength training. can have a 7th day of chi gung or yoga or some tai chi... youll not only produce better students, but healthier ones as well.

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Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown

You have a Muay Thai AND a Krav Maga school in San Antonio?? :eek:

I WANT TO MOVE THERE!!!!

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We've got two of the largest krav maga schools in the country:
http://krav-maga-san-antonio.com

We have a lot of muay thai and mma in this town.

I believe my gym is the longest running and most traditional muay thai gym in town. My coach was born in Laos, lived in Thailand, speaks both, teaches muay thai and a traditional laotian martial art very similar to kung fu passed down from his father. His muay thai coach, a contemporary of the legendary Coban, also used to train us, but has since moved to Las Vegas to take over in the vacuum left by Toddy leaving the country. Coach's coach still comes back on occasion; last time I saw him was at the end of August (I guess he's here now, but that's another story).

We also got Pete Spratt + Aaron Rosa + Rodrigo Pinheiro + Ryan Larson + Bobby Southworth, a BTT afiliate (Marcelo Salazar from the IFL), Team Know Pain (Billy Buchs, Richard Odoms, Mike Rangel and others).

I love living in the bay area.....we got everything in close range. there's a Gracie BJJ school down the street from my apartment. :D

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Originally Posted by Yao Sing

Pork Chop, how about the fitness gyms that offer specialized classes (Karate, Yoga, etc)?

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Well, the Baltimore San Shou Gym used to operate out of Gold's Gym, as did Pat Militech's team back in the day. We had a lot of headaches with them and people disrespecting our equipment - some guy thought it would be a good idea to hang from the fairtex heavy bag I bought and snapped one of the straps.

Like I said, Krav Maga's pulled off the blending of fitness and martial arts the best, imho. They have 1 small room with heavybags and weights for drop-in type workouts; the rest of their classes are all instructor-run. They have an army of instructors and sales staff. I wouldn't be surprised if there were over 1000 members at that gym.

As far as your freestyle idea:
Most boxing gyms are completely freestyle. With muay thai gyms it's about 50/50, between gyms that run classes or open workouts. MMA gyms are almost exclusively classes, except for maybe free weights, cardio, the bag room, and whenever they have open mat.

My muay thai gym used to be structured classes except for Saturday (which was usually a free-for-all), but now they've mostly done away with that (now all freestyle/at coach's discretion). Even during structured classes, there was sometimes freedom to freestyle after the group warmup.

For fitness/warmup I like a structured workout, but for skills & basics work I like freedom.

I think the only beef I have with my muay thai gym currently is the fact that it can be pretty helter-skelter. You can show up wanting to work on certain things, get a few rounds in of what you planned, and then get pulled off to do other stuff depending on who shows up and how the instructor is feeling.

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Originally Posted by hskwarrior

I love living in the bay area.....we got everything in close range. there's a Gracie BJJ school down the street from my apartment. :D

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Yah, we aren't California.... yet...
You guys, especially the bay area, have it way too good.

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Originally Posted by doug maverick

was talking about this with a friend of mine..i have a friend who has a kung fu school here in ny..and as far as i know he is the only kung fu teacher that has a strength training program to go with his kung fu, weights, kettle bells etc. i think alot of what mma has brought to the martial arts world needs to be incorporated into the kung fu schools..alot of karate and ofcourse muay thai schools do it...but kung fu schools lack alot of modern innovations, that will help take your students to the next level..it also raises the profile of your school. any kung fu schools out there who has a program like this?

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I train in CMA and my favorite ST equipment are the kettlebells , which to me is alot heavier than those dumbells . But overall to me I would say that training with kettlebells is just as good as training with dumbells . Kettlebells go with the kilogram while dumbells go by the lb. At one time I was at a target store in Hawaii , and I tried this 15 pound dumbell , **** the same challenge I got when I was lifting up a 15 kilos of kettlebell . So I had my challenge .

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Yah, we aren't California.... yet...
You guys, especially the bay area, have it way too good.

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compared to some other places, this is heaven. northern Cali baby....

We do stance training, lion dance, form, heavy pole work, heavy sword work.... this is all the conditioning you need to produce top quality martial artists.

That and a statue of General Kwan and three fresh oranges.

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We do stance training, lion dance, form, heavy pole work, heavy sword work.... this is all the conditioning you need to produce top quality martial artists.

That and a statue of General Kwan and three fresh oranges.

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can someone say "TRANSPARENT" as the one tracked mind broken record man speaks. IT NEVER CHANGES. DUMMY. LMAO :rolleyes:

gung fu is better off without you LMAO.....you should be p1ssed with your sifu.