Chi Sao - Structure

Right then... In light of all the recent Chi Sao discussions, I thought I'd get one started.

I've been training WSL VT for 9 months or so now and have done some (not a lot though) chi sao.

The way we've been shown keeps everything very tight and central and everything I've been shown and told makes sense and seems to work well in class.

Over the weekend I managed to roll with someone from a totally different lineage (Sam Kwok WC to be more precise) and his style was TOTALLY different... arms wide apart, no structure (as far as fixed elbow positions etc are concerned at least)... but it seemed to be working well for him.

Now I understand that a) he's been training for years as opposed to me training for months and b) there are always going to be trade-offs to some degree or another depending on technique, but I was wondering what sort of technique do you all use?

Mat

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Originally Posted by Treznor

Right then... In light of all the recent Chi Sao discussions, I thought I'd get one started.

I've been training WSL VT for 9 months or so now and have done some (not a lot though) chi sao.

The way we've been shown keeps everything very tight and central and everything I've been shown and told makes sense and seems to work well in class.

Over the weekend I managed to roll with someone from a totally different lineage (Sam Kwok WC to be more precise) and his style was TOTALLY different... arms wide apart, no structure (as far as fixed elbow positions etc are concerned at least)... but it seemed to be working well for him.

Now I understand that a) he's been training for years as opposed to me training for months and b) there are always going to be trade-offs to some degree or another depending on technique, but I was wondering what sort of technique do you all use?

Mat

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Usually at 9 months you should be at single hand still, it takes years and years and years to develop your chi Sao, I would not worry to much about it at this point.

When you say working, what does that mean ? If you are trying to fight already from it, you are probably not doing it right anyway, from the get go.


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Treznor

Right then... In light of all the recent Chi Sao discussions, I thought I'd get one started.

I've been training WSL VT for 9 months or so now and have done some (not a lot though) chi sao.

The way we've been shown keeps everything very tight and central and everything I've been shown and told makes sense and seems to work well in class.

Over the weekend I managed to roll with someone from a totally different lineage (Sam Kwok WC to be more precise) and his style was TOTALLY different... arms wide apart, no structure (as far as fixed elbow positions etc are concerned at least)... but it seemed to be working well for him.

Now I understand that a) he's been training for years as opposed to me training for months and b) there are always going to be trade-offs to some degree or another depending on technique, but I was wondering what sort of technique do you all use?

Mat

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For only 9 months in Wing Chun you quickly picked up on the my WC is better than others syndrome. Wing Chun is known across other martial arts styles as one of the worst in that regard. And you even named the other "deficient" lineage. Things will never change in WC. I think infighting and lineage superiority is inherent is our beloved style. :(

I've not been in any full on free-style exchanges yet but my sifu's been getting me and my VT brother (both started at the same time) rolling and a few simple techniques (jut sau / pak sau etc).

As I mentioned, my mate who came over has been training for years... The last couple being getting private lessons from his sifu... so it's not something that I'm going to be losing any sleep over... I was just a bit surprised at the total difference in techniques.

Mat

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Originally Posted by Phil Redmond

For only 9 months in Wing Chun you quickly picked up on the my WC is better than others syndrome. Wing Chun is known across other martial arts styles as one of the worst in that regard. And you even named the other "deficient" lineage. Things will never change in WC. I think infighting and lineage superiority is inherent is our beloved style. :(

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Sorry if it came across that way Phil... I can assure you that's not what was intended at all...

If you re-read my post I don't think you'll find me stating that any lineage is better than any other (I've not been training long enough / with enough people to have made that decision)... I merely pointed out the BIG difference in technique between the style I train and lineage my mate trains... I named both styles as a point of reference rather more than anything else.

FWIW, so far I have (and in future, always will) keep myself separate from the syndrome you mention... In general, there's nothing that stops me reading threads on here faster than when they degenerate into this.

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Originally Posted by Treznor

Right then... In light of all the recent Chi Sao discussions, I thought I'd get one started.

I've been training WSL VT for 9 months or so now and have done some (not a lot though) chi sao.

The way we've been shown keeps everything very tight and central and everything I've been shown and told makes sense and seems to work well in class.

Over the weekend I managed to roll with someone from a totally different lineage (Sam Kwok WC to be more precise) and his style was TOTALLY different... arms wide apart, no structure (as far as fixed elbow positions etc are concerned at least)... but it seemed to be working well for him.

Now I understand that a) he's been training for years as opposed to me training for months and b) there are always going to be trade-offs to some degree or another depending on technique, but I was wondering what sort of technique do you all use?

Mat

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Mat,
It's always worth remembering that in any lineage there are good and not so good examples. Whilst there are some differences between the poon sau of WSL, Ip Ching, Ip Chun (both of whom influence Sam Kwok's style) lineages, from my experience all of them train adherence to the fixed elbow distance and control of the centre line with relatively "tight" rolling (as compared to students of some other lineages that I have crossed arms with). If your mate has been training for years and appeared to be loose it may be that he was either complacent (and therefore sloppy) or possibly not the best exponent of the lineage upon which to base your views. There will always be differences from school to school (sub lineage to sub lineage) but from my personal experience the rolling platform is reasonably similar across the three lineages mentioned

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Originally Posted by Phil Redmond

For only 9 months in Wing Chun you quickly picked up on the my WC is better than others syndrome. Wing Chun is known across other martial arts styles as one of the worst in that regard. And you even named the other "deficient" lineage. Things will never change in WC. I think infighting and lineage superiority is inherent is our beloved style. :(

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I don’t think he was knocking anyone down. :confused:

For most people that’s how they market or introduce you to their wing chun system (the best or original), I’m glad that some people can see right through that, and every man can evolve or open their mind to an open concept of equality, far as people or systems; which is very, very hard for most to do. ;)

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Originally Posted by Treznor

Right then... In light of all the recent Chi Sao discussions, I thought I'd get one started.

I've been training WSL VT for 9 months or so now and have done some (not a lot though) chi sao.

The way we've been shown keeps everything very tight and central and everything I've been shown and told makes sense and seems to work well in class.

Over the weekend I managed to roll with someone from a totally different lineage (Sam Kwok WC to be more precise) and his style was TOTALLY different... arms wide apart, no structure (as far as fixed elbow positions etc are concerned at least)... but it seemed to be working well for him.

Now I understand that a) he's been training for years as opposed to me training for months and b) there are always going to be trade-offs to some degree or another depending on technique, but I was wondering what sort of technique do you all use?

Mat

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A good teacher and good chi sao will show you your own 'zero point' within your structure which, of course, is different for everyone. Often, most WC teachers will pursue making copies of themselves and/or the students desire to be robots as well. I see this as being one of many conflicts and confusions of the multiple lineages coming down through Ip Man. To truly see structure in someone you have to look past the superficial and look at the big picture of their body unity and triangle structure.

Arms wide apart isn't a disqualifying factor, arms not supported by the body is. I oft times wonder this fascination with pulling the elbow in so tight. It doesn't improve your structure but actually weakens it if you pull in too far. Try this. Go in front of a mirror and be square on to it. Make a V shape with one of your arms(there's a zero point within that too but maybe another time). Now move your elbow outside of the shoulder and gently apply pressure with your other hand inwards towards your center. Now with the same pressure being applied slowly move your elbow inwards to that tight point you were shown within your lineage. Now if you're being honest with yourself and are in tune with your body, I guarantee you that you will feel muscle tension in your upper arm on two sides of that spectrum and knowing what I know about how far WSL guys pull in their elbow I'm sure you will feel it at the point you were shown to pull in to.

Your zero point is where you feel the least amount of tension. That's the big picture look and is one part the individual, one part body mechanics. If you can start to develop this way of looking at things early on in your development you will progress much further in the long run.

Hope that helps....

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Originally Posted by Phil Redmond

For only 9 months in Wing Chun you quickly picked up on the my WC is better than others syndrome. Wing Chun is known across other martial arts styles as one of the worst in that regard. And you even named the other "deficient" lineage. Things will never change in WC. I think infighting and lineage superiority is inherent is our beloved style. :(

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Well, what is to be expected from a style that is suppose to be about principles and attributes BUT everyone fights and argues about STYLE !
LOL !
I wonder what a WC fighter that is 6-5 looks like when FIGHTING with WC compared to one that is 5-4?
Or a 250lbs WC fighter compared to a 125lbs one?

Some are tighter and more compact some are looser whatever works better for the person and whoever wins the fight is what really matters. Chi Sao is a developmental drill that is all.....

Re Treznor's inquiry- wung chun ian has made some sensible comments. Treznor's questions are
beginner's questions- I don't think that he is putting any one down.He is likely to get quite different opinions depending on POVs.

BTW wing chun is not that unique in it's disagreements. Japanese karate is no longer united, there are different schools of clf, there are wide diversities in taiji.Old time Chen man ching folks don't think that Chen style is even taichi(silly)

If someone is serious about wing chun and have good teaching and are learning well-forum noise does not matter. if someone is not satisfied with their wing chun- they can find something else.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Usually at 9 months you should be at single hand still, it takes years and years and years to develop your chi Sao, I would not worry to much about it at this point.

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years and years and years???
;)

Cheers for all the responses guys...

WC1277, I get where you're coming from... When I started rolling, I WAS very tight in on the centre... Over the last few weeks though I do seem to have eased this off to about the point where my elbows are in about the position they'd be if I held my arms out straight with fingers touching on the centre-line. This seems to allow for more fluid, relaxed movement but retains good coverage of my centre.

Mat

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Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

I wonder what a WC fighter that is 6-5 looks like when FIGHTING with WC compared to one that is 5-4?
Or a 250lbs WC fighter compared to a 125lbs one?

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The kinetic energies of the wing chun studies should work the same for everyone when trained properly, size in most cases shouldn’t matter unless one practitioner is more clearly advanced than the other; if not, then it will boil down to: “Who is the better chess player”…

Because I’ve prove this with my students by playing ‘chi sao’ while on my knees and with complete domination, they just went down a little harder/faster (to the floor) after taking three to four strikes…

This may vary from different wing chun families
1. Tan-sao: The shoulders of the tan-sao should always stay or be rounded. The elbows should be/stay chummed out (sink naturally to lowest point without losing good structure). The palm of the tan-sao should line up with your solar plexus /breast plate and sometimes lower. The thumb should remain tucked to use the natural tendon energy (ging-lik-sao). Start off with the thumb relaxed, the more pressure you get, the tighter the thumb becomes, but keep the rest of the arm relaxed, it also helps to support the strength of the tan-sao structure with a minimum use of muscles as long as the elbows have chum and continue to have forward energy and maintain the correct line that the structure is occupying.

2. Bong-Sao: Since the bong-sao is on the same side as the tan-sao and also working in the same cycle, it only seems natural to use the wrist as an axle as you move from tan-sao to bong-sao. As you change from tan-sao to bong-sao the elbow rolls up and the thumb releases from its tuck, all of the fingers relax except for the pinky while the palm faces your opponent. Do not stretch out the pinky, instead line it up with the forearm naturally and remember to keep the other fingers relaxed. While using this technique (pinky and fingers) the natural tendon use of the bong-sao will naturally come to life. This way you can stay fairly soft in developing your chi-sao approach with minimum use of muscles. As you use the bong in the cycle, the movement will resemble a drill bit rotating from the wrist. Using the forward energy from the elbow as it moves into place (natural energy only, no force).

3. Low-Fook: The structure of the low-fook is similar to that of the tan-sao except the fingers are pointed down naturally. With the fingers pointed down the pinky side of the forearm feeds the centerline. The fingers should be dipped straight downward and the shoulders should be/stay rounded. If the elbow is chummed out, and you give slightly forward energy on your fook-sao (forward elbow energy) and as long as you hold the proper line theory, the pinky side of the forearm should jam, wedge or slice any offensive attacks. Always use the simplest approach possible.

4. High-Fook: The high-fook is the same as the low-fook but you are defending lines going to higher gates. Therefore with the high-fook you can mainly control a high offensive line just by keeping the pinky side of the forearm cutting into the structure of your chi-sao partner and keeping fingers of the fook-sao dipped and relaxed at all times (pointing towards to the ground) still using forward elbow energy.

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Originally Posted by Ali. R

This may vary from different wing chun families
1. Tan-sao: The shoulders of the tan-sao should always stay or be rounded. The elbows should be/stay chummed out (sink naturally to lowest point without losing good structure). The palm of the tan-sao should line up with your solar plexus /breast plate and sometimes lower. The thumb should remain tucked to use the natural tendon energy (ging-lik-sao). Start off with the thumb relaxed, the more pressure you get, the tighter the thumb becomes, but keep the rest of the arm relaxed, it also helps to support the strength of the tan-sao structure with a minimum use of muscles as long as the elbows have chum and continue to have forward energy and maintain the correct line that the structure is occupying.

2. Bong-Sao: Since the bong-sao is on the same side as the tan-sao and also working in the same cycle, it only seems natural to use the wrist as an axle as you move from tan-sao to bong-sao. As you change from tan-sao to bong-sao the elbow rolls up and the thumb releases from its tuck, all of the fingers relax except for the pinky while the palm faces your opponent. Do not stretch out the pinky, instead line it up with the forearm naturally and remember to keep the other fingers relaxed. While using this technique (pinky and fingers) the natural tendon use of the bong-sao will naturally come to life. This way you can stay fairly soft in developing your chi-sao approach with minimum use of muscles. As you use the bong in the cycle, the movement will resemble a drill bit rotating from the wrist. Using the forward energy from the elbow as it moves into place (natural energy only, no force).

3. Low-Fook: The structure of the low-fook is similar to that of the tan-sao except the fingers are pointed down naturally. With the fingers pointed down the pinky side of the forearm feeds the centerline. The fingers should be dipped straight downward and the shoulders should be/stay rounded. If the elbow is chummed out, and you give slightly forward energy on your fook-sao (forward elbow energy) and as long as you hold the proper line theory, the pinky side of the forearm should jam, wedge or slice any offensive attacks. Always use the simplest approach possible.

4. High-Fook: The high-fook is the same as the low-fook but you are defending lines going to higher gates. Therefore with the high-fook you can mainly control a high offensive line just by keeping the pinky side of the forearm cutting into the structure of your chi-sao partner and keeping fingers of the fook-sao dipped and relaxed at all times (pointing towards to the ground) still using forward elbow energy.

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This is all completely different to our thinking....

We try to promote the softest approach while holding correct structures and while using ‘jing lik sao’ (tendon energies). Tendons cannot be seen or felt right away, because they are much smaller than muscles; about 1000 times smaller but three times stronger than muscles.

The normal man’s muscles began to stretch or give way @ just over 500lbs, but the tendons start to give way @ well over a ton, which only makes sense to use proper structures while playing ‘chi sao’, because the tendons are closer to the bone than the muscles.

Great post...i love your explanation on energy and how the techniques should feel.

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Originally Posted by ali. R

this may vary from different wing chun families
1. Tan-sao: The shoulders of the tan-sao should always stay or be rounded. The elbows should be/stay chummed out (sink naturally to lowest point without losing good structure). The palm of the tan-sao should line up with your solar plexus /breast plate and sometimes lower. The thumb should remain tucked to use the natural tendon energy (ging-lik-sao). Start off with the thumb relaxed, the more pressure you get, the tighter the thumb becomes, but keep the rest of the arm relaxed, it also helps to support the strength of the tan-sao structure with a minimum use of muscles as long as the elbows have chum and continue to have forward energy and maintain the correct line that the structure is occupying.

2. Bong-sao: Since the bong-sao is on the same side as the tan-sao and also working in the same cycle, it only seems natural to use the wrist as an axle as you move from tan-sao to bong-sao. As you change from tan-sao to bong-sao the elbow rolls up and the thumb releases from its tuck, all of the fingers relax except for the pinky while the palm faces your opponent. Do not stretch out the pinky, instead line it up with the forearm naturally and remember to keep the other fingers relaxed. While using this technique (pinky and fingers) the natural tendon use of the bong-sao will naturally come to life. This way you can stay fairly soft in developing your chi-sao approach with minimum use of muscles. As you use the bong in the cycle, the movement will resemble a drill bit rotating from the wrist. Using the forward energy from the elbow as it moves into place (natural energy only, no force).

3. Low-fook: The structure of the low-fook is similar to that of the tan-sao except the fingers are pointed down naturally. With the fingers pointed down the pinky side of the forearm feeds the centerline. The fingers should be dipped straight downward and the shoulders should be/stay rounded. If the elbow is chummed out, and you give slightly forward energy on your fook-sao (forward elbow energy) and as long as you hold the proper line theory, the pinky side of the forearm should jam, wedge or slice any offensive attacks. Always use the simplest approach possible.

4. High-fook: The high-fook is the same as the low-fook but you are defending lines going to higher gates. Therefore with the high-fook you can mainly control a high offensive line just by keeping the pinky side of the forearm cutting into the structure of your chi-sao partner and keeping fingers of the fook-sao dipped and relaxed at all times (pointing towards to the ground) still using forward elbow energy.

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Originally Posted by Ali. R

We try to promote the softest approach while holding correct structures and while using ‘jing lik sao’ (tendon energies). Tendons cannot be seen or felt right away, because they are much smaller than muscles; about 1000 times smaller but three times stronger than muscles.

The normal man’s muscles began to stretch or give way @ just over 500lbs, but the tendons start to give way @ well over a ton, which only makes sense to use proper structures while playing ‘chi sao’, because the tendons are closer to the bone than the muscles.

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:confused:

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Originally Posted by k gledhill

:confused:

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Shoot me, shoot me now.

I could help understand if you tell me what’s confusing you, because I’m sure you’re not into suicide, but only want to find the out what I’m saying. I’m not trying to confuse people intentionally, please forgive if that happed.

Anyone with over 10 good years or experience sometimes a little less (with a good teacher) can truly relate or knows this, because there’s nothing new in what I’m saying here.

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Originally Posted by Ali. R

We try to promote the softest approach while holding correct structures and while using ‘jing lik sao’ (tendon energies). Tendons cannot be seen or felt right away, because they are much smaller than muscles; about 1000 times smaller but three times stronger than muscles.

The normal man’s muscles began to stretch or give way @ just over 500lbs, but the tendons start to give way @ well over a ton, which only makes sense to use proper structures while playing ‘chi sao’, because the tendons are closer to the bone than the muscles.

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This is what I want you to do to prove what I’m saying is real:

Put a good/proper ‘tao sao’ structure in front of you and let your partner push or pull it or move it from left to right without the thumb being tucked, then try it while tucking the thumb and with very little muscle mass ‘jing lik sao’, the more pressure you get the tighter you make the thumb, then all will –or- should come into fruition.

The energies/control that you feel while doing this test are the energies that we use consistently when fighting or playing ‘chi sao’ because we fight mostly with the ulna and radius and not the hands, because the hand is nothing until the moment of impact. I’m sorry, I think I’m putting a little too much out there; as far as replies goes.

Forgive me,

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Originally Posted by Ali. R

we fight mostly with the ulna and radius and not the hands, because the hand is nothing until the moment of impact.

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If your forearm can touch your opponent's forearm, your hand can grab and pull your opponent's wrist, and punch his face with another hand at that moment. Since your hand has to pass your opponent's wrist (outer gate) in order to allow your forearm to touch your opponent's forearm (middle gate), what do you mean "the hand is nothing until the moment of impact"?

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

If your forearm can touch your opponent's forearm, your hand can grab and pull your opponent's wrist, and punch his face with another hand at that moment. Since your hand has to pass your opponent's wrist (outer gate) in order to allow your forearm to touch your opponent's forearm (middle gate), what do you mean "the hand is nothing until the moment of impact"?

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If our hands are put into the position to touch another’s forearm and if we decide to move structures with our fingers or palm first, and not use the ulna and radius (the pinky & thumb side of the forearm), our hands will only become tight/stiff upon the execution of application.

Therefore when the hands/fingers become tight the arm gets tight, and when the arm gets tight the torso become tight as well, causing stress within one’s overall structure; ringing true to the measure of: “The hand is nothing until the moment of impact”.

Always keeping the hands lose/relaxed; and full of dynamite and not preoccupied with intentions or applications, which can be easily read against you (sensitivity).