Actually..
My question should be not 'is it possible"..but rather "is it LIKELY".
I've met some people who claim to be able to knock someone out from a distance using chi-projection.
One individual had people attack him and moved his body a certain way from a distance and the opponents fell..
Can anyone say with decades of practice if it's possible?
I dont believe its possible or likely. The closest recorded accounts I've personally read are japanese samurai/sword masters projecting kiai and subduing small birds at a close range. But that also could be a complete falacy, or even just do to shock a particular breed of bird may experience under such conditions..ie: a set up.
qi projection though to knock someone down/out? nope. If I ever met anyone claiming that I would ask them to do it to me and then laugh when they couldnt.
Here is what really happens when a Kiai master /Qi projector of a high rank meets a fighter who is not a brain washed student.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
Years ago I was a Pentecostal minister. I knew of several "evangelists" that would wave their hands toward people and they would fall over. Same phenomenon, gullibility is a powerful tool.
I also am an ordained Penecostal minister. I am an aethiest too, but I can preach up a storm for you. Now, It is usually called The Holy Spirit, but it is self inflicted. If you believe in something strong enough you will feel it or it will effect you. Only a true believer would approach the evangelist to be healed anyway, so naturally he or she would collapse at a simple touch.Quote:
Originally Posted by mooyingmantis
I think that this is exactly what is happening with these Chi Shooters. Chi is only the energy within your body and you can not project it in any way. It is not some force you can control. It is simply the energy of life within your body.
I was walking to work one day, and I was short cutting down an alley behind some row houses. Only Chinese people lived in these old homes. I heard a loud, Hai!! and wondered what it was. There was this tall concrete wall around the back yard. I heard that several times and so climbed up and peeked over to see. An old gentleman seen me and envited me in. He explained that he was trying to develop his Chi to the point of killing a small bird in a cage. I watched him for a time then left. I stopped the next day and had a few more questions for him. I asked him if he had ever killed the birds. He said he had never been able to kill a bird yet. I asked him how long he had been trying and he said he had been working on it for 25 years.
Kidding aside..
This is what I am talking about..at the 1:39 second mark..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGfx1...ure=g-logo-xit
As an individual who has trained in Lin Kong Jing zhan zhuang (the system taught originally by Paul Dong) for over 10 years the answer is:Quote:
Originally Posted by LaterthanNever
NO!
Anyone who tells you otherwise is either deluded or is being dishonest.
Lin Kong Jing
Watch Out for LKJ Scam Artists
Train Hard,
Josh Skinner
that video is only 1:24 long.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaterthanNever
I'm too tired right now to search&post or merge.
Read No Touch Knockouts: Pressure Points and Qi Projection (2002 July/August) by me. :cool:
I think I still have that issue somewhere in storage...Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneChing
It's an interview with Wally Jay and you ask him to do a "no touch knockout" on you right?
If I remember correctly, he wasn't successful. Also I think the article included some sort of "Qi Ball" type exercise, right?
Regardless, I'm still quite sure that no one can knockdown or knock out a determined, aggressive attacker with their "Qi" (I use Yang, Jwing Ming's definition: bioelectromagnetic energy).
I don't doubt that one person can feel the Qi of another. But causing physical damage or unconsciousness with it is a whole other story...
I did challenge Leon to knock me out without touching me. He was unsuccessful. I saw Leon at Wally Jay: Memories of a Legend about two months ago. He said he was up to an impressive number of no-touch knock outs, but I can't remember exactly what that number was.
I would be curious to see how many of those are against non-compliant, non students, that are resisting.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneChing
Gene,
Thank you! I didn't know it was acutually posted before. I will look for it.
Best,
LTN
Oh yes it's completely possible. The first step is mastering your back flexibility so you can lean all the way backward and firmly insert your head into your rectum.
In his attempts, did you get knocked about? Did you actually feel the impact of his Chi? Or was there any sensation at all? In all, everyone I have ever spoken with on this subject told me no, nothing at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneChing
"As an individual who has trained in Lin Kong Jing zhan zhuang (the system taught originally by Paul Dong) for over 10 years the answer is: "
Not to offend...
But it took you over a deacade to realize that it was bogus?
Here is the simple answer: whenever you hear someone say they can do this, simply ask them to do it to you. It doesn't work if you're not a willing or gullible participant.
Every time I read something on this I have to think the people wondering about it are not adults. Projecting Chi is like voodoo, magic, or some other BS. Ima tell you agin. You can not project your chi in any form or fashion. It cannot be done, not by anyone. Anyone claiming to be able to do it are liars, and they know that they are liars. And anyone that keeps asking and asking about it are just wishing and hoping that it is real so that they have a chance of learning it. It just can't be done and that is that. Forget about it and move on. Look into something that is more realistic. Study pressure points, Dim Mak, things like that. It is real and you can learn it. You just can't poke your finger into something from across the room.
Actually Lee pressure points aren't all that useful. They're hard to locate reliably under pressure because they're so small which means if you could use a pressure point you are under little enough pressure from your opponent that you could simply use any number of restraining joint locks.
Feeling another person's qi is easy and learning how to use qi is vey important for learning things like fajin. Also people with some practice can certainly use it in healing other people which means that it can also be used for hurting other people. However the highest level that I have experienced has just been making people dizzy. I don't know if it's possible to do more than that but since it's not likely to find any honest practitioner who can knock out and is willing to teach it I'd say forget about it.
No offence taken...you're right, it should have taken me much less time to realize that. I blame most of it on being young and simply wanting it to be true.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaterthanNever
But I want to be clear that I don't think the entire system is bogus - the zhan zhuang, the qigong, the mental drills (which help you build a "fighters mindset"), and the strength building drills all have their place. I just don't think any of that training will allow you to harm a serious attacker with Qi.
So, I still train a variation of Paul Dong's system and I still call it Lin Kong Jing training...it just has a different meaning for me.
If it was possible, don't you think it would be widely studied and used?
Of course it's not possible, probable or likely. It's nonsense.
An air cannon? yes. A human being? NO. emphatically.
Again with the ignorance and assumptions. You have not been in many real fights and it shows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon
If you can hit harder and stronger than an untrained person any point you hit can be a pressure point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon
Pressure points aren't that hard to find or to attack...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8R0kwxHmZV...nt%2BChart.jpg
In fact, back when I used to work as security I would use pressure point grabs and holds all the time to gain the compliance of unruly individuals I was arresting.
"Every time I read something on this I have to think the people wondering about it are not adults"
Was that necessary?
donjitsu,
I really didn't mean to imply that you are gullable,etc.
I myself do reserve a very small ammount of doubt as to whether its not possible otherwise I would not have posted the thread..
Perhaps a more moderate view to take would be I think it's possible to "listen to force" and "dissolve force" such as in Tai Chi...after all, it's part of the basis for the art when blending in with the opponents energy.
Knocking someone down without touching them..by necessity requires looking at added variables such as the opponents (as well as the broadcaster of chi) belief system, effects of the environmental setting(this is seen in NLP or neurolinguistic programming), energy level of both participants, force of energy directed, distance between opponents,etc...
I do not think it's IMpossible..
I do wonder how likely it is...
Chi is something that is always of question by the public because there are so many different definitions given. In reality, your chi is simply your drive train. It is the bodily energy that you expend in order to carry out your daily chores. Your personal core energy. When you die, it ceases to exist. But as long as you live there has to be at least some life force energy. This energy can not be extended beyond your own outer peremeters. It can not be extended beyond the tips of your fingers beyond the skin. You can indeed learn to use this core energy, or Chi, to your best advantage, but you simply cannot use it as a projected weapon.
As for pressure points, there are likely a couple hundred of them that are very easily available for use. They are not pin points of nerves, but large areas that can be accessed quite easily. You can grab someone using pressure points, hit someone using pressure points, kick someone using a pressure point. In fact, almost everything I do amounts to the use of pressure points. They work for me too. Even blocking or parying a blow is usually done in a way that I strike a pressure point, and it is usually very effective.
"It can not be extended beyond the tips of your fingers beyond the skin."
Again..how do we know this for certain? Science tells us that it's impossible for a bumblebee to fly! And yet? It DOES!
Our energy body extends beyond our skin.
I think they mean they don't understand how it can fly, not that it is impossible. It is a matter of expression. By saying "It is impossible" they really mean they don't understand how it can happen according to known rules of aerodynamics.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaterthanNever
It is clearly "possible", because it occurs!
Our energy fields extend beyond our body's physical boundary, how those fields interact with our environment is still open to discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by xinyidizi
Since I choose to be a creature of cause and effect, I look at it this way!Quote:
Originally Posted by LaterthanNever
Take 2 people, train 1 in MMA or BJJ, and train the other in chi fighting, who do you thik will be the winner after 6 months of training. We have to specify "touch' or 'no touch chi fighting'. It is that simple, don't you think?
Yeah but the chi fighter will be able to defeat the MMA in 80 years, plus or minus,.....Quote:
Originally Posted by mawali
......or as soon as the MMA dies from old age!;)
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon
People who have actually gotten into a serious fight with a skilled opponent know they're often lucky just to land a solid blow to a general region such as "head", "guts" or "groin".
There are pressure points all over the body. Hit someone anywhere and you hit a pressure point.
But the effective pressure points have to be hit in certain ways and often in conjunction with other pressure points. A feat nearly impossible to pull off in a fight. If it were otherwise you'd be knocking people unconscious every time you shook someone's hand or patted them on the back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tame The Tiger
There is plenty of the effective points on places that are easy to attack like the abdomen, the chest, the legs, ... but a good fajin and a good knowledge of the points is necessary for dianxue. There are specific methods for getting fast in dianxue similar to how very experienced acupuncturists needle very fast without needing to measure anything.
If you're in a fight and it's "easy to attack" the abdomen, chest or legs, then you're fighting a little kid.
A real opponent doesn't make it so easy...
Don't get me wrong: I'm not dissing pressure points - I just think they're better for healing than for fighting. Patients tend to cooperate, bad ass dudes that want to stomp your head into the pavement don't.
Well eventually you have to hit one of those places if you want to win and if you train dianxue you will automatically go for the effective points without thinking and the good thing about them is that some people might not guard them very well as they suppose they can take a hit in that place but a piercing strike on the points is not something average opponents can handle. However if your opponent is way too strong for you then there isn't much you can do using any tricks and it's better to run.
we all strike for viatal points, even pro boxers. vagus nerve, temple, lower ribs, nose, etc.
A real opponent doesn't make it so easy... "
Not easy? If you can connect a fist w/ someones jaw..then why can't you hit the Bai Hui point on top of the crown? According to Dr. Yang Jwing Ming..that's where the yin/yang interchange occurs(that governs all life)
Word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas
I find pressure points to be very handy in grappling situations, but when it comes to striking not so much. Not that it can't help, it just becomes significantly more difficult to find small areas on a moving body that you don't have a hand on.
"Actually Lee pressure points aren't all that useful. They're hard to locate reliably under pressure because they're so small which means if you could use a pressure point you are under little enough pressure from your opponent that you could simply use any number of restraining joint locks."
A friendly reminder..this was not the subject of the original discussion
Only an oura of your body heat. And that is only visible by ultra violent viewers. I made a deal with the devil to acquire my power and skill. But I still cannot project my qi beyond my finger tips. I can drive them into your flesh, but only if my arm is long enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by xinyidizi
As for comparing bee's to Qi's, bees can fly. Impossible or not, they do fly. However, if you live to be 100, you will not learn to throw your chi, and you will find no one that can. Start now to make it fair.