Decision on Kung Fu Schools - New student

So i'm new to the site, Kung Fu and martial arts in general. This past summer I spent a good month in China, and a few days at the Shaolin Temple and International Shaolin Kung Fu Academy outside of Luoyang. Watching, seeing and semi-participating I became fascinated with the art; philosophy and discipline. I promised my self I would take up Kung Fu once time freed up at home. As for my self, i'm in my mid 20's, pretty fit and have my own business, so i'm quit busy but looking to supplement some time at night, and even change my gym routine up to something different.

So that time has come, and in the past few weeks I have been visiting several Kung Fu schools in the area (Long Island/Queens.) Unfortunately there aren't many. From the three I visited, 2 seemed based solely upon self defense and application of the art in the real world. But, i'm not one to be a fighter, I dont pick fights, I have never been in a fight, and i'm not quit sure that's exactly what I want; though it seems cool to know. I already knocked 1 out of the 3 schools out. I'm having a hard time deciding really between the other two located in Flushing NY.

So to start with the first; it was based on Shaolin Kung Fu, fundamentals I saw in china. Practicality, I don't know yet; as far as applications I haven't seen enough either. But in an hour class, I broke a nasty sweat and used muscles I never even knew existed before. I could barely walk the next day... And i'm used to going to the gym, running 3-5 times a week. The unfortunate part was the mix of very few adults, some kids and a few immature teenagers; as well as the language barrier. It was very hard to communicate with the Sifu; (who did study at the Shaolin temple in China) some of the students had to translate for me; though when I wasn't doing things right, he physically moved me. As a traditionalist, this school had no belts; and no fee's for testing which is a plus.

The second school, the Sifu was very pleasant, knowledgeable in traditional Kung Fu, and has been practicing for over 20 years. I was able to easily speak with him, and understand all the physical movements and application. He also helped translate how one movement can be seen as a grab or punch. But from other friends in Martial Arts for years, they mention these are things you don't or shouldn't need to know until you master then basic fundamentals which can take months or even years. The class was 3 hours though, it was a lot of information to take in at once. However in 3 hours, I didn't break a sweat. A few stretches, a few movements, punches on a bag etc... Movements were tough but other students took their time and helped me. Some of the skilled students practiced weaponry towards the end which was pretty cool to see. But watching people of different belts; it seemed there wasn't much fluid motion to a lot of the movements; a lot of staggering, though some of these guys did know how to defend themselves. All adults in this class which was comfortable as well.


So to sum it up; I'm stuck between deciding on two classes which seem to be two different styles of Kung Fu from movements to philosphy. More then anything i'm looking to hear peoples advise and experience in what they trained/mastered in; expectations etc... I'm looking at the long haul here.

Thanks in advanced.

Never mind what we think - what feels better to you? What works better in your schedule? Which one will you be able to practice more?

The one with the hotter chicks is always the best. Pretty girls hate losers.

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Originally Posted by MasterKiller

The one with the hotter chicks is always the best. Pretty girls hate losers.

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I 2nd this!

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Originally Posted by MasterKiller

The one with the hotter chicks is always the best. Pretty girls hate losers.

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This would have been my first go to point, but unfortunately neither have Chics. So now I'm back to square one.

As per comfort level, I wouldn't know. In a single day of trials they both seemed pretty easy, Shaolin was a bit more of a challenge which i liked but this was also the class that seemed to show less application.

But again, looking to hear others stories, experiences etc... Trying to keep an open mind. If I had the money, and time I would do both!

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Originally Posted by mjwny

He also helped translate how one movement can be seen as a grab or punch.

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When someone gives explanation like that, there may be some problem there.

A

- grab cannot be a punch, and a punch cannot be a grab.
- step cannot be a kick, and a kick cannot be a step.
- hip throw cannot be a shoulder throw, and a shoulder throw cannot be a hip throw.

When a teacher tried to map a form move into application, he is taking the wrong path in the 1st place.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

When someone gives explanation like that, there may be some problem there.

A

- grab cannot be a punch, and a punch cannot be a grab.
- step cannot be a kick, and a kick cannot be a step.
- hip throw cannot be a shoulder throw, and a shoulder throw cannot be a hip throw.

When a teacher tried to map a form move into application, he is taking the wrong path in the 1st place.

---

Exactly the kind of feedback i'm looking for, thank you. Now, as I have no experience, so please dont mind my ignorance but after learning forms for lets say.. a year, aren't they eventually put into application of some sort?

You will need many tools in combat. A teacher should

- help you to develop one tool after another tool,
- not help you to learn one form after another form.

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Originally Posted by mjwny

Exactly the kind of feedback i'm looking for, thank you. Now, as I have no experience, so please dont mind my ignorance but after learning forms for lets say.. a year, aren't they eventually put into application of some sort?

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They should be put into application almost immediately. You should be learning applications as you learn the form, then trying them out with partners. It's not a bad thing to learn the applications before the form.

Don't be afraid to ask for it. Some guys will just keep going with the form if no one shows interest in application. I always questioned any app that wasn't obvious.

The 1st day that I met my longfist teacher, I was only 14 years old, I asked him, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" He said, "Come and punch me." When I punched him, he pulled my arm into him, used his foot to block my leading leg, and threw me forward. For the remaining years, in his mind, I was always a bad boy who cared nothing but fighting.

Today, I'm a teacher myself. I only teacher students who "cares nothing but fighting". A bad teacher always teaches bad students.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

The 1st day that I met my longfist teacher, I was only 14 years old, I asked him, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" He said, "Come and punch me." When I punched him, he pulled my arm into him, used his foot to block my leading leg, and thrown me forward. For the remaining years, in his mind, I was alway a bad boy who cares only fighting.

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Yeah exactly don't do that to your sifu lol. But at that age a child hardly knows the boundaries of rudeness.

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Originally Posted by mjwny

So i'm new to the site, Kung Fu and martial arts in general. This past summer I spent a good month in China, and a few days at the Shaolin Temple and International Shaolin Kung Fu Academy outside of Luoyang. Watching, seeing and semi-participating I became fascinated with the art; philosophy and discipline. I promised my self I would take up Kung Fu once time freed up at home. As for my self, i'm in my mid 20's, pretty fit and have my own business, so i'm quit busy but looking to supplement some time at night, and even change my gym routine up to something different.

So that time has come, and in the past few weeks I have been visiting several Kung Fu schools in the area (Long Island/Queens.) Unfortunately there aren't many. From the three I visited, 2 seemed based solely upon self defense and application of the art in the real world. But, i'm not one to be a fighter, I dont pick fights, I have never been in a fight, and i'm not quit sure that's exactly what I want; though it seems cool to know. I already knocked 1 out of the 3 schools out. I'm having a hard time deciding really between the other two located in Flushing NY.

So to start with the first; it was based on Shaolin Kung Fu, fundamentals I saw in china. Practicality, I don't know yet; as far as applications I haven't seen enough either. But in an hour class, I broke a nasty sweat and used muscles I never even knew existed before. I could barely walk the next day... And i'm used to going to the gym, running 3-5 times a week. The unfortunate part was the mix of very few adults, some kids and a few immature teenagers; as well as the language barrier. It was very hard to communicate with the Sifu; (who did study at the Shaolin temple in China) some of the students had to translate for me; though when I wasn't doing things right, he physically moved me. As a traditionalist, this school had no belts; and no fee's for testing which is a plus.

The second school, the Sifu was very pleasant, knowledgeable in traditional Kung Fu, and has been practicing for over 20 years. I was able to easily speak with him, and understand all the physical movements and application. He also helped translate how one movement can be seen as a grab or punch. But from other friends in Martial Arts for years, they mention these are things you don't or shouldn't need to know until you master then basic fundamentals which can take months or even years. The class was 3 hours though, it was a lot of information to take in at once. However in 3 hours, I didn't break a sweat. A few stretches, a few movements, punches on a bag etc... Movements were tough but other students took their time and helped me. Some of the skilled students practiced weaponry towards the end which was pretty cool to see. But watching people of different belts; it seemed there wasn't much fluid motion to a lot of the movements; a lot of staggering, though some of these guys did know how to defend themselves. All adults in this class which was comfortable as well.


So to sum it up; I'm stuck between deciding on two classes which seem to be two different styles of Kung Fu from movements to philosphy. More then anything i'm looking to hear peoples advise and experience in what they trained/mastered in; expectations etc... I'm looking at the long haul here.

Thanks in advanced.

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First of all, welcome friend. Maybe you should ask the first sifu if there is an adults only class? I believe I know of that sifu if he is who I think he is, not personally. Secondly do what you prefer, is one class easier to get to, fits in your schedule better, more relaxed/intense, everyone treated equally or by rank etc. Ask yourself these questions and more or if you really like both try both or even be enrolled in both if you can, Most sifu these days don't really mind you taking another class.

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Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette

They should be put into application almost immediately. You should be learning applications as you learn the form, then trying them out with partners. It's not a bad thing to learn the applications before the form.

Don't be afraid to ask for it. Some guys will just keep going with the form if no one shows interest in application. I always questioned any app that wasn't obvious.

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Is this dependent on the principals of the Sifu? I mentioned this because the first class I attended had said in their adult fundamentals classes they teach you basic forms and movements, really teach your body to be flexible and understand the principals; once you pass your first test they then teach you application.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

The 1st day that I met my longfist teacher, I was only 14 years old, I asked him, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" He said, "Come and punch me." When I punched him, he pulled my arm into him, used his foot to block my leading leg, and threw me forward. For the remaining years, in his mind, I was always a bad boy who cared nothing but fighting.

Today, I'm a teacher myself. I only teacher students who "cares nothing but fighting".

---

I found this true to be more-so with the second class I tried out. Showing how to counter the moves - but again moves that were application of basic forms taught not much earlier.

I didn't get a chance to see any application in the first class.

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Originally Posted by Raipizo

First of all, welcome friend. Maybe you should ask the first sifu if there is an adults only class? I believe I know of that sifu if he is who I think he is, not personally. Secondly do what you prefer, is one class easier to get to, fits in your schedule better, more relaxed/intense, everyone treated equally or by rank etc. Ask yourself these questions and more or if you really like both try both or even be enrolled in both if you can, Most sifu these days don't really mind you taking another class.

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Thank you Raipizo. If you know him, can you PM me; I have a few questions; I wouldn't want to toss out names here in public; as I dont want to disrespect anyone.

The first sifu, was an adult class, they happen to mix in some teenagers. Their children classes seem to be 5-10 give or take. Both classes happen to be around the block from each other and have very similar schedules - but given so, the second class's 3 hour timeframe is a bit long. However both classes had much equality between ranks and age. I really considered doing both, but again together it's a bit expensive considering they require 3 months minimum. The second class was pretty adamant about doing things their way and not confusing it with other forms.

Thank's all for the input so far.

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Originally Posted by mjwny

Is this dependent on the principals of the Sifu? I mentioned this because the first class I attended had said in their adult fundamentals classes they teach you basic forms and movements, really teach your body to be flexible and understand the principals; once you pass your first test they then teach you application.

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Different sifus have different ways of teaching. For instance some will have one class where they touch on everything...others may have a class where they do basics, self defense and forms and a different class for sanda,where they condition and spar. Others may just teach you forms and basics and not much else.

The important thing is that you are getting the applications and a chance to practice them...whether he does that while he's teaching a form or after he feels you have it down. That is, if your interested in self defense. If your only interested in the art/performance aspects of forms; or just want a different work out, then the apps may not matter to you at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mjwny

So to sum it up; I'm stuck between deciding on two classes which seem to be two different styles of Kung Fu from movements to philosphy. More then anything i'm looking to hear peoples advise and experience in what they trained/mastered in; expectations etc... I'm looking at the long haul here.

Thanks in advanced.

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hi

buy a dvd/learn from youtube

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Originally Posted by bawang

hi

buy a dvd/learn from youtube

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More so look up the two styles on YouTube and see what you like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mjwny

Is this dependent on the principals of the Sifu? I mentioned this because the first class I attended had said in their adult fundamentals classes they teach you basic forms and movements, really teach your body to be flexible and understand the principals; once you pass your first test they then teach you application.

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This is the more traditional way to teach, I believe.

If you find a good teacher you have confidence in, I'd say just give yourself to the method the way he teaches it: forwards, backwards or whatever. Just follow the program and practice a lot on your own between classes. After a time you'll have so much more perspective on everything that if you need to look for something different you'll be better equipped to ask questions and make decisions. my 2€

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Originally Posted by bawang

hi

buy a dvd/learn from youtube

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Where can I purchase a Wombat Combat dvd?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rett

This is the more traditional way to teach, I believe.

If you find a good teacher you have confidence in, I'd say just give yourself to the method the way he teaches it: forwards, backwards or whatever. Just follow the program and practice a lot on your own between classes. After a time you'll have so much more perspective on everything that if you need to look for something different you'll be better equipped to ask questions and make decisions. my 2€

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Thanks Rett. Absolutely agree.

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Originally Posted by rett

This is the more "traditional way to teach", I believe.

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If we look at the "inner hook (Ouchi Gari)", this clip shows the footwork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir0_ND2xIho

This clip shows the set up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4IxLY9n_-o

This clip shows how to use it against noncompliant opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDdMbxsD0z8

What more information do you need? You first train your legs. After you get used to your legwork, you then train your hands. The hands move can be more complicated because in combat situation, your opponent won't allow you to grab him as shown in those clips.

After you have learned the "inner hook", you will find out that the "leg lift", "leg twist", and "front cut" can all be learned exactly the same way, with the same footwork, and the same set up. Now you will have 4 tools in your toolbox. This is why a teacher should help you to develop those tools that you need by starting from

- foootwork,
- set up,
- execution,

and not just fill you up with form after form.

This is the "traditional way to teach" a throwing art. Why the traditional striking art doesn't use this approach? I still don't understand even today. :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette

Where can I purchase a Wombat Combat dvd?

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WC dvd can only be purchased with blood or a vial of full grown men's tears. When you are ready, with payment plan, the dvd will present itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mjwny

This would have been my first go to point, but unfortunately neither have Chics. So now I'm back to square one.

As per comfort level, I wouldn't know. In a single day of trials they both seemed pretty easy, Shaolin was a bit more of a challenge which i liked but this was also the class that seemed to show less application.

But again, looking to hear others stories, experiences etc... Trying to keep an open mind. If I had the money, and time I would do both!

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I think you came to the wrong place for advise.

Good Luck

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

I think you came to the wrong place for advise.

Good Luck

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I wonder what kind of advise that mjwny may get if he goes to a forum that talks about:

- health,
- self-cultivation, and
- inner peace.

People in this forum may not have all reached to the "spiritual level" yet, but at least we all care about "combat".

So when you say that in the shaolin class you broke a good sweat and got a good work out, but there was no real application work, do you mean that the entire class was composed of form work, or was there some good solid conditioning and drills taking place? Have you asked the current students if there are application days where that is the focus? a lot of times you may not get the full spectrum in one day.

I am skeptical of a martial arts class where you do not break a sweat in a 3 hour class. Perhaps that was a special occasion day? I also am skeptical of a class that does not begin a new student of martial arts by building a foundation through introductory beginner basics. These are required building blocks that one needs to be able to progress at a consistant solid rate of understanding.

all in all, as a beginner, i don't believe in many cases you will get a full picture in just one class. if you have some experience and know what you are looking for this is definately possible, but if you have absolutely zero experience, you may want to visit two or three more times to get a more rounded idea of the actual exposure you would get there.

"If we look at the "inner hook (Ouchi Gari)", this clip shows the footwork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir0_ND2xIho "
Looks like Salsa...lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpj5AUgy37g

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

If we look at the "inner hook (Ouchi Gari)", this clip shows the footwork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir0_ND2xIho

This clip shows the set up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4IxLY9n_-o

This clip shows how to use it against noncompliant opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDdMbxsD0z8

What more information do you need? You first train your legs. After you get used to your legwork, you then train your hands. The hands move can be more complicated because in combat situation, your opponent won't allow you to grab him as shown in those clips.

After you have learned the "inner hook", you will find out that the "leg lift", "leg twist", and "front cut" can all be learned exactly the same way, with the same footwork, and the same set up. Now you will have 4 tools in your toolbox. This is why a teacher should help you to develop those tools that you need by starting from

- foootwork,
- set up,
- execution,

and not just fill you up with form after form.

This is the "traditional way to teach" a throwing art. Why the traditional striking art doesn't use this approach? I still don't understand even today. :confused:

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Check out this KO with Harai Goshi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRNHFuNL0mc

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Originally Posted by pateticorecords

"If we look at the "inner hook (Ouchi Gari)", this clip shows the footwork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir0_ND2xIho "
Looks like Salsa...lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpj5AUgy37g

---

This "1, 2, circle" footwork in TCMA is called "butterfly footwork". It combines 2 "stealing steps" if you let your circle to go all the way behind your standing foot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir0_ND2xIho

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

This "1, 2, circle" footwork in TCMA is called "butterfly footwork". It combines 2 "stealing steps" if you let your circle to go all the way behind your standing foot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir0_ND2xIho

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Oh, I know... the footwork is very effective. I just thought of salsa dancing when I saw the video:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pateticorecords

Check out this KO with Harai Goshi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRNHFuNL0mc

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That was a beautiful "leg block" throw. He used his "horse back kick" to knock off both of his opponent's legs (instead of just trap the leg). That require some "back kick strength" and "single leg balance".

I guess the question I'd ask you would be what do you want to get out of your martial arts training. Your personal goals should guide your decisions about your instructor.

Let form follow function.

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Originally Posted by Lucas

So when you say that in the shaolin class you broke a good sweat and got a good work out, but there was no real application work, do you mean that the entire class was composed of form work, or was there some good solid conditioning and drills taking place? Have you asked the current students if there are application days where that is the focus? a lot of times you may not get the full spectrum in one day.

I am skeptical of a martial arts class where you do not break a sweat in a 3 hour class. Perhaps that was a special occasion day? I also am skeptical of a class that does not begin a new student of martial arts by building a foundation through introductory beginner basics. These are required building blocks that one needs to be able to progress at a consistant solid rate of understanding.

all in all, as a beginner, i don't believe in many cases you will get a full picture in just one class. if you have some experience and know what you are looking for this is definately possible, but if you have absolutely zero experience, you may want to visit two or three more times to get a more rounded idea of the actual exposure you would get there.

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I have absolutely zero/0 experience; so even terminology I have no idea what i'm talking about at this point. But in the perfect world of idiocracy, the Shaolin class was form/conditioning drills (back and forth doing slap kicks of some sorts, what to me seemed like punches, but the Sifu was looking at form) as well as a ton of stretches; then I was taken alone to be taught 8 stances. One of the students mentioned more application was taught in the advanced class, which you needed to take a test for after 6-8 months.

This 3 hour class was an intense class, as stated on the schedule. In respect, a lot of the older guys in the class were sweating. They took a 5 minute break every 30 minutes. They did the 8 stances as well as conditioning, but pretty slowly. A lot of stretching took place, in fact about an hour+ was stretches. I was pulled aside and shown the 8 stances (right side) by another student in conjunction with each other; however seemed a little rushed as he wanted to go practice with a weapon.

Well, honestly both seem like they could potentially meet your goals and needs, depending on what those are. If they do, and you're willing to share, do either or both of these schools have a web presence at all?

You'll get a wide variance of what people think/believe a program should be like in a school. But what it really comes down to is you and your life and what you want to get out of practice. At the end of the day all that matters is if you are happy, and you are working towards your long term goals.

Do NOT buy into any one elses hype or adgenda. This forum can be crazy and zany and trollolicious on a regular basis, but there really are some very well educated (martially lol) people here willing and able to give out great advice. Just have to roll with the punches (idiocy).

Anyhow, honestly, from what you have said regarding your goals, I personally think either of those schools have the potential to get you on your path. What I would do, and it may be more costly at first depending, for what ever school you decide on I would go for a month to month basis if possible, or what ever the shortest term contract is, if you absolutely have to do a contract. This way if you find out it's not what you are looking for you can leave and try something else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mjwny

I have absolutely zero/0 experience; so even terminology I have no idea what i'm talking about at this point. But in the perfect world of idiocracy, the Shaolin class was form/conditioning drills (back and forth doing slap kicks of some sorts, what to me seemed like punches, but the Sifu was looking at form) as well as a ton of stretches; then I was taken alone to be taught 8 stances. One of the students mentioned more application was taught in the advanced class, which you needed to take a test for after 6-8 months.

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This all sounds pretty standard for Shaolin...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucas

Do NOT buy into any one elses hype or adgenda. This forum can be crazy and zany and trollolicious on a regular basis, but there really are some very well educated (martially lol) people here willing and able to give out great advice. Just have to roll with the punches (idiocy).

---

Lucas is right, if you have a high tolerance for nonsense and shenanigans, you'll occasionally run across some real good thoughts and arguments from some of these guys...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

If we look at the "inner hook (Ouchi Gari)", this clip shows the footwork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir0_ND2xIho

This clip shows the set up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4IxLY9n_-o

This clip shows how to use it against noncompliant opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDdMbxsD0z8

What more information do you need? You first train your legs. After you get used to your legwork, you then train your hands. The hands move can be more complicated because in combat situation, your opponent won't allow you to grab him as shown in those clips.

After you have learned the "inner hook", you will find out that the "leg lift", "leg twist", and "front cut" can all be learned exactly the same way, with the same footwork, and the same set up. Now you will have 4 tools in your toolbox. This is why a teacher should help you to develop those tools that you need by starting from

- foootwork,
- set up,
- execution,

and not just fill you up with form after form.

This is the "traditional way to teach" a throwing art. Why the traditional striking art doesn't use this approach? I still don't understand even today. :confused:

---

Thanks, interesting stuff. Speaking from a student p.o.v., I started out attending a group that went straight to applications and partner training. I enjoyed it and learned a lot. I can totally see the value of that emphasis.

However over time I became more and more aware that I didn't possess the global whole-body coordination that I needed to make good progress. I really needed the basics.

That ended up meaning the whole sequence of stance training, stepping and turning training, and sequencing these with form training that coordinated upper and lower body, just to get to a point that I suppose more athletic people start out at. I'm still working basics in various ways.

Another more speculative idea is that forms to some extent are a tradition that go back to war dances. They involve a kind of emotional experience where you acquire a spirit of the style. Many may not believe in this, and maybe it's nonsense, I don't know, but that sort of thinking is a feature of tribal cultures, and possibly has surivived in CSM. It could be a kind of indoctrination. I'm not claiming this, just speculating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rett

over time I became more and more aware that I didn't possess the global whole-body coordination that I needed to make good progress. I really needed the basics.

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When you are at home by yourself, you can repeat your partner drill without partner. That will be your solo drill. If you link many solo drills as a meaningful sequence, you have just created yourself a form.

The advantage of this approach is your solo form is your partner drills. When you train the form that you have just created, you are killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

I wonder what kind of advise that mjwny may get if he goes to a forum that talks about:

- health,
- self-cultivation, and
- inner peace.

People in this forum may not have all reached to the "spiritual level" yet, but at least we all care about "combat".

---

Sometimes you need to come out of the trees to see the forest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

When you are at home by yourself, you can repeat your partner drill without partner. That will be your solo drill. If you link many solo drills as a meaningful sequence, you have just created yourself a form.

The advantage of this approach is your solo form is your partner drills. When you train the form that you have just created, you are killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

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This sounds like a very good approach, active and creative. Thanks for the idea.

I think all forms should be able to have a counterpart. Whether it's a two man or more. For combat forms anyways.