how is Po Pai used in fighting, chi sau, drills according you?
Please specify which of the three your speaking of.
Po Pai Video
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how is Po Pai used in fighting, chi sau, drills according you?
Please specify which of the three your speaking of.
Po Pai Video
Both ...at the same time, crazy talk, I know.
We can both, recover full striking distances and hit guys into them with shorter range palm strikes ...liver and jaw/eye, together...etc..with chum ging ( inch power ) it is not a pleasant experience.
Yes ..........Quote:
Po Pai is it a strike or pushing
ah, the Ving Tsun hadouken
http://images.wikia.com/streetfighte...yu-hadoken.jpg
Push and pull are two different energies. They should choose one and do it fully.
It may be fine if you are pulling slightly to change the opponent's facing before applying po-pai. But pulling them into yourself and then trying to push them back is not only useless, but it increases the resistance to your po-pai since their body weight is coming into you.
Po-pai is best used when you have already affected their facing and balance so there is less resistance and your po-pai will be more powerful. Look at the po-pai section of the dummy set. Each one is preceded by an action to change their facing and affect their balance first.
As for pulling actions, if you're going to pull them past you, do it. Why suddenly change energy and push back into them? At least turn and po-pai from the side, where they are weak. They are strong from the front, especially if that's the direction you're pulling them.
It can be a push, a strike, or an indication you can strike with with hand. In training we usually do po pai as a push both for the sake of our partners and because once I've entered past the second gate and can do po pai as a push it means I can do po pai as a strike. Being able to do po pai as a strike means I can hit you with both hands or just one if I choose.
You know I was watching a couple shuaijiao vids from my library the other day, and I noticed a hip throw counter where the guy's hands seem to resemble Po Pai. Daniel Weng and Peter Chema refers to it as "blowing".
The lower hand would be placed behind the opponent's leg around the knee to counter while the upper hand would then push him forward.
Just a thought...
Always a strike for me in application, with energy in two different directions (up and in & down and in) using "inch energy". Only used as a push in demos and with training partners to illustrate a point or possibly if the situation requires you to eject someone from your vicinity without actually hurting them. It can be turned into a push by driving through with the legs (for me it ceases to be po pai after the strike and is simply biu ma etc with a contact point) but unless you're being nice for some reason why would you not strike?
Anyone know the Characters for Po Pai? The name often helps you understand the technique better.
I practiced WC for a time but now I practice northern Kung Fu. WC in recent years has had a lot of evolution outside of China away from its sister styles but it wasn't always this way and sometimes it is useful to look at how similar techniques are applied in other Kung Fu styles.
The standard northern name for this technique is 'ShiZiDaZhangZui' -- Lion opens wide his mouth. Called like this because for one the posture resembles an open mouth. But also in the opening phase the hands move apart while striking, opening. There is also a closing phase.
Ian won't be able to see this because I'm on his ignore list but what an absolute load of rubbish that post is. Energy in two different directions? Only used as a push in demos? Ejecting somebody from the vicinity without hurting them? What nonsense has he been taught? Apparently it ceases to be po pai after the strike. Biu ma with a contact point?
For me that post sums up why wing chun is ruined.
Bruce Lee once said, "I strike and I don't push".
1 point contact is "strike". 2 (or 3) points contact in reverse directions is "throw". The term "push" is neither a "strike" nor a "throw". What's the purpose of "push"?
If you have to use "push", you will need to "pull" at the same time. If you use one hand to push your opponent's head and use other hand (or leg) to pull (or hook) your opponent's leg, he will be down, This way you can rotate your opponent to move his gravity center to be outside of his base. Just to push your opponent from point A to point B make no sense in combat. People said that you can push your opponent off cliff or into incoming traffic. That argument will never satisfy me.
IMO, "push" without the "leg moves (such as cut, hook, scoop, sweep, break, spring, ...)" is useless in combat.
Here is an example of "push" with hand and "pull" with leg at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38O7w...ature=youtu.be
Well YKW in application if you have things like stairs, furniture, ledges, uneven ground, pavement, or you can make your opponent fall over, then a push can be pretty effective at damaging or gaining a superior position. Heck even for something like disengaging from the clinch knowing how to push can be very beneficial.
I didn’t want to come up behind your other posts you made in the past, because I didn’t want it to look like I’m just favoring you based on your signature.
One day, I’d finished a class with a bunch of off duty ‘Hamtramck Police Officers’, and we all ended up at a friend’s coffee shops drinking cappuccino and Lattes. We were all drinking outside on the patio, when a detective; who I’ve never met before pulls up and started to ask me a bunch of questions, for ID and who do I know, where am I going when I leave; saying all of this while going through my pockets, the usual crap that most people like myself go through in the inter city of ‘Detroit’ while driving or walking through that part town (a small polish sub-division right in the middle of the city of ‘Detroit’) And all of this was happening right in front of my students.
They said nothing, because they just wanted to see how I would react, so I just compiled to his every command with no issues. But the lady who own the shop came out and asked him why was he doing all of this to me and he wouldn’t say anything to her, she took offence because she knew him for many years and because he wouldn’t speak to her even with all of the other cops watching. To make a long story short, she was a student for seven years –or- so and was the one who introduce them (cops) to my new school in that area.
She began to explain to him who I was and why all of his fellow comrades were there also, so they’d all came off the patio and stood around the unmarked vehicle as she demonstrated to him some of the things that I’ve taught her in the past. Well, most of the group was standing on the sidewalk while she was on the grass and the detective had half of his feet on the grass and the other half on the curb, and she began to show him a technique that I usually teach in my women’s self –defense classes and this is what happen.
When she took her finger tips and jammed them at/in his sternum (dotting), he reacted in shock, and within the same movement she pressed her palm down on his solar plexus, which slid his feet off the curb as her hand went upwards to his throat using ‘Deh-Jeong’ (panther fist), causing him to fall on her knuckles giving more impact to the strike, he’d gagged for almost two minutes. Everyone cheered as if they’ve seen something in a movie.
You can see the technique that I’m talking about at mark 1:00, stuff that I'd use to do that made judges lean forward in their sets, I use to do throat and cavity pressing technique in a way that the judges couldn’t see them to break the spirit of my opponents before landing heavier strikes. Here’s the clip, watch it at mark 1:00. But, he’s right the terrain can always be used for your advantage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOOxr...AD0BAD4D62A11A
In my own style of Wing Chun I call it double palm strike. I don't do the one palm up and one palm down like you see in the forms and such because it can lead to personal wrist injury if it goes bad on you. Also I have used it as a push as well. Pushing can have it's uses. Shoving someone violently into objects can cause injury quickly and easily. And If you do it right you can shove someone completely across a room into a counter top, table, chairs, just about anything that is there.
To keep friends close and enemies closer is always my belief. One time I had an auto accident in Taipei, Taiwan. When I argued with that guy, I found that he kept moving toward his car door. I stood between him and his car door until cops came. Later on cops found out that he had a hand gun in his glove compartment. If I pushed that guy away from me, he might have change to get his gun and came back at me. I like to pull more than push. The best place for my enemy is between my arms. :)
http://imageshack.us/a/img444/5471/octopus.jpg
Po pai? I prefer chicken veg.....
You stick with the village people. Im living it up in the city homes.
http://youtu.be/s6T_8eJEnxc good double palm strike /push...follow up.
A quick question for k gledhill. Watching this clip, and few of the others you posted from the WSLPBVT guys, when you are training Chi Sao and Lap Sau, do you try to step into the opponent's/training partner's stance?
I am pretty horrible at remembering the Chinese for these things, but in Leung Ting's WT we call it Yaat Mah Bo Faat (if that helps, but it probably won't as my spelling of it probably doesn't help you much :)).
In these clips (such as the one you linked above) the guys are in hitting range (they can make contact), but I don't see footwork that takes them deeper into the opponent's space.
Is that something you work on in other drills/training, or is it not something your line focusses on?
Ps. That Croatian is a big chap ;)
Okay, that's interesting. What is the tactical objective? (I mean in terms of the range between two people when the way to the target is free/clear)
We use a 'stepping into the opponent's stance' to aid the execution of the hit - the idea is to a) allow us to hit with as greater power (using the step and the adduction between the knees to add to the power from the arms), b) to displace the opponent (using the step to affect his balance/stance structure).
Of course, it is impossible to step into the guys stance at every strike, but ultimately we should aim for this sooner or later :) (or that should be, sooner rather than later :D)
We try to cut into opponents actions, not into the "pocket" . We step and pivot and combine to develop force to strike but we use the opponents actions to work off.
One major reason rotating strikers give guys trouble is simply that they go into the "pocket" rather than ...alternate ways.
Imagine attacking a man armed with 2 knives always, would you go into his center ?
A boxer , his center ?
Thanks! I think I understand what you are saying about cutting into actions and I think we are using something like this when we can't step into a stance. So maybe not too different - and not too similar either ;)
Tricky question. Probably I wouldn't, unless I somehow had complete control of both of his arms (unlikely if he has knives). But this scenario is kinda ruined by the presence of those knives.
If you hold out your arm in a fist and I walk onto it, I won't really hurt myself (other than my pride :o), but if you hold out a knife (or two knives) and I walk onto one of them... ouch. It takes very little 'effort' to slice or stab someone, as their movements can often do it for you. So no, against knives the whole game kinda changes.
To give a more extreme example, the only footwork that might work against someone with a projective taser gun is... running... in a zig-zag fashion... while ducking... and praying. :D) If you pull one of those on me, I am not thinking about stepping into your stance. :eek:
Another tricky question! In a ring, gloved up, playing by boxing rules? No, I wouldn't.
In a self defense situation? Well, I would really not want to be playing with a boxer at the boxing range for say, a straight right. So I would be trying to close the distance. Of course, stepping into someone's stance can be done from the front, the side (even the back, I guess) all with the aim of taking/controlling the center.
So yes, in this case I would be trying this. 'Don't box the boxer' as the saying goes.
What I was asking, really, about the lap sau and chi sau drills I saw in your video clips, is why you keep the striking distance but don't close it further when you have control of the center? It looked, to me, a bit like the same range was always kept.
But if that is just the nature of the way you do those drills, then that is cool - it is the way you do it. I was just curious.
We dont treat chi-sao as a battle ground, so if you see a pause at a certain distance unlike your own ideas, it may be simply be to 'cut off' and start over.
Laap sao drills are to condition elbows, and the various actions and reactions possible within a modular isolation of this exchange sequence one may face at speeds while fighting. Added later to gor sao they can involve anything, stepping in or angling out, etc...random use, relying on thoughtless responses.
Okay, thanks for explaining.
Our lap sau in WT is a little different, but we share some of the same teaching progression, I think.
Lap sau with isolated sequences [to work various responses and also to understand concepts] leading on to gor sau [to play those responses in a random way as needed and to try and get the concepts out in a more live setting].
Laap sao has many variations within the 'drill' of attack and counters with angles etc....many just seem to grab n hit then swap roles and wait to be grabbed and hit...There is a lot of repetition to condition the punching elbows angles, and try to stay relaxed at high speeds, not freezing, etc...
Indeed. :)
I was taught that the drill is to train the punching elbow, the reaction of bong to pressure (plus using bong to prevent the line of attack from opening up), to check we have forward pressure, to check our wu sau, etc, etc. Lots happening just within the basic sequence.
But we can work pretty much any exchange into the lap sau drill, so often we use it as a platform to start things from. I like it as it is somewhere in between training from no contact (no bridge) and training with an established bridge with both hands (poon sau). And in lap sau it is easy to flow between various aspects of all of these bridging options.
But sorry all, I have derailed the talk of Po Pai ;)
If your opponent is against the wall trying to move forward...Po Pai Push is very useful!
i was always taught it was for range or to push the guy into something dangerous, ie wsl pushing the guy off the roof.