Application Observation

I've recently been doing a lot of no gi judo. Something that I've discovered is that in that environment, the traditional mantis techniques have time to develop. I think that when you ad the element of a scrum, a real knock down drag down in close fight, the old techniques are more applicable.

I've found the feel to be different than when I dabbled in san shou in the 90's because I find that it's hard to apply technique in a mostly striking environment. I think when you ad that element of grappling, you get that "bridge" and time that's needed to execute a lot of the techniques and strategies.

Anybody else have similar experiences?

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Originally Posted by MightyB

I've recently been doing a lot of no gi judo. Something that I've discovered is that in that environment, the traditional mantis techniques have time to develop. I think that when you ad the element of a scrum, a real knock down drag down in close fight, the old techniques are more applicable.

I've found the feel to be different than when I dabbled in san shou in the 90's because I find that it's hard to apply technique in a mostly striking environment. I think when you ad that element of grappling, you get that "bridge" and time that's needed to execute a lot of the techniques and strategies.

Anybody else have similar experiences?

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Everything that is done from a standing position can be done in the air or on the ground. The position is the same in all three tiers, only implemented at a different tier level. This sounds like a great validation of your technique. This is a wonderful discovery and I wish you all the best with this type of training.
SKM

no gi judo?

I am not familiar with this sport. But yes, it would follow that joint locking would be handy in such an instance where there is no textile to grab and lurch.

keep your fingernails and hair short! (for anything no gi)

We mainly do stand up. We're throwers. So I'm using applications and set ups in close quarters stand up. When you ad grappling, you get a lot of wrist ties, body locks, and over under hooks - so you're constantly "bridging". Ad strikes and then you get a whole new dynamic, but I'm thinking techs and traps were primarily for knock down drag out fighting, and you can't get the same dynamic from striking only - it's just too fast, too "pattycake" to do bridges, locks, and traps.

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

no gi judo?

I am not familiar with this sport. But yes, it would follow that joint locking would be handy in such an instance where there is no textile to grab and lurch.

keep your fingernails and hair short! (for anything no gi)

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It's nothing official, I just said "hey, lets do our judo without the gi-s" and the guys loved it. Then we freed up for more newaza/illegal techniques, but we still stop on a solid ippon throw.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

I've recently been doing a lot of no gi judo. Something that I've discovered is that in that environment, the traditional mantis techniques have time to develop. I think that when you ad the element of a scrum, a real knock down drag down in close fight, the old techniques are more applicable.

I've found the feel to be different than when I dabbled in san shou in the 90's because I find that it's hard to apply technique in a mostly striking environment. I think when you ad that element of grappling, you get that "bridge" and time that's needed to execute a lot of the techniques and strategies.

Anybody else have similar experiences?

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Good that you are finding out the right context for making use of your techniques.

A lot of people don't actively explore, and never figure it out.

Then they go around saying TCMA doesn't work.

Even some very advanced people on this board miss out on some detail aspects which make a big difference in useability.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

I've recently been doing a lot of no gi judo. Something that I've discovered is that in that environment, the traditional mantis techniques have time to develop. ... I find that it's hard to apply technique in a mostly striking environment.

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The mantis hook can be used as the "arm guiding".

You can use a very strong punch to set up an effortless throw. A strong punch will force your opponent to lean his body backward. That will give you some opportunity. Here is one example.

- Both you and your opponent have right side forward.
- You deliever a right groin kick.
- When you land your right foot, you use left hand to parry your opponent's leading right wrist, and right "punch at his face as fast/hard as you can".
- When he leans his bady back (this is what you want), and uses his left hand to parry your right punch, you pull your punch back (his left block will just block the thin air).
- When his right arm spin with your left parry arm, you slide your left arm along with his right arm.
- You then move your right hand above his left parring arm and reach to his throat.
- Your left arm wrap around his right upper arm.
- Your right leg make a curve and move behind his right leading leg, and
- use "front cut (Osoto Gari)" to take him down.

Since in SC or Judo game the punch is not allowed, to apply "front cut (Osoto Gari)" is much harder. Also to catch your opponent's kicking leg (your opponent gives that to you) is much easier than to shoot in and grab your opponent's leading leg (you have to get it).

Nice sequence.

Forearm/elbow to face/neck is good too, instead of just hand.

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Originally Posted by -N-

Nice sequence.

Forearm/elbow to face/neck is good too, instead of just hand.

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Agree! Head lock is good at that moment too.

http://imageshack.us/a/img215/7958/canebundle.jpg

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Originally Posted by MightyB

I think when you ad that element of grappling, you get that "bridge" and time that's needed to execute a lot of the techniques and strategies.

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Funny how things start to make sense when you do a lot of sparring or grappling...

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Originally Posted by MightyB

no gi judo.

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The major difference between gi and no-gi is the "pulling". In no-gi, you have to find different way to do your pulling. For example, instead of pulling with the upper collar grip, you pull behind your opponent's neck instead. It's so funny that the MT "double neck tie" in SC is called "mantis arms".

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

Agree! Head lock is good at that moment too.

http://imageshack.us/a/img215/7958/canebundle.jpg

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

- When he leans his bady back (this is what you want), and uses his left hand to parry your right punch, you pull your punch back (his left block will just block the thin air).

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Another way is don't pull back. Keep going in but yield and slip so the parry doesn't control your force. I like this method of continuous attacking pressure.

Then snap the forearm into the face. You can grab the collar while doing this if you like. Turn it into a paper cutter choke if you take him down and follow. Or just smash his head into the ground.

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Originally Posted by -N-

Another way is don't pull back. Keep going in but yield and slip so the parry doesn't control your force.

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If your opponent blocks your right forearm, you can borrow your opponent's left hand parrying force, bend at your right elbow joint and smash your right elbow over his left blocking arm and onto his face. You can also use mantis Gua (comb hair), knock away his left blocking arm (force against force), and still move in.

Since this entering strategy combo is the ACSCA 1st degree black belt testing requirement, most students have spend a great deal amount of time in this combo with many different modifications.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

If your opponent blocks your right forearm, you can borrow your opponent's left hand parrying force, bend at your right elbow joint and smash your right elbow over his left blocking arm and onto his face.

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Yep. That would my preference. Then you are close enough for kao da with torso and a hard takedown.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

The mantis hook can be used as the "arm guiding.

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For us, we frequently use forearm contact and guiding to serve the same purpose as mantis hook. Especially when we have gloves. And also when we want to close in tight.

This is using the theory but favoring our preference for working a closer range than shown literally in the classical methods.

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Originally Posted by -N-

For us, we frequently use forearm contact and guiding to serve the same purpose as mantis hook. Especially when we have gloves. And also when we want to close in tight.

This is using the theory but favoring our preference for working a closer range than shown literally in the classical methods.

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Mantis has kao da, but many don't seem to integrate that.

So you see staying on the outside and patty cake like MightyB describes.

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

no gi judo?

I am not familiar with this sport. But yes, it would follow that joint locking would be handy in such an instance where there is no textile to grab and lurch.

keep your fingernails and hair short! (for anything no gi)

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It's called wrestling in the rest of the free world.

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Originally Posted by MasterKiller

It's called wrestling in the rest of the free world.

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ROTFL - too true! But we wear cooler pants!

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Originally Posted by MasterKiller

It's called wrestling in the rest of the free world.

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Oh really. So then Judo is wrestling is it? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

Oh really. So then Judo is wrestling is it? :rolleyes:

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yep its jacket wrestling like sumo why the roll eyes?

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Originally Posted by Frost

yep its jacket wrestling like sumo why the roll eyes?

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Oh it's "jacket wrestling" now is it? lol

wtf guys.

"no gi judo" = something that Mighty B made up and has stated as much here in this thread.

"Jacket wrestling"....crikey... :rolleyes: The things people say for whatever reasons.

how do you think the traditional British Jacket wrestlers are gonna think about getting told that what they do is Judo and vice versa?

The obstinate attitude is hilarious by the way.

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

Oh really. So then Judo is wrestling is it? :rolleyes:

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Judo is Judo.

BJJ is BJJ.

Sambo is Sambo.

SC is SC.

But grappling of any form without a Gi is called wrestling.

Got it?

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Originally Posted by MasterKiller

Judo is Judo.

BJJ is BJJ.

Sambo is Sambo.

SC is SC.

But grappling of any form without a Gi is called wrestling.

Got it?

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lol. Oh yes, I had it when you were still a twinkle in your dads eyes. But hey, way to be all fronting. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

lol. Oh yes, I had it when you were still a twinkle in your dads eyes. But hey, way to be all fronting. :rolleyes:

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and they still let you be a moderator? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

Oh it's "jacket wrestling" now is it? lol

wtf guys.

"no gi judo" = something that Mighty B made up and has stated as much here in this thread.

"Jacket wrestling"....crikey... :rolleyes: The things people say for whatever reasons.

how do you think the traditional British Jacket wrestlers are gonna think about getting told that what they do is Judo and vice versa?

The obstinate attitude is hilarious by the way.

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its all grappling, weel to be clearer its all wrestling with or without jackets, Cornish jacket wrestling, sambo what ever

And your attitude is equally as funny, for someone who only has a single training partner and has never done anything remotely noteworthy you don’t half try to act impotent, i mean important
:)

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Originally Posted by Frost

its all grappling, weel to be clearer its all wrestling with or without jackets, Cornish jacket wrestling, sambo what ever

And your attitude is equally as funny, for someone who only has a single training partner and has never done anything remotely noteworthy you don’t half try to act impotent, i mean important
:)

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Uh, you don't know me so best keep your commentary to yourself.

Your attitude is ignorant and pissy towards me. Do you expect everyone to just lie down and let you run roughshod over them?

If it's "all " grappling then you are engaging in mere semantics. The troll call if you will.

Either define it or leave it. My comment was harmless and you couldn't resist bagging on it when you saw the chance.

Maybe you could grow up a little in your attitude and just leave it alone when others are engaging in conversation instead of butting in and saying non contextual things about an individual and then bagging on them and getting all encouraged when someone else joins in. That is juvenile oh dear forum member and regardless what you think of me, it's not necessary.

I don't take issue to responses, but out of the blue starting to be a maliciousness wanker for the sake of it? Yeah, that ain't gonna work out for anyone.
that is all.

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

Uh, you don't know me so best keep your commentary to yourself.

Your attitude is ignorant and pissy towards me. Do you expect everyone to just lie down and let you run roughshod over them?

If it's "all " grappling then you are engaging in mere semantics. The troll call if you will.

Either define it or leave it. My comment was harmless and you couldn't resist bagging on it when you saw the chance.

Maybe you could grow up a little in your attitude and just leave it alone when others are engaging in conversation instead of butting in and saying non contextual things about an individual and then bagging on them and getting all encouraged when someone else joins in. That is juvenile oh dear forum member and regardless what you think of me, it's not necessary.

I don't take issue to responses, but out of the blue starting to be a maliciousness wanker for the sake of it? Yeah, that ain't gonna work out for anyone.
that is all.

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You're a tool. I bet Gene regrets his decision to make you moderator. Especially considering how often you either post stupid **** in every thread in an attempt to sound profound, or how you clearly think you are much smarter than you are.

Your posts get old and I cringe every time I see your name in a thread. I typically skip over your useless posts, but am occasionally forced to read bits and pieces of crap you peddle while scrolling. Do us all a favor and keep your pathetic, uneducated rantin posts to yourself.

Bring on the ban hammer. It needed to be said.

as much as I love to rag on old Jamieson, considering current events, let's just leave this thread for now guys, seriously....