A different view on the muscles / strength topics

I heard an interesting point the other day. It wasn't the typical "don't do strength training because it'll slow you down"... rather, it made sense.

It was more of an awareness comment which stated: "being strong can hinder your true potential as a martial artist because you may develop an over-reliance on strength rather than technique".

I thought it was a valid critique. Maybe this is where the thought of strength training can slow you down came from.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

I heard an interesting point the other day. It wasn't the typical "don't do strength training because it'll slow you down"... rather, it made sense.

It was more of an awareness comment which stated: "being strong can hinder your true potential as a martial artist because you may develop an over-reliance on strength rather than technique".

I thought it was a valid critique. Maybe this is where the thought of strength training can slow you down came from.

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Yes, that is the ONLY valid critique of over-emphasizing ST.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

I heard an interesting point the other day. It wasn't the typical "don't do strength training because it'll slow you down"... rather, it made sense.

It was more of an awareness comment which stated: "being strong can hinder your true potential as a martial artist because you may develop an over-reliance on strength rather than technique".

I thought it was a valid critique. Maybe this is where the thought of strength training can slow you down came from.

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That's pretty much my view on it.

But it goes both ways, depending on the person.

I've told some students to stop doing strength training because although they had strength, they didnt develop the coordination of that strength to be able to apply it quickly or effectively. Also, they didn't reach their full strength potential in usage, because they didn't know how to relax and coordinate/sequence their muscles. Which relates to the thread I started on elastic power storage, and also your post on use of waist in Mantis.

Other students I've told to do strength training because clearly they were to weak to make use of their techniques. Others were too weak to be able to train their techniques.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

I heard an interesting point the other day. It wasn't the typical "don't do strength training because it'll slow you down"... rather, it made sense.

It was more of an awareness comment which stated: "being strong can hinder your true potential as a martial artist because you may develop an over-reliance on strength rather than technique".

I thought it was a valid critique. Maybe this is where the thought of strength training can slow you down came from.

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http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...estside_wisdom

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Training MMA Fighters

We do lots of sled pull work with UFC fighter Matt Brown – extra weight on the shoulders, up to a half-mile, sometimes ****her. This builds incredible strength in the glutes and hips, which is where punching power originates. It also builds cardiovascular and muscular endurance at the same time.

The only barbell lifts he does are basically Zercher squats or sumo deadlifts. Sometimes we'll do straddle-leg good mornings (one leg out in front) which simulates single and double-leg takedowns.

I have Matt carry a barrel – wrestlers have to get their hips to the opponent, and the only way to carry a 55 gallon barrel is to jam the hips up into it.

Matt will also carry a 100-pound med ball in a wrestler's clinch for interval training. So he'll go 100 feet down, 100 feet back, perform a series of jumps, and then repeat.

But one of the best exercises is the belt squat. Matt uses 365 pounds strapped around his waist and he'll walk with it on for five minute rounds – forward, backward, and to the side.

This builds lateral power and has made him incredibly strong. In his last fight he broke his opponent's nose, jaw, and cheekbone – and we don't do anything for arms other than one-arm dumbbell pressing.

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still with the westside love hey :) :)

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Originally Posted by bawang

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...estside_wisdom

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This is a good idea:

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But one of the best exercises is the belt squat. Matt uses 365 pounds strapped around his waist and he'll walk with it on for five minute rounds – forward, backward, and to the side.

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I'm never the biggest guy in the gym, so I always choose bigger guys to throw down with. In wrestling it was such an asset. Getting launched around the mat will teach you a lot!

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Originally Posted by MightyB

"being strong can hinder your true potential as a martial artist because you may develop an over-reliance on strength rather than technique".

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I have 3 different experience on this.

- One of my senior SC brothers was my high school PE teacher. His arm muscle was so big that when he stood straight, his hands won't be able to touch his own legs. In wrestling, almost every my SC brothers could throw him.

- One of my guys was very strong. He always used his muscle instead of technique. In 6 years, he didn't develop even a single dependable technique.

- When I was in good shape, in jacket wrestling, nobody could break my jacket grips when I got hole on my opponent. My grips could take my opponent's offense skill away. When my opponent could not attack me, I could attack him whenever I wanted to. In a period of time, I used that strategy (force against force) so much my teacher said that I could develop some bad habit from it. He didn't like my strategy until he saw my strategy worked over and over infront of his eyes. Later on when someone said that somebody was a good MArtist, he would say, "Just let John to get hold on him and see if he can even move." He finally approved my method. Today if I look back, that strategy may work well in jacket wrestling. It may not work as well in no-jacket wrestling. If my opponent put grease on his body, there is no way that I can hold on him tight. It also won't work in Sanda/Sanshou environment. If I didn't depend on that strategy (force against force), I could force myself to develop more techniques instead back then. Strength can make people lazy in wrestling field and that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

If I didn't depend on that strategy (force against force), I could force myself to develop more techniques instead back then. Strength can make people lazy in wrestling field and that's for sure.

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This can happen from over-relying on any method, not just strength.

I stopped using a jumping au-lau-choi attack when chasing down an opponent because it would always work. I wanted to force myself to use other skills.

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Originally Posted by -N-

This can happen from over-relying on any method, not just strength.

I stopped using a jumping au-lau-choi attack when chasing down an opponent because it would always work. I wanted to force myself to use other skills.

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This is why I no longer train jacket wrestling. If I train Sanda, I would have gloves on and I won't be able to grab. I do apply my grip strength on wrists control in no-jacket wrestling. It works pretty good too. My effort is not wasted after all.

Strength, like a football player, or a basketball player? A gymnast? All are built to the hilt, but not the same way.

A couple of opinions on bulk strength for my needs.

I'm not small, used to be bigger. As you get older, it all turns to mush in 2 weeks if you let it. The bulk you built becomes a liability and you have to find ways to keep skill (strength is part) and dump the extra bulk. Lean out. Phase of life thing. Take my advice, try to avoid the 'fat' stage if you can. Its like smoking, a real effort to correct, some folks just can't.

If you strike weak points well, you should have way power than you need if you're at an advanced level. Trading it off for speed is effective. The elbow becomes your friend...:D

High rep, low weight works best for me.

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Originally Posted by Yum Cha

High rep, low weight works best for me.

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I have always believed in strength. Every tournaments that I had competed, I knew that I might be the strongest guy in the whole competation hall. Until oneday I asked my senior SC brother, the one that I respect the most, David C. K. Lin, "How much time do you spend on weight training?" He said, "Not much."

David had developed much more techniques than I do. When he wrestled with his opponent, he could just make himself a bit better than his opponent so his opponent won't feel embarrassed. He told me this way, his opponent would never be able to figure out his true ability. He can easily beat his opponent in next tournament if they meet again. He has developed such a wide range of techniques that he has freedown to just pick and choose. When I sweat my ass off working on my weight, by using the same amount time, David takes easy and develop new skill. I truly don't know which approach is better if you ask me today.

We all know that "train smart, not train hard." Is "weight training" just train hard? Can we use the weight training time to develop new combat skill and get better result. I will never know that in this life time of mine. If I'll live my life all over again, I'll definitely want to try David C. K. Lin's approach by spending more time in combat skill development than strength development.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

We all know that "train smart, not train hard." Is "weight training" just train hard? Can we use the weight training time to develop new combat skill and get better result.

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I have the students work on skill first.

Most aren't able to use their existing strength effectively.

When they can do that, then we talk about increasing strength.

If they just want strength, then they don't need to learn from me. They can get strong on their own.

Reminds me of guys that build hotrods. Some put a huge motor in the car, but they don't do the suspension work to be able to make use of the power. So all the horsepower just goes up in tire smoke.

There is nothing wrong with relying on strength if you are strong, just as there is nothing wrong with relying on technique if you are less strong.

But a balanced person would seek to develop both.

One advantage that you will have from the strength training is it may be your "only friend" left through your old age. When you get old, even if you may try to maintain your ability as much you can, you will still lose your

- speed (you can't move as fast),
- flexibility (you can't kick as high),
- spring (you can't jump as high),
- balance (you can't stay on single leg too long),
- endurance (you can't spar/wrestle 15 rounds),

but you can still lift as much weight as when you were young. You will always have your strength until the day that you die. It's the only ability that if you do a good "maintance" job, you will be able to keep it.

Of course if you stop your strength training at your age 70, you may lose it when you reach to your 80. This is why we can't afford to stop our training no matter we like it or not.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

One advantage that you will have from the strength training is it may be your only friend left through your old age. When you get old, even if you may try to maintain your ability as much you can, you will lose your

- speed (you can't move as fast),
- flexibility (you can't kick as high),
- spring (you can't jump as high),
- balance (you can't stay on single leg too long),
- endurance (you can't spar/wrestle 15 rounds),

but you can still lift as much weight as when you were young. You will always have your strength until the day that you die (if you can do a good "maintance" job).

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My Sigung is 70.

He is faster than any of us.
He can kick better than us.
He can jump very high, having trained in the art of lightness.
His balance is insanely good.
And he has the endurance to spar and run around and teach for hours.

I look up to him as the model of what I want to be when I reach an "old" age.

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Originally Posted by Neeros

My Sigung is 70.

He is faster than any of us.
He can kick better than us.
He can jump very high, having trained in the art of lightness.
His balance is insanely good.
And he has the endurance to spar and run around and teach for hours.

I look up to him as the model of what I want to be when I reach an "old" age.

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I'm sure your Sigung could do everything much better when he was 30 or 40 years old. You can't compare between different persons. You can only compare the same person between different time period.

When I look at my Sigung's old clip. I can clearly see that when he was in his 70, his tornado kick can no longer be able to reach maximum height. The old age is the best killer for "jumping".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqrp0...ature=youtu.be

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

One advantage that you will have from the strength training is it may be your "only friend" left through your old age. When you get old, even if you may try to maintain your ability as much you can, you will still lose your

- speed (you can't move as fast),
- flexibility (you can't kick as high),
- spring (you can't jump as high),
- balance (you can't stay on single leg too long),
- endurance (you can't spar/wrestle 15 rounds),

but you can still lift as much weight as when you were young. You will always have your strength until the day that you die. It's the only ability that if you do a good "maintance" job, you will be able to keep it.

Of course if you stop your strength training at your age 70, you may lose it when you reach to your 80. This is why we can't afford to stop our training no matter we like it or not.

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This is so true. There's a lot of research on the benefits of weight training through old age.... it's probably the best thing you can do if you want to have a good life in old age. Just as long as you're smart about it and don't do something stupid and blow out a knee or damage your back when you're young.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

This is so true. There's a lot of research on the benefits of weight training through old age.... it's probably the best thing you can do if you want to have a good life in old age. Just as long as you're smart about it and don't do something stupid and blow out a knee or damage your back when you're young.

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What kind of weight training? And to what end in particular?

I've noticed one thing, skill makes you look faster because you are in better position and get the jump.

Pak mei is different though, because it is an external art that becomes more internal over time, and us old blokes have material to work with.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

One advantage that you will have from the strength training is it may be your "only friend" left through your old age. When you get old, even if you may try to maintain your ability as much you can, you will still lose your

- speed (you can't move as fast),
- flexibility (you can't kick as high),
- spring (you can't jump as high),
- balance (you can't stay on single leg too long),
- endurance (you can't spar/wrestle 15 rounds),

but you can still lift as much weight as when you were young. You will always have your strength until the day that you die. It's the only ability that if you do a good "maintance" job, you will be able to keep it.

Of course if you stop your strength training at your age 70, you may lose it when you reach to your 80. This is why we can't afford to stop our training no matter we like it or not.

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You are completely wrong about this. Strength, like all other physical attributes, decreases with age.

Agreed. Speed and balance can increase though. Only decreases if you let it. :D Think Slow .

http://www.aarp.org/health/longevity..._training.html

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Staying independent is a great incentive for maintaining strength as you age. Carrying groceries, opening jars, hauling mulch—it's easy to take routine tasks for granted when you can do them easily. Keeping your muscles and bones strong as you age improves your chances of continuing these tasks on your own and reduces your risk of falling.

Having more muscle increases your metabolism, making it easier to maintain a healthy weight. Since muscle is an active tissue, it uses up more calories compared to fat.

After age 20, most of us lose about a half pound of muscle a year. By the time we're 65, we will have lost 25 percent of our peak strength.

Don't Blame Aging
But you're not destined to grow softer and weaker just because you're getting older. Experts say most muscle loss comes from not using your muscles enough as you age, rather than aging itself. Using your muscles regularly will help them stay strong and firm, regardless of age, an important reason for older adults to strength train.

Studies have shown that men in their 60s and 70s who strength train regularly have muscles that look and perform as well as inactive men in their 20s and 30s.

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Studies have shown that men in their 60s and 70s who strength train regularly have muscles that look and perform as well as inactive men in their 20s and 30s.

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Originally Posted by LaRoux

Studies have shown that men in their 60s and 70s who strength train regularly have muscles that look and perform as well as inactive men in their 20s and 30s.

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yep its not rocket science really, those that train when they are older will be stronger than those that dont, they will also in certain cases be better than those a lot younger who dont train

And as for the comment that strength does not decrease as you get older made by YKW, that simply is so wrong its not funny, there is a reason all strength sports have separate senior and masters divisions

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Originally Posted by Frost

And as for the comment that strength does not decrease as you get older made by YKW, that simply is so wrong its not funny, there is a reason all strength sports have separate senior and masters divisions

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steroids is hell of a drug

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Originally Posted by bawang

steroids is hell of a drug

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mmm sorry WTF are you o about this time :)

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Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

Yes, that is the ONLY valid critique of over-emphasizing ST.

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This.

If both guys have equal skill, the stronger guy will win.

If both guys have equal strength, the better skilled guy will win.

When I first started training grappling I was stronger than most people in the class. I didn't know wtf I was doing, but sometimes I could literally just hold them and keep them from moving or submitting me.

When I rolled with other noobs who also only knew the same 2 techniques as me but weren't as strong as me, I would just use my strength to get them to move. I didn't have to use good technique.

With people who were better than me but not as strong as me, sometimes I could resist them with strength alone but eventually I'd get tired and they would submit me.

With people who were better than me and stronger than me, they would easily beat me.

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Originally Posted by -N-

This can happen from over-relying on any method, not just strength.

I stopped using a jumping au-lau-choi attack when chasing down an opponent because it would always work. I wanted to force myself to use other skills.

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What is that technique? I Googled it but didn't see anything.

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Originally Posted by IronFist

What is that technique? I Googled it but didn't see anything.

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Same as the first two in this video, but with a running in and jumping footwork and punch down into the face from above.

http://youtu.be/Y8nmSZxIxd0

A little bit like a Muay Thai superman punch, but with a Praying Mantis setup.

I would start from right lead, throw a left jump roundhouse kick, left grab right cross, run/jump 1-2-3 (au-lau-choi or "superman punch").

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Originally Posted by -N-

(au-lau-choi or "superman punch").

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Are you talking about the praying mantis trade mark move 钩搂采手(Gou Lou Cai Shou)? I'm not very good in Cantonese.

I like superman punch too. To utilize "momentum" is not beginner level skill. Many TCMA systems don't train it at all.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

Are you talking about the praying mantis trade mark move 钩搂采手(Gou Lou Cai Shou)? I'm not very good in Cantonese.

I like superman punch too. Many TCMA systems don't train it at all.

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Yes, same!

Many people train gou lou cai with stationary footwork, or with just a step.

I like to make people train that one with the run/jump footwork.

Trade mark technique with the best closing in footwork.

But like I said, it worked so well that I made myself stop using it because I didn't want to over rely on it.

I think the Lou principle that you use it to pull yourself into your opponent is quite unique. I try to suggest WC guys to integrate Lou into their system. So far nobody has ever shown any interest in it.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

To utilize "momentum" is not beginner level skill. Many TCMA systems don't train it at all.

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We always have to yell at the students because they kill their momentum.

Momentum detail for previous combo:

- right lead
- jump turn into left roundhouse kick
- as the left foot lands forward and down, use that momentum to extend the left grab
- recoil the left grab through the waist to power the right cross
- use the momentum of the right cross to start the right leg forward
- snap the right foot down with the right gou
- recoil the gou through the waist while jumping of the right leg and raising the left leg up and forward
- left leg brings down the left lou
- left lou brings the right cai diving down from the jump

Sometimes I use up the rest of the momentum after the dive punch by turning it into a grab and bringing the right foot forward into a low roundhouse sweep kick to the leg.

By then everything is settled back down.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

I think the Lou principle that you use it to pull yourself into your opponent is quite unique. I try to suggest WC guys to integrate Lou into their system. So far nobody has ever shown any interest in it.

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Funny. That is one of the first methods I make beginners do as part of understanding Praying Mantis idea of "control and hit".

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Originally Posted by -N-

low roundhouse sweep kick to the leg.

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It may be interest to compare the "low roundhouse kick" and "foot sweep". People use low round house kick to hurt his opponent's leg. I like to use foot sweep to knock my opponent's leading foot off the ground. Whether I can sweep my opponent down or not is not important, I just want to put him in defense mode so his leg won't give me any trouble when I enter.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

It may be interest to compare the "low roundhouse kick" and "foot sweep". People use low round house kick to hurt his opponent's leg. I like to use foot sweep to knock my opponent's leading foot off the ground. Whether I can sweep my opponent down or not is not important, I just want to put him in defense mode so his leg won't give me any trouble when I move in.

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I use it to spin him so I can take his back.

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Originally Posted by -N-

I use it to spin him so I can take his back.

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A powerful foot sweep can spin your opponent's body. If your opponent borrows your force and spin, that will be even better.

One contact point foot sweep may not be able to take your opponent down. At least you can use his leading leg to jam his back leg, a little cross push on his leading elbow, you are in his side door. If you are

- taller than your opponent, your other arm will be on his neck.
- shorter than your opponent, your other arm will be on his waist.

You can then enter his back door.

I use the foot sweep in pretty much the same way. If they fall it is a bonus, but that is not the goal of the technique.

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Originally Posted by Golden Arms

I use the foot sweep in pretty much the same way. If they fall it is a bonus, but that is not the goal of the technique.

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Whenever your opponentr tries to punch you, he will put weight on his leading leg. If you sweep his leading leg at that moment, even if you may not be able to sweep him down, you will at least interrupt his attack. If you can sweep his leading foot to be off the ground, his punch won't be effective. When your opponent pays attention on his legs, it will give you a chance to punch on his face. It's a good skill to have.

Why don't we see "foot sweep" used in UFC?