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Can anyone tell me the exact definition of Shaolin Bei Yuan 少林寺北院?
Is this an area inside the temple, a division of the monks in the temple or does it refer to a minor offshoot temple associated with Shaolin?
This would be in the Ming dynasty if that helps.
The pinyin for characters you supplied would be. Shaolin Si Bei Yuan
少林寺 refers to Shaolin Temple (Shaolin Si); 北院 northern school (most likely refers to northern school of Chan but could be referring to northern Shaolin martial arts).
r.
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www.shaolinwushu.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea Serpent
Shaolin ChanSi, Shaolin Zen Temple was split into 4 abbeys. NanYuan, XiYuan, DongYuan, BeiYuan.
That is Southern abbey, western abbey, eastern abbey, northern abbey. (also sometimes referred to as courtyards).
These are not separate temples but all within the Shaolin area.
Shaolin used to own a large area of land all around YuZhai Mountain (the jade fortress, the old name for Shaoshi mountain).
They had different areas. The NanYuan and XiYuan are the ones famous for their martial arts. Even today traditional schools are polarised into these two sects, the Nanyuan pai and the Xiyuan pai. Modern schools and the temple itself no longer make the distinction and practice whatever they have left.
As to the Eastern and Northern abbeys (to which you refer), I confess I do not know their pursuit. I assumed their practice was Meditation and Scholarship. If it was Martial Arts then I do not think any survive.
This is conjecture; The idea I get is that the area being large had many outbuildings, Northern abbey would be one of them, perhaps with its own facilities, but still within walking distance of the main temple. I would imagine it housed a division of monks with a particular function different to those of the other abbeys.
If I may ask what reference is there to it?
I was reading about a school of martial arts that originated there during the Ming dynasty.
It's kind of a small obscure style found only in a couple places (mainly Cangzhou).
I'll post some video, taken during the national survey in the 80's, in a couple days.
The character 'yuan' 院 could refer to 'school' or 'public institution' but 北宗 could more likely be used to refer to Chan sects, North (Buddhism); Taoist sects, North (Taoism) 佛教禪宗派別 北宗 (佛教) 道教派別，北宗 (道教).
I'm not sure what you mean by 'northern abbey' etc. 僧院 i.e 'abbey is just another word of the Buddhist monastery and within Buddhist monasteries the buildings are usually referred to as 堂. I understand that outside the Shaolin temple to the northwest there are only two monasteries, the Ancestor's Monastery and the Second Ancestor's Monastery, possibly you can explain further about what you are referring to by 'abbeys'.
cheers,
r.
.....................
www.shaolinwushu.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenDaHai
Yeah. The Nanyuan, for example, was a place called 永化堂 Yonghuatang. These are its "ruins"...Quote:
Originally Posted by r.(shaolin)
Attachment 8142
Sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by r.(shaolin)
NanYuan, XiYuan, BeiYuan and DongYuan are often referred to in Shaolin lore as 4 sections of the Shaolin temple. 僧院 SengYuan as you rightly say is abbey. But it would be kind of strange to say 'NanSengYuan' , uncomfortable even, so it is shortened to Nanyuan. Translating it as courtyard makes no sense as most people do because it wasn't a physical cloister. Rather it is a building that housed monks, possibly with its own dormitory and refectory etc, so abbey seems the best fit, indeed even the dictionary definition of SengYuan.
'Tang' would be a hall within the temple walls. These 4 abbeys would be subordinate to the Shaolin temple proper but not simply halls within it. Shaolin temple proper is not just a monastery but a famous temple. People could go there to worship. The 'abbeys' however are stricter communities of monks.
But how does it look? Think of a university campus... There are separate buildings for each department, some even with their own dining facilities etc. however all are within the university campus. You mention ChuZuAn, the ancestor monastery, This is also well within the bounds of what is Shaolin temples land. That extended a long way around the mountain. So I think the way to think of these places like Beiyuan is just like the ChuZuAn is, slightly separate but within Shaolin area. Or think of it like a private boarding school, students have their own 'house' with its own sleeping and dining facilities, but go over to the main 'school' every day for their lessons. The houses are mixed for lessons but compete in sports against each other etc.
Nowadays the Shaolin area has completely transformed. In the Ming dynasty Shaolin temple housed 1000 warrior monks and probably still more of other classification. These would not fit into what is now the Shaolin temple. There are many villages and hamlets also within the temple area, who farmed the land but paid dividends to the Shaolin temple, probably prayed there and were under their protection and practiced their Wushu. It was a very different landscape to what we see now with many many many more buildings and settlements.
The Nanyuan and Xiyuan forms and styles are different enough to assume the abbeys were not literally side by side, but similar enough to show they were a community.
I seem to recall Abbot Xingzheng was of Beiyuan lineage and that they also had things they trained.
Its entirely possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
I have never come across the BeiYuan or DongYuan sects in terms of martial arts. Doesn't mean they didn't have any, I hope they did, it would be fascinating. But there is so much of Nanyuan and XiYuan, and its always posed as an either or, I just assumed that they were the more scholarly and meditative parts of Shaolin.
I don't know how long or if these divisions survived into the 20th century in terms of the structure of the monastery.
"Or think of it like a private boarding school, students have their own 'house' with its own sleeping and dining facilities, but go over to the main 'school' every day for their lessons. The houses are mixed for lessons but compete in sports against each other et"
LFJ
Interesting speculation, but speculation never-the-less.
There was a Buddhist temple originally called Fa Xing Si, one of the early Buddhist temples which was built during the Three Kingdoms (AD 220–280) , a period when emperors enthusiastically commissioned the building of temples, towers. This temple was built at the foot of Pan Shan 盤山 near Tianjin, just southeast of Beijing probably constructed during the Wei Dynasty. Fa Xing Si became associated with Shaolin, I suspect sometime after 1258 when Fuyu’s began his campaign to reclaim Buddhist monasteries and took charge of Fa Xing Si (see this article: http://ironbodhisattva.blogspot.ca/2011/08/fu-yu.html). I understand that Fa Xing Si was renamed 'Northern Shaolin Monastery 北少林寺', in 1315. Calling it a '北院' 'northern monastery', makes more sense than anything in proximity of Dong Fang.Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
r.
www.shaolinwushu.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlg4Ip9DWfM
I wrote a little about it in the video description. I'll put up a better description with names and dates of important people and whatnot in a day or two, I'm in the middle of moving now.
Great!
Thanks very much for the video TeaSerpent,
In my opinion its not a recent import from SongShan. Though the techniques are all readable that way, the form is more in the style ErLangQuan and many northern styles like it.
Though there was once (and possibly still) a BeiYuan sect in SongShan, I don't think this is a reference to it.
As r.Shaolin says above there is a 'northern shaolin' monastery, and certainly there are sects that refer to themselves as northern shaolin, which are not Song shan. I think this style would more likely belong more to that shaolin tradition.
Songshan itself would always refer to itself as central rather than northern, and its location is literally the centre of ancient China (ZhongYue) and a crossroads for going everywhere, as such has such a huge collection of cultural relics, tangible and otherwise.
Many of Chinas kung fu styles contain a spiritual element, often either Chan or Dao. Where this element is 'Chan' they often refer to themselves as 'Shaolin', since for 1000 years the legend has persisted that Song mountain is the birthplace of Chan. It is less common for the Daoist styles to call themselves Wudang, but they do often relate themselves to ZhangSanFeng.
It would have been outside for at least 300 years.
I'll post up some more info when I get a chance.
300 years is certainly enough to transform to the local flavour. I once trained in a small village south of YuZhai (Shaoshi) mountain. They had separated from Shaolin for 360 years, but still retained the same form names, and XiaoHongQuan parts one and two, though outwardly very differently performed, were still largely the same sequence of techniques as they are in the temple today. Because the village was in the shadow of the mountain as it were, I suppose its techniques are kept constant by the influence of neighbouring villages, whom also practice Shaolin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea Serpent
When removed far both in time and location, it gets harder to see the links. At this point it would be hard to tell. Would love to see more from their sect.
It is conceivable for the term to be used that way by people up there, I suppose, but there isn't a Western Shaolin Monastery 西少林寺, for example. Yet in the Shaolin area there is what we call the Shaolin Xiyuan sect and its martial arts, as well as the Nanyuan which was previously the destroyed Yonghuatang, not any Southern Shaolin Monastery. So we know what Yuan is/was used to refer to in the area.Quote:
Originally Posted by r.(shaolin)
Although, my opinion on the video posted is the same as RenDaHai's. It's not what I would expect to see from a Shaolin Beiyuan if there was one. Not that I would know exactly what to expect, but it wouldn't be too far removed in flavor from the rest of what is found in the area, I'd imagine.
Here are the names of the five monks who created the style, 周福、普红、普俊、普毅、广德. They are described as five monks from the Shaolin Si Bei Yuan (少林寺北院有五僧) during the Ming dynasty.
There was a fighter in who used the style in the mid Qing dynasty who became legendary for fighting defeating almost 100 people in Cangzhou consecutively in an open challenge.
Here's a link to a page with a little info.
http://www.shaolinsixuexiao.com/Aboutus/101.html
Anyone have any back ground on these sets?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3EwAKVJJgY
I've only been able to trace them back about 100 years.
If you guys know anything about the origins of these sets, their early history, or how they fit in with the other forms practiced at Shaolin, I would appreciate it
Apparently there is a traditional Shaolin martial art being practiced at the Northern Shaolin Monastery near Pan Shan 盤山. I have not seen any videos of their sets, but they use a crossed yin 印 seal (see below) which is considered a signature of a lay Shaolin, at least in the tradition I practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea Serpent
The sets you posted have many elements of Shaolin Hong Chuan Quan 洪長拳. Do you know if they use the crossed yin 印 seal at the beginning and end of their sets?
r.
www.shaolinwushu.com
Attachment 8144
That webpage lists different names for the first two: Zhouzhao 周招 instead of Zhoufu 周福, and Puren 普仁 instead of Puhong 普红.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea Serpent
Zhoufu 周福 is on my lineage chart (Nanyuan). He lived in the late 1500's to early 1600's, around the time the Yonghuatang 永华堂 (aka Shaolinsi Nanyuan) would have first been built.
So, given their generations, these monks on your list would have most likely been around in the early 1600's. The webpage says there's no written record of when the style they created was transmitted outside Shaolin, but this would have been very close to the late Ming destruction and desertion of the monastery in the 1640's. So it is entirely possible that they fled north taking their new style to the Beishaolinsi area at that time, and it has since been centered in Cangzhou. This would account for there being no written record and for a Beiyuan system not being found around Songshan, since it was newly developed just before the place was destroyed and didn't have time to become known and spread there.
AWESOME FIND!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea Serpent
Watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl5D7jWE55M
It is the same as the first road of the video you posted.
This was taken actually at Shaolin. The performer If memory serves is a student of ZhuTianXi, which makes it of the Shi Degen lineage. However I do know Master TianXi had other teachers and not all of his methods are from Shi Degen.
It looks like archetypal longfist, Shanxi hong quan style, which none of the rest of Shaolin really does. This made me think that it was perhaps a later import.
Either way, you have found the origin! I would love some more info on it. Interestingly, it is not 'Zen' but a different Chan character, I am not sure of the meaning. I had earlier assumed it was a corruption of ChaQuan since the style looks so similar, but this may prove me wrong.
So, we now have a video of the complete Shaolin Chan Quan, thanks!
Do you know precisely where and who this style is still practised by? Might be worth a visit to someone.
That character 阐 means to express, to disclose, to enlighten, to open, to explain, to elaborate, etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by RenDaHai
So it's some sort of animal system. That video said Suzhou, as in next door to Shanghai?Quote:
So, we now have a video of the complete Shaolin Chan Quan, thanks!
Do you know precisely where and who this style is still practised by? Might be worth a visit to someone.
I'll try to get the info at some point, I have it somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by RenDaHai
But I know this was being taught at Shaolin in the first two decades of the 20th century.
It was brought to Suzhou by a guy who was at Shaolin at the time. Eventually he decided to work for a security company in Sichuan instead of becoming a monk. He was one of Hai Deng's best friends, Hai Deng was going to move to Suzhou in the 50's or 60's to open a school teaching traditional Shaolin with him. But he ran into political troubles at the last minute and left Suzhou right after he got there to keep his friend from being involved.
I can't remember his name offhand, but these are his students.
I'll look for the info I have on it and post some more later.
Actually now that I think of it Hai Deng may have stayed in Suzhou for a couple years.
But I know they never opened the school and he tried to stay away from his friend, at least publicly.
In any case this doesn't come from Hai Deng, this is his friend's lineage.
But yeah the Suzhou near Shanghai, it's generally just called Suzhou Shaolin there.
However it was only brought there around 1950, by a Shaolin disciple.
The people who practice it call it Shaolin Chan Quan, I'll have to check which character they use for Chan.
Interesting thanks!
The animal names don't seem to add anything, there is nothing characteristic in the sets and it is unusual for northern sets to name that way. Possibly a later addition to distinguish 1st road 2nd road etc.
So there is a link with HaiDeng..... Could this still be something Hai deng was teaching during a brief period at Shaolin before the 50's? I mean, if they were friends before he went to SuZhou.....
Certainly it is not characteristic of the rest of Song Mountain Wushu, and I have not seen it practised outside of the sect shown..... Then again there is a certain link to Shaolin temple through this sect.....
Suzhou.... very convenient, maybe worth a look.
Typical of the sets we practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by RenDaHai
r.
The Wu Zi Quan set is the one that claimed to come from Shaolin Bei Yuan. The sets in the Suzhou Shaolin Can Quan video are unrelated to Wu Zi Quan and are from Shaolin proper, or at least they were being taught there from the last few years of the Qing dynasty through at least 1920 or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by r.(shaolin)
Sorry I kind of switched subjects in the middle of the discussion.
All I know of the Suzhou Chan Quan sets is what I have seen in that clip. It was taken as part of the national martial arts survey in the 1980's.
I can't find the info I had on him before, but the name of the person I was talking about who brought the 6 Chan Quan sets from Shaolin to Suzhou was Wang Ziren 王子仁.
They seem to use the standard character for the Chan sect when they write Chan Quan.
There is some info on him and some of his students here.
http://city.sina.com.cn/city/t/2012-...2934126_3.html