As the title, what throws do you often find to be useful in your wing chun, or in combination if they are not from wing chun?
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As the title, what throws do you often find to be useful in your wing chun, or in combination if they are not from wing chun?
Hmmmm, I tend to find sweeps and trips are what I find most useful but I am not sure if they are considered throws proper. As some of the sweeps and trips need you to load the opponents weight on a given leg or offset slightly their centre of balance (breaking their body mass' alignment with the jic seen?) and that throws too sometimes require this, perhaps they can be discussed here?
Either way, given my judo background and despite there being sweeps and trips in the wing chun system as I see it, my bias is Japenese;
1) ko-soto-gari 2) ko-uchi gari 3) o-uchi-gari 4) o-soto-gari 5) de-ashi-barai 6) hize-guruma and sometimes if opponent has a very narrow stance 7) sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi 8) okuri-ashi-barai 9) harai-tsuri-komi-ashi
I embed a reference chart below so you can see what I am referring to.
Although with some of the techniques I list some will put their entire body weight in to it and often land on their opponent, I have a preference for trying to stay standing when incorporating it into my wing chun training. Indeed remaining upright and stable (as much as possible) is my rationale for choosing these techniques over others in my wing chun and what I find the most useful.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...yo-no-waza.jpg
There are throws in the WCK system???????????
Where?? :eek::confused::confused:
I don't want to direct my question at him! If you think you have seen him do a trip or foot sweep then show me the link/evidence.
What is the harm in asking where the foot sweeps are in your system? You seen to be going on the defensive rather quickly when you should be open to discussing where there are actions in PB's VT that I don't know about and have never seen him do on video footage!
If you have foot sweeps in your system then great! Do what you want! I don't and that's that. IMO nor should Bayer! If you have seen them I can ask.
......................you make me laugh Paddington as you are always saying things about PB without knowing anything about him or his KF. It's bizarre.
I just made a comment based upon the videos I have seen on youtube where he uses, in conjunction with other things, his feet and legs to knock someone down. I can't comment on anything beyond that. If you want to go search for the videos then be my guest.
As for where I practice trips and sweeps in my wing chun during my solo training, well, I use the dummy, the opening of biu jee and circle stepping, three point stepping, and a kicking dummy.
I chose to include the judo references because I have trained in judo and the examples I cite are those most similar to what I train with respects to wing chun and my understanding of sweep and trips therein, particularly when incorporated into a chi sau training format.
Ok that's no problem but I never seen him knock anybody down with a foot sweep or trip and I've never seen it on video. I've seen them all so it's puzzling.
The circling of the legs in my BJ is not a foot sweep and kicking the dummy isn't either. There is also a very good reason why we circle step in VT and it's not to do with foot sweeps in my system. If that's how your WCK is then fine.
Putting Judo into Chi Sau or VT in general is a big no no for me. If you can make it work, great but it defeats the whole idea in my opinion.
Yeah definitely the foot sweep. But it's not wing chun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug9_rymsEic
Seth's pretty good at these. He's got variations of it he's worked on and taught a bunch of people. Variations like the gravitron 3000, the bully, the lone wolf. They work pretty well. He is a bit ****y naming stuff like that as a purple belt, but one of my friends did guillotine choke him in about 20 sec at the last tournament after he was a bit too dedicated to this approach so it's all good. Seth has showed me all of these and they are very legit. That video is Seth basically KO'ing somebody at the Pans this year. The guy hits his head and is dazed. Seth on the ground there tells the guy "I know you're almost out - just tap out" and the guy did. This was a non striking grappling tournament to the uneducated. Just shows the potential.
Graham, here are a couple of examples:
@0:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-NjPDwUA18
@1:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km7xuoeF5B0
There's another good one where the guy rolls over backward, but I can't seem to find it.
Well maybe you have not seen them all. For example in the video below at around the minute mark there is what looks like to me a sweep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcWcy2NA1pk
~EDIT: I find it easier to watch them when the audio is muted.
Another example, and one I really like, is the one in this video at around the 40 second+ mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-NjPDwUA18
Uh, duh, hello, Paddington... both of those videos have already been posted. :p
Now this is the thing isn't it? I've not met PB, not heard him make a comment but there is a bit where when asked what he thought about cross training with say BJJ he said;
So, given what I've seen of the videos I have to say yes, perhaps PB does see sweeps and trips in his wing chun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayer2012
To move the thread on, I always enjoy watching Wang Zhi Peng using trips, sweeps, throws and takedowns. I particularly enjoy watching his use of the dummy.
Well, I was writting my post and linking to the videos as you must have been doing yours. At one point my post was directly after Graham's then by the time I posted the second one, becasue I discovered that I don't have permission to post more than one embedded video, it shifted and appeared after yours. Such is the thing with forum boards. No need for the duh IMO.
Plus, they were precisely the videos I had in mind when I commented earlier on in the thread.
Thanks for including the chart of the judo throws, made it a bit easier, as some I remember by name, not all.
And yes, any take downs/trips is fair game for the topic.
Some of the throws Paddington mentioned, or at least my style's equivalents, are also one's I have found useful.
You see this is the problem. People look at video clips of Bayer and try to second guess what he is doing without actually being there or having him explain things properly.
It's normal these days.
If I was you Paddington I would give up on the whole PB assumption thing.
He's tripped me up many a time and there is a good reason for it and he also explains why this circling foot sweep idea that many people think is in Bil Jee is not a good idea.
Stop trying to draw conclusions from video footage FFS!
........................and BTW Bayer is not fighting in those videos. He would tell you (if you were there) that he is just playing. He also pays attention to correcting peoples errors hence the reason why he will kick your leg away if you balance or structure has gone to sh1t!
Circling foot sweeps against decent people have less to do with structure problems, and more to do with attacking during a weight transition. There is no way around the fact that weight transitions have to happen, and they create opportunities for throws and sweeps, thus, moving with cover, but which cover you use creates other opportunities against you.
Well, Graham, I was not just referring to circle stepping with respects to Bayer or what I do.
I think the only way I would be convinced otherwise, that there are no sweeps or trips in his wing chun, would be if he said so or one of his authorised most senior students said so.
That's not a demand for them to say anything but more pointing out that you are neither of them and that basing my opinion on video footage, is not really to make 'big assumptions'. That's just my opinion.
But anyway, I find little trips and sweeps the most useful. That may change with future training.
I agree with you. Video clips out of context can be very misleading. Graham, if you can clarify things that would actually be helpful.
Actually, I have had pretty good success (when the situation permits) using the Huen-bo/circle-step to sweep and throw an opponent. I've also had good results counter-throwing some people who attempt that move on me. Maybe that is one reason why it may not be such a great idea? Done improperly or in the wrong situation it can compromise your structure and balance.
Regardless, I would be the first to point out that sweeping is not the main intent of the huen-bo movement as I have been taught it. In fact, I would not seek to define any of the movements in the forms in terms of applications. There is a difference between seeing a movement in a particular application and mistakenly thinking that the application is why we do the movement.
Sounds like a perfect time to trip someone up in a fight as well to me! Maybe if you stopped defending other people's methods, you may see that the foot sweep, even by your own words, isn't such a horrible thing given the correct situation? For me, if I have an efficient tool that takes advantage of someone's unbalanced gravity or poor structure, I'm going to use it.
FWIW, we have foot sweep in the opening of our SNT form. While I personally don't focus my training on them often, I've had several times where they are the best option to take advantage of an opponent's positions and balance in sparring, playing around, etc. I would prefer to use low line kicks to get the job done, but there are times where facing and positions don't allow kicks, but the sweep is right there for the taking!
Hello,
Being that Wing Chun Forms are conceptual in nature, one can argue for there being throws within the system.
The Gum Sau movements in the SNT, where you press downward alongside your body just after the first section.
You could conceivably use the energy there, the press downward to develop into a throw. You have to use a little imagination but it is there, at least to my eyes.
Having said that, I find many of the "throws" I utilize are really more like foot sweeps. I place my leg as an obstruction and try to make my opponent fall over them. I do not, usually, actively try to sweep someone in the conventional sense. I tend to incorporate things from my Silat training. My big thing is to not use power or strength (as I have neither ;) ) but allow my body to be the obstruction which causes my opponent to fall. Then again, in Silat there is a concept we refer to as a table. This is where when you do drop your opponent you try to drop him into a knee or the like so he feels the impact.
Wing Chun is not a "throwing" art. However, I do believe that one can very easily incorporate foot sweeps into the system without violating any of the principles. Now if you start adding in Hip Throws, Shoulder Throws and the like you are, IMHO, doing something other than Wing Chun because you will have stepped outside of the conceptual framework of the system. Mainly because in those types of throws you need to give your opponent your back for them to be applied, if even only for a moment. This would violate the concept of using the centerline. But, having said that, I would also like to point out that Wing Chun is an eclectic system developed from several different arts as as a result we should keep in mind that as our needs grow and change then perhaps our art may as well. If you find that you can utilize and apply a Hip Throw, for example, then do it as long as you can maintain your own structure and not sacrifice something in the doing.
Well put, Joy.
WC/VT/WT is said to be a complete system. According to a traditional TCMA perspective, that would mean thet it addresses Ti, Da, Shuai, Na or kicking, hitting, throwing and locking. Not all equally of course, but nevertheless it does encompass all four combative aspects to some degree.
WC is built from seed techniques such as tan, bong, and fook, from which a nearly infinite number of solutions or applications may emerge as needed. IMO a good understanding of WC demands divergent thinking -- at least at the higher levels. Instead, some sifus and organizations encourage slavish conformity and cult like dogmatism. Or at least that's the impression some of their students give!
Divergent thinking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divergent_thinking
About 20 years ago, a wing chun sifu by the name of Robert Debreen wrote a great article in inside kung fu on the hidden swai jao throws in the wing chun forms. if anyone knows the link pleas post it.
A good post, thanks.
On the bit I quote, now I might not be as experienced as some here but I've found other movements beyond gum sau to really help develop a throw or offset a person's balance to the extent that a foot in the way (trip) or a more active movement (sweep), will floor an opponent. For example, the folding movement of jip sau in chum kui or a tok sau with one hand and a jut/jum or small lap with another, particularly when performed on a turn with the hip leading the movement, works wonders. This simultaneous push and pull on an opponent really helps unsettle their balance.
I read throws being hidden in the forms, that to find them you need to use your imagination, that you could possibly interpret BJ's circling steps as sweeps, etc... Does this really sound like a sophisticated system of throws and/or grappling? :confused: Any practitioner of BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, etc. would just quietly shake his head and walk away...
Ving Tsun is a Chinese Boxing method. Use it as it was intended. If you want to expand your game in the throws & grappling realm, go to the pros in such things (BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, etc.!); don't waste your time with dilettant attempts of imagining such things in Ving Tsun. Perfecting your Ving Tsun boxing is already hard enough...
I agree, Buddha_Fist. "Hidden" application really means "forcibly contrived".
Those who do this kind of thing either haven't learned the actual function of the actions, or they are just too attached to their Wing Chun and wish it were a "well-rounded" system. I think anyone serious about their fighting skills will do as you suggest and either just keep training Wing Chun alone or go to the experts in other fields rather than pull things out their asses and say it was there, hidden all along.
I suck at throws, and I still haven't had a good chance to learn them well yet, but I do have a bunch of takedowns that I use. Some of them may be considered Ving Tsun takedowns in their own right, my sisook once showed me how he took down people with his Ving Tsun, but I didn't really understand what he was doing until getting the opportunity of drilling takedowns while cross training in Penjak Silat.
Biset Luar - The person I cross trained with actually learned from the sifu in this video, and I find it to be a trustworthy explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PULhW6gbLDY
Biset Dalam - This is basically redirecting a strike and sweeping out the lead foot of the opponent and moving in to attack. It doesn't take em down like biset luar, but it breaks their base and if you can pull it off right it does make the other person fall back just because of how they get uprooted.
Poora - Think about hitting someone with a back fist to the neck/head and using that momentum to somewhat grab the neck and pull the guy's head down while controlling one arm so you kinda twist him upside down. That's the best I can explain it at the moment, but it's a common move in many martial arts.
There were also one other silat takedown that I use sometimes, but not often. I dont know the name for it but it's basically getting wrist control (optimally with both hands) and stepping far past the opponent into a bow stance/gong ji mah. The sudden drop happening behind the opponents body brings him down fast and if you whip the arm up right after it's easy to set up an arm bar silat or bjj style.
There are also some ways I learned to take down in Ving Tsun but I think are common in other arts
One is really similar to aikido (according to my friend) but it's basically a takedown where, lets say, you pak or parry a jab from the outside and just use your body and weight to kinda swing your other arm on the inside (in between his arms) around his shoulder area downwards.
One takedown is one where the set up is having a grab on one arm from the outside while doing a back fist or any move that puts your kiu/bridge across the front of the person's neck. Then you just pull the arm that you're holding while using the other arm to kinda push across the neck while shifting to the side and adding downward pressure with the arm across the neck. Sometimes, especially with people bigger than me, my shift will break their base but not take them down, that's where I follow with my staple takedown...
...where the goal is to do a fast but soft kick to the back of the thigh/hamstrings area using the side of my foot. Then I slide down and my foot rests at the knee cap above the calve, from here I just step down, (not to be confused with kicking the back of the knee). It's the one way of taking someone down that I can demonstrate on anyone (well unless the guy can just kick my ass, i need a fighting chance lol). I've never done this just because it would be to rough for the way I spar, but once the knee of the opponent is brought down, this take down can technically be a throw because you can just slam the body down into the ground by sinking and applying pressure to the shoulders/torso. At the angle you end up in, it's unlikely that the other person can resist any pressure to their broken structure and bent body.
I really want to train some Judo and Shuai Jiao to get familiar with the art of throwing, I think it's so cool but I dont know it at all except when learning a hip throw in a brazilian jiu jitsu class, and that was one day and I still suck at it lol.
Thanks for these posts, they have indeed given me pause for thought so sorry to Faux Newbie if I necessarily go off topic slightly.
Upon reflection most of what you both say comes from a particular perspective and attitude to wing chun which also, at least in the case of LFJ, cautions against taking movements from forms and mapping them one-to-one onto an application, even when it is stressed that other applications and uses for said movements are available.
First, I don't think it is the case of anything being hidden and I do think wing chun is a complete martial art in the sense of a set of training methods and ideas. Speaking from my own training and view of wing chun, often it is not the case of finding hidden moves but rather performing moves in chi sau, sparring or other scenarios, stuff that comes up in the moment, and asking where in wing chun's training method, which includes form work, can I find movements to refine what just worked in the heat of the moment via partner training.
To give one of my own examples. In one training session I found my self in the position of having a double arm contact on my opponent's right arm on the outside which I quickly took advantage of, by performing a double lap sau to the right side of my body around hip level whilst stepping back with the right leg. I ended up with my opponents arm locked out and lining up with his shoulder and the side of his body and on a tze M seen very much to my advantage, so I thrust his arm very much like in the pole form (biu kwun) and found I could send him a mile. I also found that when we played with the possibilities, I could use a biu kwun with little bit of a dang kwun motion to put his face and body into the ground.
Of course when I did these movements in the heat of the moment I did not have these terms, the Chinese ones, in mind. However I did immediately ask myself, where in the forms and the solo training methods can I practice and refine these movements? For me the double lap I decided to train via one of the knife forms, tor dao, and the latter movements as already disclosed I decided to refine and practice from a pole form. Doing this, IMO, is different from taking the forms and seeing applications or even saying there are hidden techniques. It is, at least for me, more the case of seeing wing chun as a method and a comprehensive method at that.
Yes, I think it does help to cross train and have experience elsewhere but I always find myself coming back to wing chun and firmly remaining rooted here. This is because when I ask myself, where in the wing chun method and solo exercises can I train these moments learnt from other disciplines, I always find good answers that help me to improve. This includes improving both trips and sweeps.
I think you can end up doing many things in sparring that do not exist in Ving Tsun, mostly because they do not fit within the framework of strategies and body mechanics of Ving Tsun. Instead of trying to find them in your Ving Tsun, I think it's a better use of your limited training time if you focus on translating the skill set developed through your Ving Tsun into sparring. That way when you spar it actually looks like Ving Tsun and not a like a bad version of Kickboxing (not that it does in your particular case, but you can see the point). This alone requires a lot of hard work, progressive layering in the development of skills, and both an honest and technical examination of what you do when sparring and how it is supported by the drills (forms, Chi-Sao, heavy bag, focus mitts, etc.). It's a never ending cycle of hard work by evaluating your skills through sparring and going back to the drawing board (drills) to reinvent yourself. You are constantly sharpening your knife..