There are several avenues where Yang Taiji has spread throughout the world. Where does your Yang Taiji come from?
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There are several avenues where Yang Taiji has spread throughout the world. Where does your Yang Taiji come from?
Could Include-
Kuo Lien-Ying- 'Guang Ping'Yang Taiji
Wang Yien Nian- Yangjian Michuan Yang Taiji
Anyone know any good sites for Yang Tai Chi. I'm thinking about taking it up and am looking for some good video clips as well.
Thanks in advance for the help. :)
very very very few good clips of quality Yang Style on the internet. This is due to several reasons, most of which I wont get into.
The main reason of this is becuase most practioners of the yang styles of taiji do Yang Cheng-Fu's 24-movement for health benefits. You'll find this ALL over the internet and it posseses little to no martial application.
If you come accross Yang Lu'chans old yang style clips then you may be in for a treat.
You might also find some clips from YCF's long form, which might be decent depending on who is in them.
If you want some good videos on the yang style though you might give <A HREF="http://www.taichiworld.net" TARGET=_blank>Erle Montaigue's site, http://www.taichiworld.net a look.
As for clips, you may find a lot more of push hands/sticky hands on the internet then taiji. Thats because this tends to be a lot more popular then the forms themselves as people use it as a measurement of their martial abilities (a fatal mistake I might add).
Good Luck on Your quest, and ask any questions you'd like, as I study Yang style and will do my best to answer them.
Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres
Thanks for the response. How does this style differ from lets say HSING I? Is this more internal or external? Or is it about the same?
Nexus,
at least get your numbers straight.
Yang Chengfu's routine is known in many parts of China as "Ba shr wu su Yangs sze Taijiquan" or 85 Posture Yang's Taijiquan. Some folks also count it as 103, 108 and other numbers.
The 24 Posture Taijiquan (also known as Simplified Taijiquan) is based in a major part on Yang style but is NOT Yang style. There are MANY major differences between the two routines. 24 Posture was created in the 1950's (1955 if memory serves) and was designed to be a basic and beginning routine that would build a foundation and be good for health.
As such, it does EXACTLY what it was created for. Don't expect a Volkswagen to be a Mercedes Benz.
Also, while I agree with you on the quality of videos you will find on and off the internet for Yang Style, it is not simply the 85 posture that is bad...it is virtually all of them. Finding a good video on Taijiquan is not an easy thing to do.
Finally, it would be nice if you would split your opnion sections from your advertising section. While you may have a point about the quality of most videos, your statements are tainted and come off like "They suck but my teacher is great" by the way you got to the website and blurb for Montaigue. I am sure there are more constructive ways to get a plug in for your favorite.
I see you giving a lot of criticism to my suggestions of trying to help somebody out but no suggestions for them on where to start their research.
I was trying to help the person who asked the question, not badger other posters who had aid in the subject. The person who asks questions on this forum should take what we each say as a grain of salt.
Me trying to put in a plug for my favorite teacher? At least I gave them a teacher to base some learning off of rather then just bad mouth someone else for providing one.
Why don't you focus your next posts GLW on helping the person who is asking these questions rather then telling those who answered how to be as profound as you.
PS. My mistake on the history, you seem to know that better than I. Thanks for the information, I will compare that to what I had thought I knew and make changes. Thanks.
And also you might be interested to know that Erle Montaigue is not my taijiquan instructor as he lives in Australia and I live in Alaska. He is though a friend and I respect his abilities.
I don't play into the game of favorites, unless it comes to italian food.
- Nexus
Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres
[This message was edited by Nexus on 08-14-01 at 04:40 PM.]
And then it was brought into the light... By the way, this is from another website, not my own, but it should give a rough idea or accurate one depending on what you have learned.
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy...mages/yang.gif
- Nexus
Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres
"I see you giving a lot of criticism to my suggestions of trying to help somebody out but no suggestions for them on where to start their research. "
My first criticism was at your MISINFORMATION concerning Yang Chengfu and 24 Posture Taijiquan. Exactly where is MISINFORMATION in any context helping anyone. Just setting the record straight.
"I was trying to help the person who asked the question, not badger other posters who had aid in the subject. The person who asks questions on this forum should take what we each say as a grain of salt. "
I merely pointed out that it was NOT true. A bit too tongue in cheek ....but if it was too abrasive, Sorry... I meant to encourage you to separate your plugs for what you like from misinformation. I may have included you with others from a certain area that tend to insult all people who do not do their version of Taijiquan....if I did that...again...Sorry.
"Me trying to put in a plug for my favorite teacher? At least I gave them a teacher to base some learning off of rather then just bad mouth someone else for providing one. "
The plug seemed to me to be at the expense of others. That is what I objected to. I do NOT have to list my teacher in order to object to such a thing.
"Why don't you focus your next posts GLW on helping the person who is asking these questions rather then telling those who answered how to be as profound as you."
Correcting erroneous information IS helping. Also, as you mentioned and I agree, there are VERY FEW sources on the web that are worth looking into. The poster would do better to go to something like A Taste of China or look around for a live teacher.
I imagine that he/she would also get a better list if they asked for instructors in their area.
"PS. My mistake on the history, you seem to know that better than I. Thanks for the information, I will compare that to what I had thought I knew and make changes. Thanks. "
Next time, I may try to be less tongue in cheek...it might be taken better :)
"I don't play into the game of favorites, unless it comes to italian food"
ONLY Italian food? I tend to play favorites on many types of food....Life is too short to eat bad food.
How does our friend Erle fit into the lineage chart? Isn't he teaching and received the true transmission of the "original" Yang style?
How do those students of Lee's get listed amongst the great names of Yang Tai Chi? Are they recognized Yang disciples and how come nobody ever heard of them?
I didn't make that chart, I found it and thought it would give a general sense. That chart was made by a school that I am completely unfamiliar with and I just wanted to give those out there a sense of at least the lineage, although it is probably not accurate by any means. I do not stand by that chart, nor did I have anything to due with its creation. I would take it as just a reference or a starting point to some investigation if you want to learn more about the actual history of the yang style. I guarantee if you found 20 websites, with 20 different charts, most of the dates and names would be slightly different if not completely different!
Sorry for any confusion.
- Nexus
Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres
Nexus has that right on.
Even if you are at a school where the teacher is quite good, you may find the lineage thing questionable.
For example, I have found that virtually every Yang style that I have seen in the past 16 years that is NOT directly traced to Yang Chengfu has the people doing it tracing it to Yang Banhou or trying to.
Considering that Yang Banhou was reputed to have only had 4 students who stayed with him, the countless styles that try to link to him tends to stretch credibility...especially since many look WAY different.
There are a couple of Yang styles that are NOT Yang Chengfu based that do not make the Yang Banhou claim....and some of those are plausible and some are pretty much out there in believabilty as well.
This is not really much help to newbies. Actually, I had been doing Taijiquan for almost 8 years before I became aware of the major amount of BS in the history from most teachers.
Yang Family - Ip Tai Tak, Yang Chou Sung's 2 daughters
Yang Family Style - non recognised by the family at all but lay claim to family lineage - a few wannabes that think having the family name gives them credence
Yang style - anyone using the Yang form (or derivative), including those that are 'family' lineage but cannot be arsed to get involved with the political side of it all.
Old Yang style - this is a Taiji set allegedly from before Yang ChenFu made it easy. This has not been substantiated either way (I don't know the full story as it isn't really important). Earle teaches this.
So Earle doesn't associate himself with Yang family Taiji at all as it isn't the same thing as far as he is concerned.
"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"
Here's some Taiji clips: http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head5e/index.htm
in china, there would be no difference in you saying whether you practice yang style, yang family style, or yang chengfu style. when we take the translated terms and scrutinize them with western thinking... well, we all know what happens then.
agh... almost forgot what i was going to write... here is a very good site for information. it's not exactly beginner material, but it can give you a good idea if you're serious.
http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/index.htm
i really like the site. so much stuff on it. especially the classics.
about xingyi quan (also spelled hsing i, and numerous other ways) and taijiquan (also spelled tai chi and numerous other ways), they are both very internal. i believe that xingyiquan is more external, however, because the muscles are alternately tensed slightly and then relaxed. taijiquan is very complex in it's use of jins, softness, and neutralizing. xingyiquan is more concerned with raw internal power, full-speed training, and short forms, but lots of them. of course, this is a broad generalization.
you can find more information on xingyiquan at
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan
this is an extremely good site.
i'm glad you came here rather than trusting a site you come across to give you accurate information, or endlessly trying to find a good one. :)
You can see how the lineage chart is somewhat biased as they have Cheng Man-ching as being not a direct student of Yang Cheng-fu. Even Chen Wei-ming recognized Cheng's skill and he was considered Yang Cheng-fu's most loyal and long serving disciple. I do understand that Yang family politics managed to shuffle people around to make their own family look good, this is the case with Cheng Man-ching I feel as it was with Tian Shao-ling who actually studied under Yang Shao-huo and it was said under Yang Chien-huo, however they didn't want him looking better than Yang Cheng-fu I guess
Patriot asked where Erle Montaigue fits into the lineage. His first official teacher was Chu King Hung. Later, he had his form corrected by Yang Sau Chung. After leaving Chu, he found Chang Yiu Chun in Australia, a student of Yang Shao-hou. Chang became his main teacher.
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"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice
Did anyone know the application in yang Taiji or how to get information on the applications in Taiji? Does anyone know the differences between the Taiji family style beside the forms itself. What is the differences between the family.
Some Yang Movement Set.
How do you use them in combat?
1) Grasping Peacock Tail
2) Single Whip
3) Repulsive Monkey
4) Brush Knee push hand
5) Cloud Hands
etc...
"Within stillness is movement, within movement is stillness; your body is a circles."
Bro, you've asked more than you can get from a forum. As for the applications for the form postures, you'll have to be shown them, as you simply cannot learn them from what is written, especially without pictures. Al Krych is a very good Taijiquan teacher in New Jersey that you might want to look up. His e-mail address is pr@nac.net
And as for the family style differences, there are many differences between the family styles. The forms are different, training methods are different...most things will be different. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than myself could give you a comparison list of the different family styles so you could understand a little better.
*********
You will find some stuff here:
http://www.geocities.com/~wahnam/
More specifcly:
http://www.geocities.com/wahnam/comb/combat.html
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You brake my elbow i put your face in s.hit! HA HA HA, how about that, HA HA!
http://www.systemofadown.com/images/blurb3.jpg
Dr. Yang Jwing-Mng has a series of books on Yang Style Taiji that have some very interesting application techniques for the postures you mentioned and more. Even some intricate chin-na for single whip, etc. You can find the books at most reputabale book stores, or order directly form Yang Publication Center--www.ymaa.com.
This might be a good start. I found that the more I practise the postures the more applications come to light. But a book like this is great for a start.
)))Solar Stance((( :)
Tai Chi Chuan : 24 and 48 Postures With Martial Applications
by Shou-Yu Liang, Wen-Ching Wu, Denise Breiter (Editor)
Great book by someone who will be coming up to Alaska for the spring tai chi festival here in 2002!
- Nexus
All the info are very useful!
"Within stillness is movement, within movement is stillness; your body is a circles."
studying applications is good for general purpose. what I have experienced is that most of my teachers show the applications out of push hands training and that study of form, push hands will develope hua jing which is necessary for the martial aspect. This comes from training hard with a good teacher, and having correct form. It is easy to display ming jing or obvious power, but the true goal is hua jing or hidden power. then the applications have true internal power within.
the suggested books above show some applications and may help to a degree, but a good teacher with sound knowledge will advance your practice.
Ma_Xu_Zha
Really excellent insight (training principle). I hope you will take the time to elaborate.
Thanks
solarstance,
- yjm's tai chi applications bite the big one.
ma2,
- nice sounding post; but, you still haven't told him how to apply anything(!) - and, that was the question at hand...
also, i don't believe push hands alone, can really prepare you for actual fighting. (but, it sure does reduce the risk of liability.)
- neque mibi quisquam Judaeorum fabulas objiciat.
There is nothing in the universe that says you have to believe what I mentioned about applications practiced out of push hands. Speaking from my own experience with many teachers there is great mistake in practicing rote applications. The taiji oral explanation for developing skill is something like ni na ting hua da fa - stick, adhere, neutralize, follow, attack and emit this is the heart of push hands. Applications practiced in a stop and go fashion have some functions, but in taiji one purpose is developing sensitivity and softness to react naturally and this is done with push hand training. All the techniques that pung_lu_ji_an is interested in are within the push hands method.
i have to get back to work will check later to claify if necessary.
peace
“ i don't believe push hands alone, can really prepare you for actual fighting. (but, it sure does reduce the risk of liability.)”
Interesting what would you suggest doing to gain the skills needed to use TC?
:)
bamboo leaf
I'd suggest eating rice!
Out of the 10 routines of Yang Style taijiquan who practises the 6th "Xiao Jiu Tian" (Small 9 Heavens) often. Do you find the coling aspects advantages to your normal practise.
I do not practice that form; however, I also study Chen style. The coiling aspects of that form and its practice have helped me in my normal Yang Style practice.
The continuous internal strength, coiling, and quick direction changes in Chen Style have helped me get over rough spots in my Yang Style.
So I see coiling practice as advantageous to normal Yang Style practice.
~ Eric Putkonen
what is your lineage of yang taiji?
The only yang style I have heard has 10 routines is actually the long form broken down into 10 routines.
I am guessing the nature of your question is dealing more with the forms at the middle of the long form? possibly fair maiden plays shuttles?!?
what are the names of the movements in this 6 th routine your mentioning?
My teacher mentions this on applications-
Few people teach taiji shan-sou. As my experience.
Taiji application is from pushhand training. First, you should train with
all the sensitivity and huajin tech. then you got train the ying-yang and
xu-shi, which give you a pretty good eyes to watch and judge people. So
called "wo shueng, ren bei" and it is the basic. Then you you train with
power develop. Current taiji training give people a misunderstanding like
that taiji doesn't need power. Actually it does and has series training
method. The difference between taiji and other martial art is that taiji
empasize to use power on most efficent way, which still need training. As a
whole, it is diffic to learn taiji from book.
It is easy to show someone how to apply ward off, roll back, brush kneee, repulse monkey and cloud hands of of push hands and examples with a student , but in actual combat it will be hard to apply.
sorry I forgot to mentions-
wave hands- is a shoulder strike or blocks high kicks
repulse is a sweep and arm lock
brush knee blocks a kick and presses to face
single whip blocks a strike and chops to troat
ward off is a neck snapper
roll back is a yielding move
press is a cavity squeeze to the chest
push is obvious.
Names :
1. Qi Xing Ba Bu
2. Kai Tian Men
3. Shen Mian Bei
4. Shang Ti Shou
5. Xia Ti Shou
6. Jue Hu Tiao Jian
7. Dan Bian Shen Ying
8. Shuang Bian Shen Ying
9. Chuan Fa Zhang
etc
Yang Lu Chan's.......
I do not practice Yang Taiji...only Zhao Bao and Wudang.
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wave hands- is a shoulder strike or blocks high kicks
repulse is a sweep and arm lock
brush knee blocks a kick and presses to face
single whip blocks a strike and chops to troat
ward off is a neck snapper
roll back is a yielding move
press is a cavity squeeze to the chest
push is obvious.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is application at its most basic level. It is easier in person that talking about it, but single whip as an application of blocking a strick and chopping the throat is the obvious one most teachers show and is usually done to large to be effective in an actual fight.
There are so many applications I don't think any one person knows them all. For single whip I came up with a nasty one that I've never seen taught by any teacher that I know. I start the sequence from fishes in eight through most of single whip. From a high punch from the opponent the fishes in eights is an effective mini-rollback with an arc that sucks the opponent forward. The fingers stab out (going for the throat, one of the pits or creases of the throat in particular) and then for single whip (in Yang Lu' Chan at least) does a small circle and punching through the center with crane's beak basically. Internalize this...really small circle driven from the center. So after the stab to the throat you internally circle the hand and thrust (punch with crane's beak). What really happens is the after the stab you torque/dig into the pit or crease as your rotate the hand along your index finger. From the dig your hand crawls up the neck to give a strike with knuckle(s) (in an upward 45 degree angle). Two movements internally looking like one externally...two strikes for the price of "one" movement. This is a fairly devestating strike, for when me and a partner was working this out we did it as slow and soft as we could and I still hit him too hard (the neck being sensitive as it is). The torque and power dynamics is something else.
My old teacher "discovered" some great but unheard of applications as well. I suggest really taking a look at the form your favor...every movement, turn, weight change, etc. Taking the ends of one movement and the first part of the next like above. I took the last portion of fishes in eight and the beginning of single whip in the Yang Lu' Chan form. Watch just one hand. Perhaps your form has a tell as George Dillman and Chris Thomas describe in their forms. One hand during a movement in the form would be showing you where to strike and the other is the how to strike. Leave no stone unturned and you will be surprised what you could find within the form you do.
~ Eric Putkonen
I dont know what you are getting at here using chinese terms cant read. If you practice xiao bao and wudang why does yang style matter to you?
can you send the names of the 10 routines and all the movements within the 10 routines? I will have a chinese yang style teacher translate them.
purely for the sake of conversation. Just thought someone would know.
sorry I did not know u didn't read pinyin, well anyways not important.
names of the ten ....don't know, names inside also don't know.
Rgds
PS : "Zhao" not "Xiao"
I would first like to mention how grateful I am to how found an intelligent forum in which to further explore tai chi and martial arts.
Now as, to the applicability of Yang movements I must first declare only limited knowledge. My teacher is a Wushu expert from Wuhan, China who has studied Wushu from the tender age of five. We have only touched upon push hands in the two years I've studied with him. My own practice however is a few short years older. My experience has show me that the applications will sometimes "spark" before you as they are needed.
My example comes from this summer as I was beginning my Shorin Ryu karate training. My Sensei in an effort to illustrate an application from kata suddenly burst forth and grabbed me by the throat. Unfortunately it was not Shorin Ryu that came to my rescue but Tai Chi. I immediately responded with the "toe stretching kick" of the Yang short form. Both of my hands flew to his fore arms in an inside-out motion with the outside edge of my palms striking the inside of his forearm. At the same time my foot went up and into his groin and it was only as I recognized the softness with which my foot encountered did I realize the accuracy of my strike and I tried to pull it. Luckily, this took place at my house and my Sensei is also a good friend.
My point is that I think that with practice the body gets "hardwired" to move in certain ways. In times of need the applications make themselves known. I teach a basic introductory class in the yang short form (24) I only discuss applications in terms of illusrating more concretely the individual moves themselves and perhaps as a visualization aid to aid the student in her practice.
I would not presume to teach tai chi as a martial art, although that is the way I personnally choose to study.
To the comment about Yang Jwing Ming and his tai chi applications, I will say that I attended one of his seminars awhile back and was very impressed. He is an impressive human being and his martial art is very real. I would not dismiss him so quickly.
Thanks.
Here is what my teachers said-
I know nine small heaven only by the name. I don't believe any body is good
at that in China. Don't spend much time on this.