Ground fighting and Kung fu (all styles known as of today

I haven't see a thread relating a style that do both punch, kick, throws and ground fighting in TCMA in the past history as long as we can recollect written data. I can see some moves with some styles, sweeping, clinch, etc, but I don't see ground fighting techniques as in ju jitsu. Back in the 70's judo or jujitsu was replaced by all the craziness of kung fu during and after BL. What I am wondering is that ground fighting has always existed as martial arts of the world. Can someone can bring some light to why in TCMA there is no ground fighting as in Jujitsu. I know about shuai jiao but I don't categorize as ground fighting. If this topic has been covered extensively I will appreciate to point to those threads.

Thanks

Mig

In TCMA, after takedown you stab the enemy.

Dog Boxing kung Fu Gou Quan .

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Originally Posted by Firehawk4

Dog Boxing kung Fu Gou Quan .

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Really, so in your opinion this style is equal as jujitsu? or fighting on the ground? I am trying to find out why I haven't seen a style similar to jujitsu in China though most of the Japanese martial arts originated from mainland China. Maybe Sanjuro has a different opinion among those who may understand what I am trying to understand. ??

In all seriousness because Japan has warm, comfortable, smooth flooring inside its buildings where people don't wear shoes and kneel on the floor anyway. Grappling seems like the way to go. China has filthy, rough, cold flooring everywhere even inside and no one wants to roll around on the floor unless they really really have to.

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Originally Posted by -N-

In TCMA, after takedown you stab the enemy.

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Sadly, this point is lost to these idiots. They don't realize how modern fighting like BJJ truly is. Here's another question that's thrown around in JMA "Why is there such a short time limit in ground fighting in Judo?" Answer - "because you don't fight on the f***ing ground." People used to carry pointy things that can kill you.

In Japanese culture, warriors carried primary weapons and hidden weapons. Empty-hand fighting was for losers who were unskilled enough to lose their weapons. Empty-hand fighting was a last ditch method that would probably result in death anyways. :( Standing or on the ground without a weapon were terrible ways to face someone wielding a katana, spear or naginata.

Most (all) iterations of Kung Fu that are available today, styles and such do not offer any wrestling or ground fighting techniques.

Most all styles are void of such things. Locking and throwing are found in all styles pretty much, but wrestling etc is simply not part and parcel to Kung Fu.

For the same reasons grappling or ground fighting isn't part of boxing or kick boxing and boxing is not part of wrestling etc. Kung Fu as Chinese martial arts go is kick/punch/throw/ lock. Best to pick up any grappling skills elsewhere. You might get a tip or a trick off a sifu but if s/he is not versed in another system that addresses this specifically, then that doesn't cover the scope of it. many people up their game with BJJ, GR wrestling or Judo. All reasonable and complimentary arts.

In Japan, it was (is) common to sit/kneel on the floor when visiting in homes and some other places. So it also makes sense that if attacked while on the floor, and if he's unable to immediately access his weapon, the MAist would need skills to deal with that situation. And such attacks would almost certainly have involved short weapons such as tantos. The idea is NOT to engage in an extended grappling match, but to be able to defend against and dispatch the enemy.

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

GR wrestling or Judo. All reasonable and complimentary arts.

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Greco Roman Wrestling, Sumo, Judo, Scottish Back-hold wrestling, Mongolian Wrestling, Shuai Jiao, Ju-Jitsu, and many other forms of traditional grappling share a common trait - they do very little and sometimes no groundfighting.

Groundfighting as we know it is an ultra modern construct. Sure it's fun and effective nowadays, but it had little value when pointy things were involved.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

"Why is there such a short time limit in ground fighting in Judo?" Answer - "because you don't fight on the f***ing ground." People used to carry pointy things that can kill you.

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And there's the difference between sport and combat.

In traditional ghetto-fu, if you get taken to the ground, 3 homies kick you in the head.

http://youtu.be/ZcEmMZr9_RU

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Originally Posted by MightyB

Greco Roman Wrestling, Sumo, Judo, Scottish Back-hold wrestling, Mongolian Wrestling, Shuai Jiao, Ju-Jitsu, and many other forms of traditional grappling share a common trait - they do very little and sometimes no groundfighting.

Groundfighting as we know it is an ultra modern construct. Sure it's fun and effective nowadays, but it had little value when pointy things were involved.

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Absolutely.

And the idea that the samurai would have willingly chosen to go to the ground and grapple with an opponent on the battlefield, as I've heard some people on other websites suggest, is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by -N-

And there's the difference between sport and combat.

In traditional ghetto-fu, if you get taken to the ground, 3 homies kick you in the head.

http://youtu.be/ZcEmMZr9_RU

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I've even heard many purely sport-fighting proponents say that that's a cliche and either doesn't happen, or isn't a factor. Which doesn't mean grappling skills aren't important, but that they have their place. And some situations are less appropriate than others.

bjj teaches using an opponent as a shield while lying on the ground against multiple opponents, its still more realistic than wing chun.

traditional folk wrestling usually emphasize holding an enemy on the ground where your team mates can finish him off. wrestling was required against armored elite troops in ancient times.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

Greco Roman Wrestling, Sumo, Judo, Scottish Back-hold wrestling, Mongolian Wrestling, Shuai Jiao, Ju-Jitsu, and many other forms of traditional grappling share a common trait - they do very little and sometimes no groundfighting.

Groundfighting as we know it is an ultra modern construct. Sure it's fun and effective nowadays, but it had little value when pointy things were involved.

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This is a correct but misleading statement. Groundfighting existed in Euro lines of combat. It was simply not viewed as a separate class of fighting from the primary armed skills. The separation is post-Reniassance (and FYI, a number of those "traditional" skills you've listed aren't really all that old). Groundfighting was historically avoided in armed warfare but it was not excluded. It was simply ground killing more than ground fighting. It was just one end of a spectrum of ranges of armed combat, though one not particularly favored. For all the mud that ego hurt traditionalists like to try and throw at MMA, MMA strikers are probably the closest analogue to this on common display.

But this is all non sequitur to the point of TCMA and its absence of developed groundwork, which has as much to do with societal norms as it does this notion of hidden pointy things in someones frog suit. People (non-Chinese) need to stop trying to frame every question about kung fu in terms of making assumptions about practicality and do more work into trying to understand kung fu anthropologically.

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Originally Posted by SoCo KungFu

People (non-Chinese) need to stop trying to frame every question about kung fu in terms of making assumptions about practicality and do more work into trying to understand kung fu anthropologically.

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People need to stop worrying about what's not in tcma and start focusing on what's in tcma.

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Originally Posted by bawang

traditional folk wrestling usually emphasize holding an enemy on the ground where your team mates can finish him off.

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From Art of War to modern military boot camp, it's about teamwork.

"It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten to the enemy's one, to surround him; if five to
one, to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two."

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Originally Posted by MightyB

People need to stop worrying about what's not in tcma and start focusing on what's in tcma.

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Who's worrying. Let us not make it complicated. In general, if there is a fight, chances is that ground fighting is inevitable, so what do you when someone is versed in ground fighting, come on let's be realistic. I am not here to debate all styles against jj or bjj but to understand what happened in China. Someone made the remark about weapons without the need to know how to fight with fist, kicks or else and bawang accurately mentioned about ground fighting in ancient times.

My curiosity is to see the lack of ground fighting in TCMA and just trying to find an explanation both historically and the new evolution with cross training with all other arts that has a component of ground fighting.

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Originally Posted by mig

My curiosity is to see the lack of ground fighting in TCMA and just trying to find an explanation both historically and the new evolution with cross training with all other arts that has a component of ground fighting.

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ground fighting is difficult to learn and that is the only reason it was not common. ju jitsu was already a small elite art and ne waza was even more uncommon and obscure.

in chinese qin na most of the legitimate techniques you just tense all your muscles and hold the opponent with all your strength to buy time and it generally worked fine in ancient battles. in civilian world ground fighting isnt fun to watch so it never developed.

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Originally Posted by mig

In general, if there is a fight, chances is that ground fighting is inevitable

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Bullsh*t. Just throw this idea in the trash. It was a great marketing tactic by a famous family, but it's simply not true.

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so what do you when someone is versed in ground fighting, come on let's be realistic.

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First of all, don't engage them in a groundfight. It's that simple. Think Rousey vs Holm. I've talked about this topic before and included video clips, so do a forum search if you want examples, but here's the jist - BJJ isn't that good at takedowns. Most clubs start randori on their knees.

Listen, there are two situations that people are really talking about when they talk about fighting on da' streetz. You have the classic Ego Butthurt, and it's variant, the drunken Ego Butthurt. Both situations are simple to avoid, but, if you happen to find yourself in one and you want to engage, then here's a training tip.

I expect $50 for this online lesson.

You can win most, if not all, ego and drunken ego fights by training this (classical Karate guys knew this secret):
Sink a 4 * 4 post or a fence post in your yard. Attach a phone book to the post about head high. Strike the phone book with straight punches daily. Increase your intensity over time until you get to the point where you can strike it with full force. You are now equipped with the tool that will allow you to win most, if not all, butthurt fight situations.

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I am not here to debate all styles against jj or bjj but to understand what happened in China. Someone made the remark about weapons without the need to know how to fight with fist, kicks or else and bawang accurately mentioned about ground fighting in ancient times.

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Asked and you received. Weapons and group tactics were the bulk of traditional martial arts training when martial arts were about war. When they became about dueling, then they adapted their own rule sets.

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My curiosity is to see the lack of ground fighting in TCMA and just trying to find an explanation both historically and the new evolution with cross training with all other arts that has a component of ground fighting.

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huh? no you were trolling with the old bullsh*t BJJ / MMA is the best. You changed it up a bit, but it is what it is...

Anyway - your questions were answered.

Now here's something that people don't think about - but TCMA is adapting. CMA is adapting. Years ago when no one knew about BJJ, it had a HUUUUUGGGE advantage. But people learned and adapted including TCMA. But let's not forget about CMA. Specifically San Shou / San Da. Excellent striking, great takedown defense. Pretty much sums it up. You train like that and you win most if not all fights without groundfighting.

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Personally I think BJJ is a lot of fun. It really is an enjoyable form of training. But it is what it is. After blue belt, it's about BJJ vs BJJ and IMPO, there has to be some rule adjustments in the tournament scene because it's getting over-specialized to the point of being silly. worm guard, donkey guard, butt scooting - c'mon seriously.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

Weapons and group tactics were the bulk of traditional martial arts training when martial arts were about war. When they became about dueling, then they adapted their own rule sets.

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Now here's something that people don't think about - but TCMA is adapting. CMA is adapting. Years ago when no one knew about BJJ, it had a HUUUUUGGGE advantage. But people learned and adapted including TCMA.

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Adapting to the martial sport context where going to the ground doesn't get you killed, and you can develop a complete science of an extended ground game.

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Originally Posted by -N-

Adapting to the martial sport context where going to the ground doesn't get you killed, and you can develop a complete science of an extended ground game.

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This is so true N - it really sums up this thread.

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Threads like this frustrate me because TCMA is so developed and people are missing out on something wonderful because of marketing hype.

Keenan does a seminar with basic chin na and people look at him like he's a wizard.
MMA clubs are pushing natural movement seminars which are thinly veiled replicas of forms training.
Gracies are pushing "mindfulness and meditation" which is an attempt to incorporate Zen.
Yoga introduced as a substitute for Qi Gung.

Just do TCMA with a good Sifu and you get all of that!

It'd be so much easier for a person to do TCMA and add the Gracie online Blue Belt than trying to rediscover the secrets of TCMA on their own! :)

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Originally Posted by MightyB

Greco Roman Wrestling, Sumo, Judo, Scottish Back-hold wrestling, Mongolian Wrestling, Shuai Jiao, Ju-Jitsu, and many other forms of traditional grappling share a common trait - they do very little and sometimes no groundfighting.

Groundfighting as we know it is an ultra modern construct. Sure it's fun and effective nowadays, but it had little value when pointy things were involved.

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We're talking about training, which technically is only that.
So, yes, I agree, with a weapon, I doubt I'd even do much boxing and just get to stabbing if threatened.
But not all threats call for the extreme defense of eradication through superior means. And Kung Fu demands measured steps of it practicioners. Otherwise, savagery would do just fine and systems can just head on out the window.
Also, "Do very little"? Explain yourself! :)

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Originally Posted by MightyB

People need to stop worrying about what's not in tcma and start focusing on what's in tcma.

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Two sides of the same question. What are the gaps in your system/training?

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Originally Posted by MightyB

Bullsh*t. Just throw this idea in the trash. It was a great marketing tactic by a famous family, but it's simply not true.

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While not all, or even most, a 0.30 to 0.45 probability is still highly significant. Do you train all your specialized techs that you will have less than 5% chance of use while excluding a skill set that would be useful in roughly 1 in 3 altercations, if not more? That would seem pretty stupid.

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BJJ isn't that good at takedowns. Most clubs start randori on their knees.

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Is BJJ the only form of groundfighting? Funny, growing up in the south where every 3rd boy either wrestled or played football, I must have been imagining all those times someone got speared in a crowded room...

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Listen, there are two situations that people are really talking about when they talk about fighting on da' streetz. You have the classic Ego Butthurt, and it's variant, the drunken Ego Butthurt. Both situations are simple to avoid, but, if you happen to find yourself in one and you want to engage, then here's a training tip.

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While I agree, we could take this logic further. 98% of any altercation occurs before any punch is thrown. So if we're talking about "da' streetz", all martial arts are rather useless compared to situational awareness and not being a douche.

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Asked and you received. Weapons and group tactics were the bulk of traditional martial arts training when martial arts were about war. When they became about dueling, then they adapted their own rule sets.

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And the bulk of what anyone has trained in TCMA is designed around that latter use. Practically all of the empty hand. And really, the majority of the weapon work considering how *******ized its become over the generations. Its always funny to me when civilians try to make assumptions based on military necessities...

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You train like that and you win most if not all fights without groundfighting.

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The most important thing in winning a street fight has nothing to do with style or range. It has to do with initiating aggression and not letting up until the threat is eliminated or an escape route is open. People die by hesitating. The rest is just a means to an end. Being first is a big advantage, sharp pointy things or otherwise.

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Personally I think BJJ is a lot of fun. It really is an enjoyable form of training. But it is what it is. After blue belt, it's about BJJ vs BJJ and IMPO, there has to be some rule adjustments in the tournament scene because it's getting over-specialized to the point of being silly. worm guard, donkey guard, butt scooting - c'mon seriously.

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I think you focus too much on BJJ. It wasn't that long ago you were trying to convince everyone that Judo was going to replace BJJ on the ground in MMA. And while BJJ does get specialized at the higher levels (really, you only need about 2 high % and a couple sweeps once strikes are in the mix), the same criticism is applicable to TMA's. The bulk of what is trained in kung fu is far too narrow to be of any real use, especially in soon to be 2016 North America.

Did I sh*t in your wheaties or am I reading this wrong?

anyway...

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Originally Posted by SoCo KungFu

While not all, or even most, a 0.30 to 0.45 probability is still highly significant. Do you train all your specialized techs that you will have less than 5% chance of use while excluding a skill set that would be useful in roughly 1 in 3 altercations, if not more? That would seem pretty stupid.

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Learn to get up if you fail to defend the shoot - doesn't take much.

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Is BJJ the only form of groundfighting? Funny, growing up in the south where every 3rd boy either wrestled or played football, I must have been imagining all those times someone got speared in a crowded room...

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No - but it is what we're talking about here - (I thought about bringing up wrestling - but the majority of us are out of high school - and you probably shouldn't be fighting high schoolers. The skill does fade without practice and I don't know about you, but I'm not too worried about people my age who may have wrastled in junior high).

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While I agree, we could take this logic further. 98% of any altercation occurs before any punch is thrown. So if we're talking about "da' streetz", all martial arts are rather useless compared to situational awareness and not being a douche.

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I very much agree on this - that's pretty much why I said there's really only two types of altercations a person has to worry about and both are very preventable. The other isn't and training really doesn't help. I'm a big fan of Sanford Strong and the data says MA isn't much of a factor in real self defense.

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And the bulk of what anyone has trained in TCMA is designed around that latter use. Practically all of the empty hand. And really, the majority of the weapon work considering how *******ized its become over the generations. Its always funny to me when civilians try to make assumptions based on military necessities...

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We're talking about historical TCMA. And the research says that historically formations and weapons work were the bulk of TCMA.

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The most important thing in winning a street fight has nothing to do with style or range. It has to do with initiating aggression and not letting up until the threat is eliminated or an escape route is open. People die by hesitating. The rest is just a means to an end. Being first is a big advantage, sharp pointy things or otherwise.

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Again I agree 100%. You should read Sanford Strong's material.

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I think you focus too much on BJJ.

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Because it is the methodology people think about when discussing ground work. I doubt people think first about Judo Newaza, or Russian Sa*mbo, or freestyle Wrestling when they think about ground work.

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It wasn't that long ago you were trying to convince everyone that Judo was going to replace BJJ on the ground in MMA.

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History will vindicate me! Besides - what I said is becoming more and more true everyday. Crowds, i.e. money, like the big throws and BJJ is getting too specialized.

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And while BJJ does get specialized at the higher levels (really, you only need about 2 high % and a couple sweeps once strikes are in the mix), the same criticism is applicable to TMA's. The bulk of what is trained in kung fu is far too narrow to be of any real use, especially in soon to be 2016 North America.

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Very true and pretty much my whole argument in this thread if you read what I wrote. TCMA has a lot to offer and by focusing on a very marginal segment that it doesn't historically cover really does the art a disservice. That's my whole point. It doesn't take long to learn what you need for ground fighting in "self defense"... especially if you train striking really well.

Now what I think we as a community should wrastle with (see the pun) is expressing that very statement, but instead of saying "too narrow to be of any real use" - explain how that seemingly useless stuff is of use especially in 2016 and beyond.

Things like qi gung, flexibility, endurance, balance, expressive movement... just being fit and able to move better, etc. all of that stuff that leads to a balanced holistic lifestyle which is of far more use than any paranoid attempt at being the perfect killing machine.

this topic is moot, if you like fighting why argue whether they need to train bjj or not. this is rediculous. just pay for two or three month lessons. then if you feel you dont need it stop training. what is the problem?


all these changes in the martial art world seems like a hurricane but is just a mosquito farrting in the real world.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

TCMA has a lot to offer
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so does fingerpainting or cooking

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Originally Posted by MightyB

Things like qi gung, flexibility, endurance, balance, expressive movement... just being fit and able to move better, etc. all of that stuff that leads to a balanced holistic lifestyle which is of far more use than any paranoid attempt at being the perfect killing machine.

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kung fu basic activities are marching running with weight vest, lifting weights, punching bags and hitting yourself with a stick. i never heard of "holistic lifestyle"

this is why bbj and mma are great. they are true and authentic with no smokes and mirrors.

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Originally Posted by bawang

kung fu basic activities are marching running with weight vest, lifting weights, punching bags and hitting yourself with a stick. i never heard of "holistic lifestyle"

this is why bbj and mma are great. they are true and authentic with no smokes and mirrors.

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I don't see the advantage to reducing the martial arts to a thing in itself.

It was said above 98% of confrontation can be avoided by awareness. This is not true. Its true for confrontations against only yourself. But many fights happen when you intervene in other peoples fights. A situation in which you have no control, you have no aggressive momentum, no initiative and don't even know who is right and wrong yet conscience compels you to step in. You must know the local unwritten rules of social interaction, but sometimes even when it is clearly dangerous and unpredictable to do so you must interject because righteousness is heavier than your life. It is your duty. Without moral and social cultivation how can you be training kung fu?

It was said that aggression and initiative leads to victory. While undoubtedly true, this information is not so useful. You cannot simply tell yourself to be aggressive. Sometimes you have no aggressive momentum, it simply happens that way, you cannot change this any more than you can change the weather because it is only in part due to you. In such a situation you must fight without it and that requires a whole different strategy. It is called the 'retreating tactic' in Kung fu and dominates longfist, it is useless in sparring however and so no one seems to bother with it. It requires self knowledge and reflection, the ability to read yourself, realise your emotion and respond to your intuition without friction. Without cultivating self knowledge how are you training kung fu?

You cannot remove 'the way' from kung fu, you would be left with some kind of weird dance calisthenics.

If you are capable of being inhumane then you have no need for Kung Fu or for any Martial arts. If you are willing to do anything it is a simple matter to destroy someone, why bother with an art? So if you reduce martial arts out of the context of culture and society, what you get is impractical in any real world way and if you did employ it would lead to all kinds of unexpected consequences. The philosophy surrounding Kung Fu is to put it into its useful context.

I realise the contempt held by many for esoteric philosophy in Kung Fu and I fully sympathize with it. This is because people who attempt to teach it tend to focus on the most abstruse Taoist and Zen mysticism. But these are insignificant. People don't realise that all aspects of Chinese culture are built carefully about a hub of quite rational and conservative CONFUCIANISM. When you remove this hub the rest loses its context.

Just as Ren (Benevolence) and Yi (Righteousness) are the Yin and Yang of man, Wen (Culture) and Wu (Martiality) are the yin and yang of civilisation. You could study one without the other... but why would you want to?

kung fu culture and morality is about combining actual fighting ability with virtue. claiming to be a righteous or enlightened person is the easier part. porn star lexington steel clams to be a devout christian.

in shaolin chan wu you reach religious trance by lifting weights and hitting bags while chanting sutras and mantras. PERIOD. this is non-negotiable. you cannot redefine shaolin.




speaking of esoteric, before i run with 40 pound weight vest i do light body qigong and imagine turning light as a feather, then pray to rabbit god for speed. i chant protection spell before i deadlift. i do this with a straight face. if you find this comical then you need to reevaluate your "pure esoteric holistic lifestyle" because what you truly want is to prance around doing a form and bask in the afterglow of release of a little bit of endorphines after a mild cardio session, thinking you have become a living god. or some other gay sh1t white hippies visualize about. this is just another form of western hedonism. you are still trapped by your senses and emotions.

basically, yes, those bjj schools teaching a bit of zen workship is more authentic than chinatown hobby lobby kung fu. because they have combined real authentic alive combat training with real authentic religious ritual.

where the hell did u guys learn that doing weird stuff means you dont have to train realisticly anymore. how does that even work.

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Originally Posted by bawang

kung fu culture and morality is about combining actual fighting ability with virtue. claiming to be a righteous or enlightened person is the easier part.

i actually partake in real, "primitive", "weird/creepy", "ching chong" sh1t like praying to heaven to strike down enemies, letting my ancestors ghost smell food before i eat them, chant diamond and heart sutra silently when i run or do iron palm. i do it with a straight face. i still learned bjj from friends, how does doing these things stop you from learning bjj i dont get it.

before i run with 40 pound weight vest i do light body qigong and imagine turning light as a feather, then pray to rabbit god for speed. i chant protection spell before i deadlift. i do this with a straight face. if you find this comical then you need to reevaluate your "pure esoteric holistic lifestyle" because my esoteric enlightened penus ranking is significantly higher than yours.

where the hell did u guys learn that doing weird stuff means you dont have to train realisticly anymore. how does that even work.

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Ahaha, but of course. The way of Yao and Shun. The Shen can smell food, the Gui can taste baijiu poured on the earth. In every house I trained in there was a statue of JinNaLuo at the family alter, my masters would enter Shaolin just to pray to him and not to the Buddha. Jinnaluo always faces the place of training and to worship him you must simply train hard before his eyes. Everything according to the 4 seasons. None of these things are silly. Ritual binds the past to the future.

Righteousness and Benevolence intertwine like yin and yang, often it is immoral NOT to seek retribution, if you allow a murderer to go unpunished though you show mercy to the murderer you show contempt for the rest of the world you unleash him upon. Absolute pacifism is not the way. I am not judging any other arts as immoral, simply that this aspect must be acknowledged because morality is the rule by which you act in the world, how can you train action without it?

I would say the sparring and the training is the easier part. The harder part is committing to the rules of virtue in reality, most especially when you know your condition is not up to it. If someone stands up for righteousness despite their lack of ability it is to be admired far more than hard training. But why not do both? I agree that training must be realistic. I'm all for training in all ways and all aspects but being realistic is also about accepting how important a part morality and emotion plays in fighting because these things are what shape the situation that you must then act in with your kung fu.

I myself am deficient in both strength and virtue, but I wouldn't want to seek one without the other.

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Originally Posted by RenDaHai

Ahaha, but of course.

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i can imagine you saying this in real life with fake chinese accent while wiggling your eyebrows like a caterpillar.

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Originally Posted by RenDaHai

my masters would enter Shaolin just to pray to him and not to the Buddha.

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forget your master, do you worship jinnaluo deity. if you dont then you dont train real shaolin kung fu. if you are not hardcore christian preventing you from worshiping pagans, then get on your knees face the direction of song mountain and start praying right now so you can claim legit shaolin.

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Originally Posted by RenDaHai

I myself am deficient in both strength and virtue

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then you have a big problem because it only takes 3 months to gain significant muscle and strength from weight lifting and it takes 1 second to make a morally upright decision when your integrity is at stake, and you been training kung fu for what, 15 years?

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Originally Posted by RenDaHai

I'm all for training in all ways and all aspects but being realistic is also about accepting how important a part morality and emotion plays in fighting because these things are what shape the situation that you must then act in with your kung fu.

I myself am deficient in both strength and virtue, but I wouldn't want to seek one without the other.

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then why you even arguing with me. the whole point of my posting was
-mightyb claimed to train real alive combat before on this forum
- now he claim bjj is not realistic
- then he says he just dont wanna train it, combat is dumb, he lives a gently life of flexibility and self expression

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Originally Posted by bawang

then why the hell are you even arguing with me. the whole point of my posting was
-mightyb claimed to train real alive combat before on this forum
- now he claim bjj is not realistic
- then he says he just dont wanna train it, combat is dumb, he lives a gently life of flexibility and self expression

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Not arguing at all, I agree with your position for the most part, just clarifying my own (for myself as much as anyone) and adding some things that need to be said. Just used your post as a launch.

Don't think MightyB is saying that exactly just that there is not a clear edge around what is Martial Arts, so it becomes part of everything you do, so it is holistic.

My Kung fu is dedicated to King Luo. The image next to my name, that is the talisman of Song mountain. To enter the mountain reverently you must wear it on yellow paper and go through the gate appropriate to the season.

no im pretty sure he hates bjj. maybe from a traumatic event earlier in life like bullying by jocks or reading too much bullshido forums.

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Originally Posted by RenDaHai

My Kung fu is dedicated to King Luo. The image next to my name, that is the talisman of Song mountain. To enter the mountain reverently you must wear it on yellow paper and go through the gate appropriate to the season.

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very good my brother i certify you this moment as totally legitimate shaolin kung fu practitioner. just need to get big muscles then you will be allowed to take students in the uk.

all real shaolin monks must have big muscles

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Originally Posted by bawang

very good my brother i certify you this moment as totally legitimate shaolin kung fu practitioner. just need to get big muscles then you will be allowed to take students in the uk.

all real shaolin monks must have big muscles

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In all honesty my Kung Fu is almost entirely from the villages of Songshan and not from the temple. The temple built their new training hall behind the statues of King Luo instead of in front of his eyes... They don't seem to venerate him as much as they do in the villages.

The prevailing philosophy outside the temple is not Chan but Neo-Confucianism, largely that of the 'Wang YangMing' line.

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Originally Posted by bawang

this topic is moot, if you like fighting why argue whether they need to train bjj or not. this is rediculous. just pay for two or three month lessons. then if you feel you dont need it stop training. what is the problem?


all these changes in the martial art world seems like a hurricane but is just a mosquito farrting in the real world.

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I agree with this.

A few years ago, I took up BJJ for the experience. My first MA experience was Judo, and in that dojo, ne waza was very much a part of the curriculum, though not as extensive as in BJJ. So all those years later, I decided to explore that aspect in greater detail.

I enjoyed the BJJ training and got a lot out of the experience. However, I eventually came to the realization that I didn't love it enough to stay with it for life, so I stopped after a year. And that was okay, too. As MAists, we are the sum of our experiences, and those are different for everyone. I simply decided for myself that if I wanted to explore ground grappling, I would need to go to the art that specializes in it. Good quality BJJ schools are generally not hard to find in most places.

Greetings,


mig:

Grandmaster Alan Lee did a 2 part article for IKF magazine back in the early 1980's, circa 1983. The second part featured a categorization of the types of Chinese ground fighting methods he taught. Within each category was the English translation of the flowered names of the techniques, but no detail on how the techniques worked.

mickey

Greetings,

Thank you, SKM!!

I forgot how good the writing was. It was way better than the photos. The historical info will definitely shake up some assertions made here.

mickey

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Originally Posted by mig

why in TCMA there is no ground fighting as in Jujitsu.

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You may also ask, "Why BJJ has no mobility (run down) training?" The "ground game" and "mobility training - run your opponent down and then take off at the same time" are opposite to each other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJyJApwu7s8

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Originally Posted by bawang

- now he claim bjj is not realistic

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I know... Right?

https://artofgrappling.files.wordpre...if?w=470&h=261

http://img.mixedmartialarts.com/meth...butt-scoot.gif

http://oi42.tinypic.com/b6eu76.jpg