Good clip from Phil Redmond:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRgn...ature=youtu.be
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Good clip from Phil Redmond:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRgn...ature=youtu.be
a much different approach to bong!
I just don't like how TWC stays out at the end of the opponent's punches and tries to block everything where it's most powerful.
If the opponent throws that second punch, which they will, you have to suddenly abandon your plan of entering, and change your footwork to stay out, circling away, keeping distance, and blocking again.
It doesn't matter that you're throwing a punch with the wu, because you're stepping backward taking power away from your point of force.
Well, Phil clearly states in that video that he is using forward pressure. He is stepping in. He is only engaging from further out first because that is where he happens to be when the punch comes. He clearly says in the video that you have to be prepared for that second punch, which is why you Lop forward and not downward and why you keep the Wu ready to defend. And he isn't stepping backward, he is angling to the side. In the video, when the second punch comes, he doesn't move away.
But as an overall strategy I see what you are saying. TWC will often place more emphasis on flanking the opponent to get to their "blind side" over driving right into their center. The idea is that if you only have to effectively deal with one arm at a time, you are in a safer and superior position. In contrast, driving into the center seeks to disrupt the opponent's balance to making it harder for them to land a good strike, even if both arms are still in play. Just different approaches.
I usually watch what they do, more than listen to what they say, because it often doesn't match up.
The only time he steps in is when the partner pulls his punch back without throwing a second and he is caused to fully extend his reach during an attempt to contact and trap that retracting arm. Bit of an arm-chase, I'd say. Dangerous to chase like that when you know a second punch is likely coming.
Watch the feet when he circles out. They are moving away.Quote:
he isn't stepping backward, he is angling to the side. In the video, when the second punch comes, he doesn't move away.
The lead foot circles off to the side. The rear foot follows the heel stepping backward, with reference to his own body.
This is moving away from the incoming right round punch, and backward along the perimeter of the circle.
The result is he's affording the opponent ample space to adjust and continue attacking, while he moves away and has to put up some sort of block, while also taking body mass in the opposite direction of where he's intending to put force in his own punch.
I always see this exact same footwork in any TWC video. If you watch the feet they are always stepping out and backward, where their heels point, while circling around. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Round and round. Never forward into the opponent, leaving a big gap.
The idea is not a bad one. The thing is though, if you allow so much space, you're not really in a much safer or superior position. The opponent is still easily able to adjust and continue throwing power shots at that distance. As you continue to block and circle away, it's just a matter of time. If you don't affect their balance or facing, just slapping at that one arm isn't going to keep you safe.Quote:
TWC will often place more emphasis on flanking the opponent to get to their "blind side" over driving right into their center. The idea is that if you only have to effectively deal with one arm at a time, you are in a safer and superior position. In contrast, driving into the center seeks to disrupt the opponent's balance to making it harder for them to land a good strike, even if both arms are still in play.
Now, getting to the "blind side" and driving right up the center aren't the only options. It is possible to shut down the one arm and disrupt balance and facing, effectively getting to the same "blind side" to avoid retaliation from the other arm while driving body mass into the center. It just takes a different angling footwork and skill set.
The only time he steps in is when the partner pulls his punch back without throwing a second and he is caused to fully extend his reach during an attempt to contact and trap that retracting arm. Bit of an arm-chase, I'd say. Dangerous to chase like that when you know a second punch is likely coming.
---I'd say it is chasing center. He defends from the outer range as he steps off the line and then when the opponent naturally retracts his arm Phil steps and follows it in to attack into the center. He's just covering the arm on the way in.
Watch the feet when he circles out. They are moving away.
---No. His lead foot stays planted as his rear foot moves up to it in a "T step". This moves his body off the attacking line and his body appears to shift back a bit. But his lead foot stays planted. Then the lead foot steps forward and towards the opponent.
The lead foot circles off to the side. The rear foot follows the heel stepping backward, with reference to his own body.
---The lead foot may step off to the side during the "T step" for better angling. But it is not moving back away from the opponent and giving up distance.
This is moving away from the incoming right round punch, and backward along the perimeter of the circle.
---You do realize, that since the perimeter is circular and in front of the opponent, one side of your body can move back as the other side moves forward?
The result is he's affording the opponent ample space to adjust and continue attacking,
---Possibly. But the whole point in flanking like this is to reach a position where it is easy for you to continue to attack but hard for the opponent to continue to attack. Just look at the awkward position his opponent would have to attack from. And one advantage to leaving this space, is that it allows space to kick, or to further adjust the angle with footwork if needed, etc.
while he moves away and has to put up some sort of block, while also taking body mass in the opposite direction of where he's intending to put force in his own punch.
---You pointed out yourself that the perimeter and therefore the way he is moving is circular. So if his body mass appears to swing back at one point, it is on a circular arc and is coming around to power the punch. That's how you use a "T step."
I always see this exact same footwork in any TWC video. If you watch the feet they are always stepping out and backward, where their heels point, while circling around. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Round and round. Never forward into the opponent, leaving a big gap.
---Again, that's the T step. Its not the only step used. But it is a good footwork to use when flanking. And that big gap that you are seeing is very difficult for the opponent to take advantage of. And one should immediately "fill the gap" with a counter attack.
, if you allow so much space, you're not really in a much safer or superior position. The opponent is still easily able to adjust and continue throwing power shots at that distance.
--I guess that's a matter of opinion! Most TWC people would disgree with you!
As you continue to block and circle away, it's just a matter of time. If you don't affect their balance or facing, just slapping at that one arm isn't going to keep you safe.
---True. But again, you don't just keep blocking and circling away. That is just to set up the opponent for your counter.
Now, getting to the "blind side" and driving right up the center aren't the only options. It is possible to shut down the one arm and disrupt balance and facing, effectively getting to the same "blind side" to avoid retaliation from the other arm while driving body mass into the center. It just takes a different angling footwork and skill set.
---True! And I will agree that most TWC guys don't make as much use of that tactic as they should! That is the "take their space and smash their face" philosophy! TWC sometimes seems to put an over-emphasis on staying out at that middle punching range rather than just "running over" the opponent and dominating them completely! That tactic is the aspect I like about CSL Wing Chun! So when I do TWC, I'm not really a "purist." I tend to mix in other things I've learned as well. But its all still Wing Chun!
Yup, the best world is one that you can switch seamlessly between these ideas with no predudice. This also includes side body or center body. The situation will create the effect. Any attachments to one way or another will limit the deal. If I feel any hang ups in my oponent, particularly because of the ' beliefs' of their house I get an instant advantage.
The problem I was getting at was that in attempting to cover the arm on the way in, he fully extended his arm and was quite committed to following that arm back.
If suddenly a second punch comes, his response is to switch up everything entirely mid-action, including the direction he's moving.
Once body mass is already committed in one direction, with outstretched arms, it will be difficult to change footwork and everything to another direction in time.
Easy when done slowly and relaxed.
Not back away, but to the side away, which does give up distance.Quote:
---The lead foot may step off to the side during the "T step" for better angling. But it is not moving back away from the opponent and giving up distance.
If his lead foot is at the center point of the circle, and rear foot along the perimeter, as he steps his lead foot to the side, and slides his rear foot backward, the whole circle, his body mass, is actually being moved away from the opponent.Quote:
This is moving away from the incoming right round punch, and backward along the perimeter of the circle.
---You do realize, that since the perimeter is circular and in front of the opponent, one side of your body can move back as the other side moves forward?
He's not pivoting and using rotational force, but stepping away with both feet, taking his body mass in the opposite direction of the straight punch. Meaning it's all arm.Quote:
---You pointed out yourself that the perimeter and therefore the way he is moving is circular. So if his body mass appears to swing back at one point, it is on a circular arc and is coming around to power the punch. That's how you use a "T step."
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/p...psppeu04za.gif
Here's the 1-2.Quote:
The result is he's affording the opponent ample space to adjust and continue attacking,
---Possibly. But the whole point in flanking like this is to reach a position where it is easy for you to continue to attack but hard for the opponent to continue to attack. Just look at the awkward position his opponent would have to attack from. And one advantage to leaving this space, is that it allows space to kick, or to further adjust the angle with footwork if needed, etc.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps2xdgpac9.pnghttp://i411.photobucket.com/albums/p...psjka5oi1j.png
Doesn't look awkward or difficult to attack from at all. It's a power stance with hips directed straight at him. It's more awkward for Phil to do anything from the position he put himself in, moving backward all duck footed waiting to be taken over.
If either of them are to kick, the attacker is the one with the better angle, stance, momentum, and obvious target to kick.
If the ideal is to get further around the opponent, well, it didn't even work too well in a slow demo.
What's to stop the opponent from taking advantage of it? He has not been affected in any way.Quote:
And that big gap that you are seeing is very difficult for the opponent to take advantage of. And one should immediately "fill the gap" with a counter attack.
If he kept both hands up, they'd still at best be at equal advantage, or he'd be at more advantage.
He's either able to, or he isn't. And he is, so it's not really a matter of opinion.Quote:
, if you allow so much space, you're not really in a much safer or superior position. The opponent is still easily able to adjust and continue throwing power shots at that distance.
--I guess that's a matter of opinion! Most TWC people would disgree with you!
But as we see, nothing has been done to set the opponent up. His facing, balance, arms, or anything has not been affected. He's able to continue just the same.Quote:
As you continue to block and circle away, it's just a matter of time. If you don't affect their balance or facing, just slapping at that one arm isn't going to keep you safe.
---True. But again, you don't just keep blocking and circling away. That is just to set up the opponent for your counter.
Which is obviously the main problem I have with it.Quote:
TWC sometimes seems to put an over-emphasis on staying out at that middle punching range rather than just "running over" the opponent and dominating them completely!
If suddenly a second punch comes, his response is to switch up everything entirely mid-action, including the direction he's moving.
---Watch the video. He doesn't have to switch up everything when the second punch comes. He is planning on the second coming!
Once body mass is already committed in one direction, with outstretched arms, it will be difficult to change footwork and everything to another direction in time.
---No it's not. Because he is moving off the line of that second punch. Again, watch the video. Phil isn't having any problems.
Not back away, but to the side away, which does give up distance.
---No it doesn't! Just look at the **** video! If you are following the perimeter of a circle you are not moving further away from the center. The opponent is at the center.
If his lead foot is at the center point of the circle, and rear foot along the perimeter, as he steps his lead foot to the side, and slides his rear foot backward, the whole circle, his body mass, is actually being moved away from the opponent.
---The opponent is at the center of the circle. BOTH of Phil's feet are on the perimeter of the circle.
He's not pivoting and using rotational force, but stepping away with both feet, taking his body mass in the opposite direction of the straight punch. Meaning it's all arm.
---Nope. Are we watching the same video? Look at his lead hip. The lead hip moves towards the opponent as he punches.
Doesn't look awkward or difficult to attack from at all. It's a power stance with hips directed straight at him. It's more awkward for Phil to do anything from the position he put himself in, moving backward all duck footed waiting to be taken over.
---Again....the whole point of the T step is that you are moving off the line of the original attack. Look at the images you posted. Phil is NOT where the opponent expected him to be and his punch is off-target. For him to redirect that second punch he would have to change his balance and shift his body, which is more difficult to do.
If either of them are to kick, the attacker is the one with the better angle, stance, momentum, and obvious target to kick.
---Geez! Look at the picture you posted! After that initial punch Phil is no longer standing in front of the opponent. The opponent is no longer facing towards Phil. Again, I get the distinct impression here you are just trying to argue for arguments sake alone!
He's either able to, or he isn't. And he is, so it's not really a matter of opinion.
---You are always so certain of your opinions. Unwilling to see the other side of things. That's why nearly every discussion with you turns into an argument. So you just go on believing whatever you want to believe. We seem to be looking at two different videos. :rolleyes:
He first shows his intention is to enter while trapping the lead arm, stepping in toward the opponent.
That's against a single shot.
When the 1-2 comes, he no longer steps in toward the opponent, but to the side away from the opponent.
Yes, that is a big change. He cannot move his feet faster than a punch, especially to change directions by the time the incoming punch registers when his intent and body mass was moving forward.
Works fine in slow-mo.
He's not having any problems because it's a very slow demo and he knows what is coming.Quote:
Once body mass is already committed in one direction, with outstretched arms, it will be difficult to change footwork and everything to another direction in time.
---No it's not. Because he is moving off the line of that second punch. Again, watch the video. Phil isn't having any problems.
You have not understood me.Quote:
Not back away, but to the side away, which does give up distance.
---No it doesn't! Just look at the **** video! If you are following the perimeter of a circle you are not moving further away from the center. The opponent is at the center.
I said a circle of his own footwork, with the lead foot being the center point. This is in reference to his own feet and body, not the opponent.
Whenever he moves the lead foot, it moves his circle about, and the rear foot adjusts facing like a rudder.
Whenever he moves both feet off to the side, that moves his body away from the opponent, and gives up space.
You can see this by watching where his spine goes in space. The body follows the feet. It is away from the opponent.
If he had a colored circle beneath him like the active player on Madden NFL or something, you'd clearly see him moving away from the opponent.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/p...psppeu04za.gif
You have redefined the circle I was using to illustrate my point.Quote:
If his lead foot is at the center point of the circle, and rear foot along the perimeter, as he steps his lead foot to the side, and slides his rear foot backward, the whole circle, his body mass, is actually being moved away from the opponent.
---The opponent is at the center of the circle. BOTH of Phil's feet are on the perimeter of the circle.
We might not be! Or you're not following my explanation.Quote:
He's not pivoting and using rotational force, but stepping away with both feet, taking his body mass in the opposite direction of the straight punch. Meaning it's all arm.
---Nope. Are we watching the same video? Look at his lead hip. The lead hip moves towards the opponent as he punches.
His body mass is moving away from the opponent, because both feet are stepping away.
The second one was a bit of a round punch, and it wasn't off-target. It was just blocked.Quote:
---Again....the whole point of the T step is that you are moving off the line of the original attack. Look at the images you posted. Phil is NOT where the opponent expected him to be and his punch is off-target. For him to redirect that second punch he would have to change his balance and shift his body, which is more difficult to do.
The opponent's balance and facing were not at all compromised. He can easily continue chasing Phil who is running away backward and duck footed.
Not really a big change in position. Still in front of him. Wouldn't take much adjustment to speak of.Quote:
If either of them are to kick, the attacker is the one with the better angle, stance, momentum, and obvious target to kick.
---Geez! Look at the picture you posted! After that initial punch Phil is no longer standing in front of the opponent. The opponent is no longer facing towards Phil.
Right kick to the cojones would be an easy follow up while Phil is busy stepping duck footed backward and blocking arms.
Are you telling me if you threw a 1-2 combo at someone and they sidestepped ever so slightly off center, that would totally throw you off and you wouldn't be able to easily adjust and continue throwing power shots given the space and range the opponent has afforded you??Quote:
He's either able to, or he isn't. And he is, so it's not really a matter of opinion.
---You are always so certain of your opinions. Unwilling to see the other side of things. That's why nearly every discussion with you turns into an argument. So you just go on believing whatever you want to believe. We seem to be looking at two different videos. :rolleyes:
The guy has not been affected in any way whatsoever beyond having his opponent a couple degrees left of where he was. What's the big difficulty?
Interesting that the word believe has been used. This is all very good tech but what has been your experience? People here are so often long on reading their manuals out loud but don't share enough what happened when they did it...Or tried it.Every one here is exceptionally well trained yet seem loathe to share their experiences. Do any of us actually Frikin fight???
Not in my post.
Maybe you don't.Quote:
This is all very good tech but what has been your experience? People here are so often long on reading their manuals out loud but don't share enough what happened when they did it...Or tried it.Every one here is exceptionally well trained yet seem loathe to share their experiences. Do any of us actually Frikin fight???
I don't have any reason to make assumptions about people I don't know because they post on forums.
I just don't use this method for the various flaws I see with it, which I've tried to share my thoughts on. So?
no, no... That's totally cool. All I'm asking is pepper the science with ancidot. I read everything you guys write. It's always special when the information is shared with a tru life reference. Including fail. I like to fight. There's no shame in loosing a fight. We chunners are often not to keen on investing in combat lose. That, iny opinion is the main weakness of VT today. Unlike or ancestors who seemed to gleefully wade in to combat and win or loose there's something to share
Hello,
I think that the reality of todays world makes fighting more dangerous in many ways and often represents a lose-lose no matter what.
In todays world you are likely to face multiple opponents and often a weapon. Also, even if you win you can be sued and still lose even if you were not the aggressor. When you consider that a person can break into your home and sue you if they injure themselves, fighting often offers similar potential issues.
To me it seems the smarter avenue is to avoid confrontation when at all possible.
Now as to making something work in a real situation; my opinion is that it is often not the technique or the skill of the person which is the determining factor but the mental aspect. Kind of like the old saying that "it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog".
Many of us today may practice our art for recreation or part time, I highly doubt that most people are training with the expectation of needing to use their skills in real life. When I used to train Pekiti there were some really scary dudes and I told them if I thought I would be facing them on the street for real I would train differently. I did train for reality, at least I think I did, and have had one or two occasions to use what I trained as a Police Office and a Correctional Officer before that, but not as much as some people think.
You want to know what helped me?? Being able to take a hit. I would say that is one of the biggest failings most martial artists have. It is also one reason that Boxers are so good at "fighting" they are used to taking punishment and working through that to continue onward.
Much of what I do in Silat will not work if you do not apply it fully. No, I am not saying it is too dangerous for the street or that type of crap. What I am saying is that if you do not train to fully apply your techniques then they often will not work. The difference between applying a lock and taking someone to the ground and stopping halfway. Also, if you train halfway you will fight halfway. This does not mean you need to be hurting each other in training but you have to train to endure some pain.
I know Phil and he has fought and trained some others to fight as well. I also do not do things the same way he does but he has found some viable approaches that work for him and those he has trained. I think that in person he may do things a little differently than in a demo.
I think that if one trains to crowd your opponent while keeping structure you can make a lot of things work. Having said that, you will need to be able to take some punishment and keep on going if you opt to go that route. A lot of things can go wrong if your opponent knows what they are doing but if you can drive in and disrupt their balance and keep the pressure on...............................
Of course it is easy to type something and say it can work and I understand the desire to validate theory with actual application. However, in many cases that actual application is not needed or desired and can result in criminal charges even when you act in self defense. Just throwing that out there for what it's worth.
Good points Dave. And I really took Happy Tiger to mean sparring more than all-out kick ass fighting. But I could be wrong! But absolutely TWC, and Phil in particular, have trained guys that have done very well in sparring competitions. While some seem to want to criticize the footwork in TWC, it works in sparring situations! Not all Wing Chun lineages can claim the same successes. Keeping that distance that LFJ commented on is not a vulnerability when done correctly and can actually help avoid a shoot and takedown. Now some will argue that "sparring is not fighting." But as you pointed out, it's much better to avoid "real fights" and few of us training our marital arts are ever going to be in a "real fight". But sparring is something everyone could and should be doing. Its just rather surprising that some lineages of Wing Chun can talk all about how great they are and better than everyone else, while at the same time having very very little sparring footage out on the internet to actually show how effective they are.
Well, like most TWC guys, there is a large disconnect between what you all say you're doing, and what you're actually doing.
It is very plain to see in the slow-mo gif I provided, that he's not circling around the opponent, but taking linear sidesteps away from him perpendicular to the his advances.
He's not arriving at any blind side or superior position, and he's moving body mass in a separate direction from his punch.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/p...psavosu6gf.gif
It may or may not be a vulnerability. Depends on the opponent. I think it has more cons than pros, though, and is quite open to a shoot and takedown, since he's moving backward in a parallel, duck footed stance while the opponent is closing in.
Wow! You are working so hard at arguing with me and what's in that video that you can't even see your own markings accurately! Geez! :rolleyes:
When Phil does his Bong his lead foot is well behind your red/green cross-hatch. When he does his punch his lead foot is in front of that red/green cross-hatch. As I said. Both his feet are on the perimeter of a circle, with the opponent standing near the center of that circle. He is not taking linear sidesteps. He is stepping along the perimeter of the circle as your own illustration clearly shows. When he makes the second part of the step after the Bong, his hips are moving forward with the punch as his body mass moves around the perimeter of the circle. Again, just look at your own illustration. When starts his Bong his lead hip is at your back green line. When he does his punch his rear hip is clearly closer to your front green line. Nice illustration. Is supports what I have been saying. You are just working hard to deny what is actually happening in the video just for the sake of arguing.
And I would like to point out the NUMEROUS times people have commented on things they see in Phillip Bayer's videos, to which you have replied things like "you don't study the system so you don't know what you are looking at", and "you don't know WSLVT, so you cannot comment on what is going on in the video", and "you aren't seeing what's really happening in the video".....I'm paraphrasing, of course. ;)
Precisely because he sidestepped across the incoming red attack line.
The green lines mark the paths his feet take. They are not circular. They are straight out to the side, perpendicular to the opponent's line of attack.Quote:
Both his feet are on the perimeter of a circle, with the opponent standing near the center of that circle. He is not taking linear sidesteps.
He adjusts facing ever so slightly, because he has stepped away and wouldn't be able to reach anymore otherwise.Quote:
When he makes the second part of the step after the Bong, his hips are moving forward with the punch as his body mass moves around the perimeter of the circle.
But his steps and body mass are going perpendicularly away from the target, not around a circle.
WTF? No, it's not.Quote:
When starts his Bong his lead hip is at your back green line. When he does his punch his rear hip is clearly closer to your front green line.
I should have extended the lines further, or added another for his hips, so your brain could handle it.
His feet are stepping directly sideward along those lines. His hips and spine are going where his feet take him.
He is not moving forward toward the opponent at all, nor around a circle.
Exactly. The thing is not what they say it is, though.
They always claim to be stepping forward on an angle while closing distance, but videos show they usually step sideways away from the opponent and drag their rear feet backward while maintaining distance.
I don't doubt someone can make this work some time. I just don't prefer it, due to the flaws I've outlined.
I wasted almost 7 years on TWC , I cannot describe how much I regret that.
Hey, I never thought of that. I live in Canada. Possibly the last contry on earth were you can get into a hard fight without likely getting your head blown off...Here or maybe Russia.they seem to enjoy a good fight followed by comradary
This thread is all about 'truth is in the eye of the beholder' hahaha
At 0.53, he used a right Bong to deal with his opponent's right punch. That is wrong.
All while showing him following the perimeter of a circle without moving further away from the opponent. Funny how that works. :cool:
Please keep this exchange in mind the next time someone explains what they don't like about a Phillip Bayer video and you start down the line of "you clearly don't know what you are looking at because you don't know WSLVT"!!!
Ya know what's so Frikin cool about bong sau.? It's its position in the VT periodic table. It is a kind of interchange structure. The likes of which are both subtle and gross. I've known bong sau to be as a puff of smoke. Or a fork lift of total structure domination.
I can't think of another VT structure as mesmerizing and dividing
Sorry but I see Phils feet moving in a straight line as shown by the green lines in the clip.
I do not however see any movement backwards.
From the clip it appears that Phil is stepping off to one side while the opponent advances or steps forward.
Phils position remains relatively the same with the exception of stepping to the side.
He does not retreat but the opponent does step forward which lessens the distance which is offset by the side step.
I also think it is a bit of a reach to say Phil is using circling in the example. The clip would seem to indicate that his feet remain relatively the same using the two green lines in the clip. He moves side-wards but does so in a straight line.