I thought this article had some good points on training that applies to martial arts, and is germane to recent discussions:
https://breakingmuscle.com/learn/tra...pply-it-part-3
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I thought this article had some good points on training that applies to martial arts, and is germane to recent discussions:
https://breakingmuscle.com/learn/tra...pply-it-part-3
You need to understand a method before looking for counterarguments to it out of spite.
You know most of those who I have met or read about of a high level of skill hardly ever argued with others.
If you are secure in your approach then so be it, no need or benefit of always trying to put differing views down.
LFJ, I am going to step outside of my normal response for a moment and ask you something, and this does relate to Training so it is relevant to this thread.
You have made statements that you do not train applications, not in forms or apparently elsewhere in your approach to WC/VT/WT.
So my question is:
When you practice Chi Sau, which from previous videos posted, it appears that you utilize the same movements other Yip Man lineages utilize.
So, that being the case, are you not actually training to apply techniques/applications within the framework of Chi Sau to respond to specific techniques.
In other words aren't you training to respond to specific actions or energy with specific responses? While I agree that there can be modifications and your response can and should vary depending on what is given, but don't you need to know and learn how to respond with something specific? At least in the beginning?
If not then please explain what you are using Chi Sau for if not training to respond in a preset pattern with some variations.
Chi sau is not fighting or a simulation of fighting. So learning applications from chi sau is a non-sequitur from the point of view of WSL VT. You can't fight from chi sau because the opponent can leave chi sau whenever they like. It is an artificial drill relying upon cooperation and designed to teach certain things relevant to fighting.
A similar method is "grinding arms" in some other southern chinese MA, although chi sau much more developed and flexible, and of course teaching aspects of a completely different system
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYD8Iz7rgwM
Okay, let's try to get an answer to something simple. ;)
When you guys do Chi Sau (which no one is saying is fighting) do you use Taun, Bong and other "techniques"?
Do you ever use these "techniques" in fighting?
If so then I would submit that you train applications. :)
I wonder if you guys practice "Empty Chi"
Seems like getting any real answers is impossible, like trying to grasp mist.
So you guys train "attributes" but you utilize the same shapes as others doing WC but you do it in some totally different way.
Of course this should make all of your guys awesome and unbeatable...................I am waiting to see where all of your fighters are :rolleyes:
Your group makes attacks and derides TWC, which I do not train, yet who do you point to that stands tall and represents your approach in combat?
In TWC I would ask have any of your guys ever sparred with Rick Spain or any of his students?
Anyone ever crossed hands with Emin?
When one does not know something or is unable to explain it then it can lead others to question whether they are lying or just not smart enough to explain things for others to understand. Now, the inability to understand something could be the fault of the person asking the question. However, it can also be the fault of the one trying to provide the answer.
Taun is one of the seeds of Wing Chun. While it does teach attributes it is also used in application.
You are welcome to say that it does not however, I would then aks you to show any video where you guys actually spar yet fail to use any of the commonly recognized "techniques" of Wing Chun. I highly doubt you can do this. Instead I expect more of the same vague "we don't use applications or techniques, we use attributes.............I dare say if that is true it is highly unlikely any of you can use your approach for real. In other words, if you were to try and use your system you would have to use techniques or applications or you would simply get your butt handed to you for trying to use just "attributes".
Of course it would be easy to prove me wrong. You have asked for clips showing other using their approach in sparring. I submit you show the same thing. There is one caveat though, since you guys don't use applications or techniques nor do you train to use such, I would like to see a clip of any of your guys fighting and wining without the use of a single "application".
I won't hold my breath waiting as I know you can't produce anything within those parameters.
Good Luck!!! :rolleyes:
I am happy to try and explain to you, I am sorry for any short answers; I am wary of KPM who is a troll hanging around this forum at the moment.
I don't think there is any need for sarcasm.Quote:
So you guys train "attributes" but you utilize the same shapes as others doing WC but you do it in some totally different way.
Of course this should make all of your guys awesome and unbeatable...................I am waiting to see where all of your fighters are :rolleyes:
I am not deriding anyone. But neither am I idiotically enthusiastic about training methodologies I don't agree with. I am happy to live and let live as far as TWC is concerned. Unfortunately KPM is using TWC as a device to troll LFJ in a long argument spilling over from the snowflake-infested martial talk forum. It would probably take too long to explain the ins and outs of this boring conflict here and now, so I guess you will need to approach with an open mind if you want to converse.Quote:
Your group makes attacks and derides TWC, which I do not train, yet who do you point to that stands tall and represents your approach in combat?
In TWC I would ask have any of your guys ever sparred with Rick Spain or any of his students?
Anyone ever crossed hands with Emin?
Many people from WT and TWC have come to WSL VT. Sparring has happened. My opinion is what it is.
What do you want me to explain?Quote:
When one does not know something or is unable to explain it then it can lead others to question whether they are lying or just not smart enough to explain things for others to understand. Now, the inability to understand something could be the fault of the person asking the question. However, it can also be the fault of the one trying to provide the answer.
Not in WSL VT. Tan is punch training, not a technique to apply in fightingQuote:
Taun is one of the seeds of Wing Chun. While it does teach attributes it is also used in application
It seems as if you have joined KPM in his trolling? I hope not.Quote:
You are welcome to say that it does not however, I would then aks you to show any video where you guys actually spar yet fail to use any of the commonly recognized "techniques" of Wing Chun. I highly doubt you can do this. Instead I expect more of the same vague "we don't use applications or techniques, we use attributes.............I dare say if that is true it is highly unlikely any of you can use your approach for real. In other words, if you were to try and use your system you would have to use techniques or applications or you would simply get your butt handed to you for trying to use just "attributes"
Of course it would be easy to prove me wrong. You have asked for clips showing other using their approach in sparring. I submit you show the same thing. There is one caveat though, since you guys don't use applications or techniques nor do you train to use such, I would like to see a clip of any of your guys fighting and wining without the use of a single "application".
I won't hold my breath waiting as I know you can't produce anything within those parameters.
Good Luck!!! :rolleyes:
The group I train with doesn't release sparring clips for public consumption. Here is a clip from a closely related group:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbI1Q1j-d80
Guy B,
Believe it or not I am not interested in trolling or even arguing.
Just seems like there has been a bit of implications that a certain lineage is full of crap.
Everyone is welcome to their opinion but it is kind of unfair to lump an entire lineage into a specific crap pile.
If you research my posts you will find that I have been saying for years that each lineage has someone who can make that approach work for them.
Thus, every approach can be valid.
I do what I do because I like it and found it worked for my needs.
I like the forward energy and fairly constant attack in the clip.
Also would seem to reinforce the idea that a few core methods can be applied fairly well.
If you prefer to have a discussion offline then feel free to email or PM me.
Email is probably best to discuss anything of length.
I can promise to keep anything discussed private if that is your wish.
A little bit of light sparring in this clip, starts about 1.22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6YVmNnuSIA
People can train whatever they like as far as I am concerned. They are not me, I am not them. What they do is their choice. But I will not sugar coat my opinion of training methodologies. If I disagree with them, and you ask me about it, then I will say so. I believe that LFJ is of like mind on this matter. KPM knows this, hence his cynical decision to use TWC as a device to troll the forum. I feel bad about this because I have no particular issue with TWC and and happy if other people are happy doing it. I feel particularly bad that Phil was dragged here, probably due to a message from KPM, and made to feel under attack.
I don't share your belief that every approach is valid. Truth is not relative and every approach is not equally valuable. I think some MA systems are irredeemably stupid. I wouldn't say so though unless you asked me. But I wouldn't lie if you did.Quote:
If you research my posts you will find that I have been saying for years that each lineage has someone who can make that approach work for them.
Thus, every approach can be valid.
I don't know what you do but I am glad you are satisfied with itQuote:
I do what I do because I like it and found it worked for my needs
Good, glad it helpedQuote:
I like the forward energy and fairly constant attack in the clip.
Also would seem to reinforce the idea that a few core methods can be applied fairly well.
PM any question you want to ask. Would prefer not to give info to KPM. LFJ probably a better source of info than me if you want good technical detail, but I can cover basics.Quote:
If you prefer to have a discussion offline then feel free to email or PM me.
Email is probably best to discuss anything of length.
I can promise to keep anything discussed private if that is your wish.
Dave, I don't appreciate being repeatedly referred to as a "troll" for simply trying to carry on a productive discussion as you are doing now. Do we not have any standards in this forum?
Back to the topic of training......since martials arts is undoubtedly a skill we are all trying to master, I thought this was another good article:
https://blog.todoist.com/2015/08/11/...any-new-skill/
This one is pretty good as well. It describes the stages of skill acquisition:
http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpt...ll-individuals
I can appreciate that.
Everyone knows who they are so I should not need to direct this to individuals.
We are supposed to be mature so let's keep it civil going forward.
No more name calling or the posts will be deleted.
This goes both ways gentleman.
Nothing further needs to be said, let the past stay in the past and move forward instead.
Maybe we could call this "controlled targeted sparring"? Not really what most people are referring to when they want to see a sparring clip. Problem one is that he is sparring one of his students. So of course the student is not really trying to "give as good as he gets." This could be on purpose for the camera, or simply subconscious due to the fact that he is sparring his instructor. The second problem is that the student is not doing anything outside the realm of WSLVT. So it is a very artificial set up because if you ever had to fight, it is doubtful it would be against another skilled Wing Chun guy. So it really doesn't highlight what Michael Kurth can do against a more typical fighter. Now I think Michael Kurth is really good! There are some impressive things in the clip. I just wouldn't call it real sparring.
Jai Harmon is the only guy I can think of right now from the WSLVT lineage with real sparring clips up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA7rj7b_sM0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS-PuD3iQiI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFOwFLf3k0o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbKfjS1aF_s
Jai is a good fighter. But I don't see any super special Wing Chun here, do you? He has a good low sweep. But wait a minute....that's an "application" isn't it?? ;) I see lots of Pak Sau and Wing Chun blast (chain punching). I don't think I saw a single Bong/Lop combination to set anything up. And you see a LOT of Bong/Lop combinations in just about every clip of WSLVT training. And....I know, I know!......Chi Sau is not fighting and what they are training in those clips is not meant to be applied! But still, one would tend to think that if there is so much emphasis put on the attributes developed from that repeated Bong/Lop exchange structure....that something resembling it would show up in sparring. But that's just me.
I thought of someone else! Jerry Yeung is another WSLVT lineage guy that has some good clips up.
This one is labeled sparring, but isn't really. Some light Gor Sau work with one of his students:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_xCxE3rCF4
Some light sparring here starting at 1:30. But not much to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fqwNGUq60I
Jerry likes to reach out and use the "neck pulling hand" from the dummy form. Does that count as an "application"??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUMyu5tNBtk
That's about it.
When I spar I go local boxing gym (or I was , they closed recently ) , anyway , this doesn't look like sparring , but the thing I did notice is that movements on the video are so fast , like from old Charile Chaplin's movies .I mean , it is ok to be fast but this ...
Understand that all will not train the same way.
No need to be derisive just cause you do not do things the same way.
Continuing to post deriding comments may be considered trolling.
Basically , I have to agree with everything and cannot say what I thinlk? Of course everyone has the right to do whatever they like ,I was called a fool for saying the same thing , but I also have a right not to agree with eberything , or maybe not . Speed of the video is obviously increased , I just noticed that ,that is all. If stating the obvius is trolling maybe I should not comment anything at all ...
Sensitive are we?
Did not realize I put your name in my post, will have to see if it is hiding:confused: somewhere, perhaps in stealth mode???
Was not directed to you per se but if you think the shoe fits................
It is possible to voice an opinion without deriding others.
Of course that does sometimes require skill and self control
Now I'll bet you will say I am accusing you of not having self control......but it is not directed at you per se.
Just happens you replied to a post and I replied to you.
If not applicable to you then don't take as directed at you.
Of course only you know your motivation so............................
No. The "same movements" have completely different meanings.
Not as a fight simulation.Quote:
In other words aren't you training to respond to specific actions or energy with specific responses?
Not as a fight simulation.Quote:
don't you need to know and learn how to respond with something specific? At least in the beginning?
Attribute development, like alignment, balance, distance, timing, etc..Quote:
If not then please explain what you are using Chi Sau for if not training to respond in a preset pattern with some variations.
Unbeatable because we train attributes through chi-sau? You are not being logical.
Who?Quote:
In TWC I would ask have any of your guys ever sparred with Rick Spain or any of his students?
Ex-WT students, of which there are literally hundreds who have switched, including high-ranking instructors, same as from TWC.Quote:
Anyone ever crossed hands with Emin?
I don't know any other system that can say the same. That alone would be enough to pique my interest and have me traveling to the nearest VT school to see what it's all about.
VT is best experienced and understood in person.Quote:
When one does not know something or is unable to explain it then it can lead others to question whether they are lying or just not smart enough to explain things for others to understand. Now, the inability to understand something could be the fault of the person asking the question. However, it can also be the fault of the one trying to provide the answer.
We tell you taan-sau is a training tool and doesn't show up in fighting, but you think we will in fact use it as a block or something?Quote:
Taun is one of the seeds of Wing Chun. While it does teach attributes it is also used in application.
You are welcome to say that it does not however, I would then aks you to show any video where you guys actually spar yet fail to use any of the commonly recognized "techniques" of Wing Chun. I highly doubt you can do this.
Why?
No. In pun-sau, taan and fuk are antagonistic training tools for developing VT punching. Neither are "techniques" for fighting. Bong ensures squared facing while training the punches, and helps prevent overturning for example in seung-ma/teui-ma drills.
We don't fight with both arms equally extended like this, and none of this will show up as "techniques" in fighting.
Taan-sau trains the punch. We punch. We don't use taan-sau to block or anything.Quote:
Instead I expect more of the same vague "we don't use applications or techniques, we use attributes.............I dare say if that is true it is highly unlikely any of you can use your approach for real. In other words, if you were to try and use your system you would have to use techniques or applications or you would simply get your butt handed to you for trying to use just "attributes".
You are making the same assessment from ignorance that KPM made.
If you don't understand a training method you have not experienced or even seen, you are not justified in making an assessment on its efficacy.
Only because they already have such clips online. I'm just asking to have things pointed out to me that I don't see in what is already publicly available.Quote:
You have asked for clips showing other using their approach in sparring.
I have not asked anyone to make sparring clips to satisfy me personally. I don't think anyone would care to do that.
Of course? These guys do fight each other and leave training bloodied up quite often. The student is being shut down, but not for not trying!
MK has earned a reputation as a fighter in Germany and has put his butt on the line for his VT numerous times against people of various backgrounds (other KF styles, MMA, etc..) who have come to test him out.Quote:
The second problem is that the student is not doing anything outside the realm of WSLVT. So it is a very artificial set up because if you ever had to fight, it is doubtful it would be against another skilled Wing Chun guy. So it really doesn't highlight what Michael Kurth can do against a more typical fighter.
Sean, who posts here some times, has witnessed those matches, and I have also personally met some of MK's non-VT opponents who said he was the scariest person they'd ever fought. Threw all their arsenal at him, and he completely shut them down. That's what good VT does.
Don't believe it? Ask around in Germany, or go give it a shot.
Neither of these guys are from the same line, and you know that. You have been told.
A pretty useless application, since he rarely accomplishes anything by it and doesn't know what to do once he gets it on. Looks like a display of dominance, more than anything.Quote:
Jerry likes to reach out and use the "neck pulling hand" from the dummy form. Does that count as an "application"??
MK has earned a reputation as a fighter in Germany and has put his butt on the line for his VT numerous times against people of various backgrounds (other KF styles, MMA, etc..) who have come to test him out.
---Great! Those are the clips I would like to see! Why are none of them up online?
Neither of these guys are from the same line, and you know that. You have been told.
---Are they not both WSLVT???? Are you now saying that Phillip Bayer's version of WSLVT is the only "real" thing?
A pretty useless application, since he rarely accomplishes anything by it and doesn't know what to do once he gets it on. Looks like a display of dominance, more than anything.
---But an "application" nonetheless. So what it comes down to is that we have video of WSL himself teaching applications from the forms. We have video of various people from different branches of the WSLVT lineage doing applications. So maybe it is Phillip Bayer that came up with this idea that WSLVT has absolutely NO applications??? Realize I'm not saying that as a bad thing. Systems should grow and evolve and each prominent teacher should use their own insight. I'm pointing this out as a very possible explanation for what you have been saying for awhile on different forums and what we actually see on-line. You keep saying go and study WSLVT if I really want to know. But apparently I couldn't go to David Petersen, Gary Lam, Wang Xi Ping, Jai Harmon, or Jerry Yeung. And it seems that list just keeps getting longer and it is seeming like you really mean I need to go and train with a Phillip Bayer student. And you tend to try and generalize what you write about as being "real" Ip Man VT", when it doesn't even seem to generalize to all WSLVT. There just seems to be a disconnect here somewhere. And I know....you are going to point out to me that I have been told numerous times that the disconnect is because Ip Man taught only a very few (it seems only WSL) his "real" and complete system and all the others either didn't stay around long enough, weren't good enough students, or have gone off and filled in gaps due to incomplete knowledge. I'm just still not sure I buy that.
Why don't you ask him?
Just different, and I didn't even mentioned PB.Quote:
---Are they not both WSLVT???? Are you now saying that Phillip Bayer's version of WSLVT is the only "real" thing?
And we have a guy (hint: you) who has no idea what he's talking about.Quote:
So what it comes down to is that we have video of WSL himself teaching applications from the forms. We have video of various people from different branches of the WSLVT lineage doing applications.
Everyone and every system trains applications to a certain degree, much like one learns the alphabet then words then sentences, etc..
In the end, the proof of the validity of ANY training methodology is in the pudding and that "pudding" for Martial arts is VS other trained Martial artist actively trying to beat your ass.
I understand that you are probably trying to see both sides and defuse the argument but WSL VT doesn't train applications. There is no "if this then this" stimulus response type training. There is no alphabet then sentences type approach in terms of the forms and drills. It is a very simple concept based system.
Please direct your crying in the direction of Michael Kurth. I don't speak for him. Given that he isn't posting gym sparring on the internet at the moment I doubt that your anger and frustration will make him change his mind. He will probably just invite you to come and see for yourself.
There are WSL VT teachers not from PB who are teaching the same thing. It is strange that you always focus on the ones doing something different.Quote:
Are they not both WSLVT???? Are you now saying that Phillip Bayer's version of WSLVT is the only "real" thing?
Gary Lam, WZP and WKL are teaching their own thing. We have discussed the others. There must be a reason you don't want to accept standard WSL VT explanations from people doing standard WSL VT and I think it is because you are too scared to entertain the idea that you need to change what you do. There can't be many other viable reasons at this point. Either try it, or don't try it and forget about it. Going on about it constantly just shows how much it bothers you.Quote:
So what it comes down to is that we have video of WSL himself teaching applications from the forms. We have video of various people from different branches of the WSLVT lineage doing applications. You keep saying go and study WSLVT if I really want to know. But apparently I couldn't go to David Petersen, Gary Lam, Wang Xi Ping, Jai Harmon, or Jerry Yeung. And you tend to try and generalize what you write about as being "real" Ip Man VT", when it doesn't even seem to generalize to all WSLVT.
No, it is standard WSL VT which is the same as YM VT.Quote:
So maybe it is Phillip Bayer that came up with this idea that WSLVT has absolutely NO applications???
The disconnect is that you are a fundamentally dishonest person and cannot even tell the truth to yourself. I can't help you with this, I am sorryQuote:
There just seems to be a disconnect here somewhere
CorrectQuote:
Ip Man taught only a very few..all the others either didn't stay around long enough, weren't good enough students, or have gone off and filled in gaps due to incomplete knowledge
If you are making a fist, you are learning an alphabet and if you are taught how to use it and where, you are learning a sentence.
It's all fine and dandy THINKING you are doing something special and unique, as long as you realize that THINKING something doesn't make it so.
Correct!Quote:
The disconnect is that you are a fundamentally dishonest person
And how many times has this strawman been taken down on the other forum? Several dozen, easy!
Yet, here he comes again back to singling out PB for some reason to pit him against other well-known instructors.
A very dishonest and divisive person...
The point is, this sort of thinking doesn't exist in WSLVT:
Alphabet = techniques from forms
Words = 1:1 application drills
Sentences = use in fighting
I don't think anything is "special" about WSLVT, but it is a different approach.Quote:
It's all fine and dandy THINKING you are doing something special and unique, as long as you realize that THINKING something doesn't make it so.
Hogwash.
Doesn't matter if you THINK this sort of thinking doesn't exist because it quite clearly does.
You can call it "concept based dish washing" and it won't change what it is.
Seems like you guys are simply doing what everyone else is and calling it something else, which is fine but don't think that it makes WHAT you are doing anything special.
That said, I will give you the "different approach".