Having been motivated by the discussion on martial talk I thought I would post some clips containing some ideas
Enjoy:
First one from about 0.45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcfqvDzkc8s
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Having been motivated by the discussion on martial talk I thought I would post some clips containing some ideas
Enjoy:
First one from about 0.45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcfqvDzkc8s
Second from about 0.17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tIofptD-xk
Hard to imagine a viable striking art not addressing obvious ranges of standup fighting.
Which makes it so odd that some people (most people!?) don't have any understanding of how VT works at longer range.Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
Why continue in VT if it doesn't work? :confused:
For example, from martial talk:
All KPM is admitting here is that he doesn't have functional VT as soon as he loses contact with his opponent, i.e. his VT is not functional in the slightest, since loss of contact is almost guaranteed in fighting. Throws a lot of light on various other arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by KPM
Hopefully those guys arguing on the other forum will be able to get some idea of the WSL VT approach in this thread. I think the well might be a bit poisoned on that forum?
The other problem is if you are outclassed at close-range, you just get beat?
With no recourse at longer-range to find a better tactical entry, or to protect yourself on the outside, you either just get beat or put your head down and try to grapple someone who's already giving you a beating. Forward pressure! No retreat!
Most Wing Chun people would likely be getting the beating for trying to stick to arms that just want to punch them in the first place. So, it's probably not going to go too well.
What an intelligent method not to consider common ranges of standup and to have no recovery method in case things go wrong at your preferred range!
I think all this shows is that wing chun based styles with this idea are broken or at best have large gaps. Filling these holes with something that is not VT will obviously lead to conflicts and more problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
There is no such thing as "short" "medium" or "long" range.
This is only contact and non contact. :D
I explained there in good detail that there is a difference between having a "long range game" as Boxing does, and having a strategy for surviving at long range long enough to be able to transition to your preferred close range. I'm sure you must have read it. And yet you think those PB videos you posted show a "long range game" equivalent to what I was describing? :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by guy b.
Boxing doesn't really have a long-range game, since there's no kicking allowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by KPM
Boxing stances and footwork are vulnerable to kicks at a range where they can't land punches without leaping forward, because they don't have to worry about kicks in the sport.
VT has kicks. That's about as long-range a technique as you can get without weapons.
An opponent can be kept at bay with leg kicks, and such kicks can also be fight-enders. So, what's this that VT has no "long-range game"?
Pretty much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
I can contact a boxer with kicks where he can't reach me, yet boxing has long-range and VT doesn't?
yes he can reach you, he has a thing thing called footwork which allows him to get into the distance he wants toQuote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
and he does have a long and short range game its just build around the sports requirements and limitations
Why am i bothering you already have all the answers to your own question they are rhetorical you just like to sound off with Guy and you cant do it on the other forum so here you are !
So, you are either in contact range or not...........whether someone or a specific art trains a particular attribute does not change the "range". If a boxer decided to incorporate kicking he would have the same options of being in a position where he has the ability to make or contact or not. Really does not matter what someone trains if they can't reach you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
I find it kind of amusing that for someone who states that there are no "techniques/applications" in their approach to VT/WC/WT and that everything is really just a punch (Taun is a method of punching according to your past posts) that you are comfortable with dividing contact into various ranges. Would seem the simple approach would be to accept there is contact and non contact. Less chance of muddying the waters. Of course there can be variations of said contact but when you focus on a specific subset such as long or short etc, you really limit your responses. In a sense you can get tunnel vision and rather than simply flowing with what is given waste time trying to fit something into your understanding of range.
Bottom line is that if I can reach you and make contact my WC/WT/VT can work. If I can't reach you or make contact then it really doesn't matter since all I can do is punch or kick air.
Did I say a boxer can never reach me? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost
I said I can reach him with kicks at a distance where he can't reach me without leaping forward.
Unless someone has arms longer than my legs...
Exactly my point. It doesn't consider dangers of a kicking opponent, and is not allowed to kick.Quote:
and he does have a long and short range game its just build around the sports requirements and limitations
So, its tools at "long-range" are limited to arms' length punches, and lunging/leaping punches to extend a bit further.
It doesn't have long-range weapons like kicks, as VT does. Not a problem for the sport. But, it's silly/ignorant to say boxing has long-range while VT doesn't.
Been posting on here for years, long before ever going to that forum.Quote:
Why am i bothering you already have all the answers to your own question they are rhetorical you just like to sound off with Guy and you cant do it on the other forum so here you are !
I'm also not banned there, and have been quite active on the current threads.
Is a kick really just a punch? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
I agree with you here. These range terms were applied by KPM because he knows more about boxing than VT.Quote:
Would seem the simple approach would be to accept there is contact and non contact.
VT deals with pre-contact and contact range. But, I speak in his terms on the topic because he believes VT can't make contact without being in what he calls "chi-sau range", so to him anything more extended, yet still able to make contact is "long-range" and his WC doesn't have it.
I understand your confusion, allow me to help you out here. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
Read my post and I think you will see the context was explained to be using Taun as an example.
Kind of like how you guys keep saying there are no applications or techniques yet you train the same things as the rest of the WC/VT/WT world. Just that to you every movement, since there are no "techniques" is really "punch training". So using your mindset I wonder what trains the kicking and whether they are techniques too or some weird method of squating into your opponent. :confused:
For clarification, in my approach every kick is actually a step. It just happens that sometimes I step into or onto my opponent.
I guess you really are obsessed with KPM. That can be a dangerous thing as your reactions are kind of dictated on your perception of what you "think" he would say. In a way that gives KPM a lot of power and influence over you and your posts. It might be better to simply discuss the topic at hand and not worry about what you believe someone else may think but instead to say what you believe to be the case.
Just saying.........................:rolleyes:
WTF are you on about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
So, you edit your post to take out the part that says KPM didn't even post in this thread, after you realize you're wrong, yet leave this BS about me thinking of him and imagining what he'd say??Quote:
I guess you really are obsessed with KPM. That can be a dangerous thing as your reactions are kind of dictated on your perception of what you "think" he would say. In a way that gives KPM a lot of power and influence over you and your posts. It might be better to simply discuss the topic at hand and not worry about what you believe someone else may think but instead to say what you believe to be the case.
Just saying.........................:rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
What exactly is the part giving you trouble??
You made a reference to a Kick being a Punch (??) with the implication that I had confused or did not understand the difference between a kick and a punch.
I explained my point of reference using things you posted in the past.
Given your posting method I thought you would be able to grasp what I was saying.
I am afraid I am unsure of how to explain this so you can understand better.
as to KPM my point is that you, and Guy B, seem to be obsessed with KPM and TWC. You go out of your way to speak poorly about both every chance you get. You also tell people that they do not understand your VT and need to experience it themselves in person in order to be able to understand. Which can be a valid point. However, you then make assumptions about how others train, what they believe and their level of knowledge without the empirical evidence to support your claims.
You question someones actual experience but offer nothing to support your approach being better. You ask for video evidence yet have nothing of your own to post, for example.
No. You said everything is a punch to me. I've been talking about kicking. If a kick is not a punch, then your statement is false.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
I have the empirical evidence to support it. Anything I've ever noted about TWC can be seen on video readily available for viewing online.Quote:
make assumptions about how others train, what they believe and their level of knowledge without the empirical evidence to support your claims.
Whose experience? These are two separate issues.Quote:
You question someones actual experience but offer nothing to support your approach being better.
When have I ever asked for video? The only thing remotely close to this is having asked for things I was not seeing in available video to be pointed out to me.Quote:
You ask for video evidence yet have nothing of your own to post, for example.
I don't demand video of people.
To be clear what I posted is below and was in reference to your implying that because a Boxer does not have kicking they have no "long range" game.Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
I find it kind of amusing that for someone who states that there are no "techniques/applications" in their approach to VT/WC/WT and that everything is really just a punch (Taun is a method of punching according to your past posts) that you are comfortable with dividing contact into various ranges. Would seem the simple approach would be to accept there is contact and non contact. Less chance of muddying the waters. Of course there can be variations of said contact but when you focus on a specific subset such as long or short etc, you really limit your responses. In a sense you can get tunnel vision and rather than simply flowing with what is given waste time trying to fit something into your understanding of range.
Please read that and then explain where the falsehood comes in. I know you like to split hairs when it does not work in your favor but I would expect most people to be able to draw the correlation. If you consistently post that there are no techniques or applications and that everything is "punch training" then you should understand what I am saying. Of course, it is easier to try and deflect rather than actually post a credible response.
The discussion was about range and I have stated that there is only contact and no contact. Something to which you seem to agree as you stated your system has contact and pre contact. Yet you also posted that a viable striking art must address ranges (not an exact quote but a paraphrase). You pointed the finger at KPM as to why you answered that there were ranges and implied that the reason to do so was due to Boxing being referenced and having no long range game. Yet if there is only contact and pre contact than as long as someone can be hit they are in range.
So, let's ask a simple question and see if we can get an actual answer:
In your approach to VT are there various ranges and if so what are they?
Here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
False. A kick, for example, is not a punch.Quote:
everything is really just a punch
Ranges as defined by KPM are encompassed within contact and pre-contact.Quote:
The discussion was about range and I have stated that there is only contact and no contact. Something to which you seem to agree as you stated your system has contact and pre contact. Yet you also posted that a viable striking art must address ranges (not an exact quote but a paraphrase).
What he defines as "long-range" is the outer limit of contact range or pre-contact.
No viable striking art will fail to address that outer limit, whether or not or how they define multiple ranges.
Why would you ask a question that has already been answered?Quote:
So, let's ask a simple question and see if we can get an actual answer:
In your approach to VT are there various ranges and if so what are they?
But has it been answered?? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
Let's say I am incredibly dense and did not understand.
Can you tell me, in simple terms, whether or not your VT has various ranges and if so how they are broken down? Or do you have contact and pre-contact only? Not what KPM or someone else says but what you say in accordance with your VT.
Correct, but it does not follow that "everything is really just a punch".Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
?Quote:
Once again you need to reference KPM to try and support your statement now. You should be able to stand on your own.
There is a need to reference the person who brought up different ranges because that is who the debate is with.
Yes. I've been saying that.Quote:
But has it been answered?? :confused:
Let's say I am incredibly dense and did not understand.
Was it not clear when I said I agree; pre-contact and contact? I need not get anymore complicated than that.Quote:
Can you tell me, in simple terms, whether or not your VT has various ranges and if so how they are broken down? Or do you have contact and pre-contact only? Not what KPM or someone else says but what you say in accordance with your VT.
So then you agree that there is only contact and pre-contact but you also break down the contact phase into various ranges, is that correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by LFJ
So you have Long Range, Grappling Range etc; is that your approach or are you again speaking for someone else?
I am going to lunch soon but I am sure this can be continued.
Oh, my ex does feel I can be both dense and stubborn........I view it as a gift :D
Holy hell, dude... no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
I can humor a religious person in their worldview to reach an understanding and make some points without adopting their worldview.
Likewise, I only care about pre-contact and contact, but I can speak in terms of various ranges because I know what is meant by them.
LFJ,
You sound like you're getting frustrated.
Now imagine how others feel when you post and refuse to give any credence to their view. Or when you constantly attack someone or a particular system.
You can't expect someone to believe and accept your view is true just because you feel frustrated if they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
I don't attack people. I do critically analyze methods, and a couple people take it personally.
I think it's a problem to be so invested in a martial art that you'd sooner take personal offense than consider possibly valid criticism.
It seems particularly in the WC world people are more concerned with "face" and emotions than actual technical discussion.
These clips from PB show a few elements of VT non contact strategy which can be used at longer range. VT of course has a long range game just as boxing does, and in fact more so due to artificial limitations placed upon the sport of boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by KPM
Boxing is not compatible with VT and so I would recommend you do not try to mix the two.
Feel free to ask if you would like to learn more about VT tactics at longer range.
Contact and pre-contact onlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Sihing73
Saying that Wing Tsun doesn't have long range (or ground) game is silly. This just shows certain practitioners lack of understanding and application, their Sifu's lack of ability to teach, or their very flawed training methods.
Either you can fight, or you can't. Period.
No concact
Kicking range
Punching range
Trapping/clinch/stand up grappling range
Ground defense
We have an answer for all of that.
I've seen a lot of schools that don't spar and only Chi Sao. They don't mingle with other schools/lineages and they don't cross train with other arts. Therefore they are only functional at that one range that they train. It's not that the system doesn't have it, it's that they don't have it.
Hello,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bino TWT
I would have to disagree with you about Wing Tsun/Wing Chun or any other variation including a ground game as a core part of the system.
While there certainly are principles which could carry over, WT is a stand up fighting method.
There is no such thing as a "complete" system which can fight at every range, to think that there is could be considered "silly".
What I mean is that if you enter into trying to grapple without someone who trains that as their core you will get educated.
WT incorporated Latosa Escrima to add and fill in some gaps. Likewise some have incorporated BJJ into their systems or approaches to help with the ground game.
Sifu Kernsprecht himeslf has said you "don't try to box a boxer" or "wrestle a wrestler".
While it is all fine and good to incorporate things into your approach, it is foolhardy to think that someone who trains their ground game almost to exclusion will be easy prey to someone who trains mostly for stand up. This is not to say you could not win, just that it is better to focus on what your system trains for.
You should never try to out perform someone who is doing their art.
I would challenge anyone to show any consistent success on the ground, for example, using nothing but WC/WT/VT without having trained in BJJ or Judo or the like.
Joe Lewis, the karate fighter, trained his strong side almost exclusively with the idea of making it so effective he could blast through anything with his strong side.
Yes, WC/WT/VT can fight and do so effectively but while it trains concepts the reality is that traditional WT does not have a ground game.
If it did I would question why I was not taught ground fighting when I trained in it (WT) and also trained at the "castle" in Langenzell?
Wing Tsun is a concept based art. It's all about how you train. Our lineage has always had ground defense. No competition sport grappling like BJJ, but solutions for dealing with an opponent on the ground and getting back to your feet, anti-grappling, takedown defense, etc. The idea is to not be on the ground, and if it does happen, to spend as little time as possible down there. A lot of this is neglected though in a lot of Kwoons, but you should recognize it mostly from the Lat Sao Program Student Grade 5, depending on what was going on while you were at the castle.
You are correct in that you don't try to wrestle a wrestler, but WT does have solutions for a wrestler. Thing is, we are not limited by his rules. We understand that as a combat/self defense art, you don't want to fool around on the ground, but you do need to be able to handle yourself and have a contingency plan if you do end up on the ground. It's not about trying to outperform them at their own game, as it is defending yourself against their game. I wouldn't recommend boxing a boxer either, although I would recommend cross training and sparring with one to use your WT to develop a solution for a boxer.
As far as the Escrima goes, a lot of us train it, but separately. It hasn't been integrated to fill in any gaps. (side note: KK did integrate some Jun Fan/JKD techniques and training methods he learned from Jesse Glover into the first 4 student grades of the Lat Sao program.) I started Escrima directly under GM Rene Latosa, but now do Kali Escrima. I have also trained both the EWTO version of WT, and the Hong Kong (IWTA) version of WT. Kernspecht is my Si-Gung, My first Si-Fu was a direct student of KK and a classmate of Emin, and after he came to America he opened an IWTA school and traveled doing seminars with LT. The head of the organization he's with now was an instructor at the castle, but is currently under Martin Hofmann. My current Si-Fu is a student of Tam Yiu Ming now, and has previously trained under Cheng Chuen Fun, Chris Collins, and Salvador Sanchez. The WT anti-grappling and ground defense is present in both the EWTO & IWTA WT.
That said Sihing73, it's nice to meet another WT practitioner, and yes I'm a little jealous that you got to train at the castle lol. So, that's not just a screen name, you really are my Si-Hing.:cool: I will be training directly with Leung Ting in October, so I can check that off my bucket list though.
I have a video in the WC forum on Fb where I went to the local Gracie Barra BJJ school and handled their instructors with WT on the ground, playing by their rules, so it can be done. Not advisable, but not impossible either.
Hello Bino TWT,
It may not be accurate to consider me a WT practitioner any more. While WT is my core system, I have trained several other lineages as well as Pekiti Tirsia and Malabar Silat. My first "official" Sifu was Roy Undem who was of the Augustine Fong lineage. My current Sifu would be Chung Kwok Chow of NYC.
Training at the castle was fun. I went to several seminars while I was in Germany, many at the castle. Can’t begin to explain how cool it was to train there. Seems like there was a seminar every weekend somewhere in Germany and of course the regular training during the week. Training in Germany was really like being with an extended family. When not in class or a seminar we used to go out to the woods and train and grill. Very very cool.
Funny story about attending one of the sessions at the castle. It was winter and the roads were snow covered. While leaving the castle I went off the road into a ditch. I walked back up and got Sifu Kernsprecht. He actually was able to lift the back end of my car, a Ford EXP, off the ground about 3 inches and move the back end around. Couldn’t get the car out of the ditch, a farmer pulled it out with a tractor, but the fact that he was able to lift it was impressive, even though the engine was in the front. When you are that strong you don’t need Wing Tsun, funny thing is he did Chi Sau with such a light touch.
My primary level certificate lists two Sifu for me, Keith Kernsprecht and Allan Fong. When I returned to the States after Germany I actually got to live with Allan and his family while I worked in NYC some years back. I trained in Germany in 1985 and 86 while stationed there in the Army. I, and Allan, broke from WT around 1990 or 91 due to the politics. I am currently listed as a disciple of Chung Kwok Chow of NYC but have lived in Georgia since 2007. I got my Primary Level in 1987 and was permitted to teach in 1986. The Lat Sau program was pretty new back then and I believe that it was more developed in Germany.
As to ground fighting, what I was taught was to get back to my feet as quickly as possible. Yes, WT is a conceptual system and you can, in a pinch, utilize those concepts on the ground, but that is not what the system was designed for. We can agree to disagree on this as there is no point in arguing over it. My view is that no system is 100% complete or can handle every possible situation. Having said that, if you understand the concepts behind something you can make it work in many different situations.
As to Escrima, I personally did not like Latosa and opted to train in Pekiti Tirsia which seemed to fit me better. I was fortunate enough to train with one of Leo’s early students and probably one of the best fighters he ever produced, Akmeed Boouraca. I still consider AK a friend and hope to visit him when I go to Philly for Labor Day.
Regardless, welcome to the forum and I look forward to hearing more from you.
Sihing73, it is a pleasure to meet you brother. I will most definitely have to look you up next time I'm in GA to meet up for some beer, BBQ, and Chi Sao. And of course to hear all of your cool stories!
Why not just use wing chun kicks at long range ?
👍Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehawk4
I agree. :D