Bruce Lee As A fighter

How many of you believe Bruce lee was some amazing fighter? It's funny people here in China think he was the best fighter that ever lived literally. I have only seen one video of him sparring for a demo at a competition, and to be honest it didn't look any better than what I was doing like 20 years ago. He was like 130 pounds and five foot six? He didn't have any competitive fighting record other than I think high school boxing, some HK street fights and his one famous two minute fight against another kung fu guy. I think a lot of us here have more fighting experience than that. So what makes him really such great a fighter? As a MA actor yes he deserves all the props in the world ,but how can people still believe he was the best fighter in the world, or even that good of a fighter?

ALSO,

WHY do people act like a young kind under 25 years old when the fight happened, was some legendary fighter? they act like wong jack man and bruce lee were living legends. they were a pair of young adults with very little real fight experience. what made this fight so legendary? what made them so deadly? lmao.

when you have ELDERS running chinatowns martial arts community who've put in decades of their lives to training and teaching, why was this young smart mouth KID treated like he was a champion? the same goes for wong jack man.

these were young nobodies. the only reason people loved bruce was because of his movies. but remember, he only died in his early 30's. how MASTERFUL can he be at this age? LMAO.

It's past 40 years since his death.
People still talk about him.
Go figure.

Greetings,

Bruce Lee's edge was Western Boxing. It gave him an incredible advantage over other MA's in physical conditioning, endurance and timing. There was no binary, "and step", approach. He had continuous combinations when karateka did not. He was a Ferrari in a world of Model Ts. If we jumped the timeline of Bruce Lee's arrival back two decades and had Bruce Lee arriving in the US in 1941, at age 19. when boxing was still a big deal, would Bruce Lee have had the same impact?

I have read that Bruce Lee studied footage of well known boxers of the day. I have yet to read about him going around and challenging them.


mickey

Theoretically boxing gave him an advantage but he wasn’t competing and proving himself so how does he deserve the best fighter in the world title. Writing books ,teaching and making movies doesn't qualify you as a great fighter ,fighting does, and who did he fight? I'm sure at the time of Bruce Lee's movies any decent Thai boxer, wrestler, Kyokushin karate fighter or even boxer his size would have beat him, am I wrong? If you mention Bruce Lee and fighting In China it's like you have to follow with the best fighter in the world. I think this further puts kung fu into the fantasy category. We should respect the man for what he was a great athlete, MA and actor. I'm sure he was no push over but best fighter in the world, not even close by any stretch of the imagination.

He was a celebrity and a movie star.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over such things as his fan base would go on about.
It's totally normal for people to say these exaggerated things about their favourite stars.
Common even.

But I cant sleep its eating at me. Just kidding ,if we don't talk about trivial martial arts stuff here don't think this place will exist.

BL was a highly naturally-talented MAist. He was a prodigy at human movement. And I do believe he could fight. BUT the best fighter? The best MAist who ever lived? Of course not. People who say that are confusing his screen image and movie fights with real life. It's a BIG world, and there are guys out there who have had to use their stuff to kill people. I'm sure the baddest of the bad aren't even famous names.

Was BL even known in mainland China when he was still alive? I kinda doubt it, except for maybe Chinese gov't officials watching his movies.

The late karate/kickboxing champ Joe Lewis stated that BL never fought anybody. True, he never even sparred Lewis or Mike Stone, but I heard he actually did spar Chuck Norris, a couple of times, and Norris came out of it "red-faced", as stated by a witness(es). New York fighter Louis Delgado (who defeated Norris in competition) actually sparred BL more than once, and stated himself that BL outclassed him, and that he'd never faced anybody like BL. FWIW.

BL once boasted he wasn't afraid of any man, but then stated that he wouldn't want to face karate/judo fighter Jim Harrison in a real fight, because Harrison was too dangerous, which I do believe. I strongly suspect BL was glad he never faced Harrison, because IMO Harrison probably would have won, handily. Jim Harrison was a beast with real-world combat experience.

IIRC, Gene LeBell grabbed Lee on the Green Hornet set and lifted him up. Supposedly, BL was helpless and yelling at him to put him down while LeBell laughed while carrying him around. It sounded more playful than anything, but LeBell was a bad@ss who I have no doubt could have taken BL, IMO.

Note that I didn't compare him to any current fighters. Because that would be pointless.

I still admire BL as a MAist, as a tremendous natural talent, and for his revolutionary empty-hand fight choreography (which he actually based on Japanese chanbara choreography, especially the Zatoichi movies). You can see this in the timing, rhythm, etc., in his fight scenes. I'm still a BL fan, but definitely am NOT a 'fanboy' or worshipper.

I saw an interview with Chuck Norris and he said they only trained together and never sparred, and that he believed he would have won because he was bigger could take a hit better and was a champion fighter. I don't believe the accounts that he toyed with this fighter or that fighter. I think he probably either did some light contact play sparring with them or did some kind of speed game or something other than actually fighting, and they were being polite because it was Bruce Lee. There are so many stories hard to tell what is real. Victor Moore said in an interview he sparred with Lee and was tagging him all over. Again who knows.

There is really only one video of him sparring and it was not that great. Phenomenal athlete no doubt. I'm sure with his athleticism, speed and fanatical training regimen he must have been tough,but a tiny guy beating bigger professional fighters? Can someone point to any other time in history this happened?

Over the years, Chuck Norris himself has made some exaggerated claims or even outright fibbed before. I remember a long time ago, Chuck said he retired from competition before the advent of full-contact. Then later in a TV interview when he said he was a world champion, he was asked if it was full-contact, and he nodded yes. Most of those guys were tournament karate fighters; guys like Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Benny Urquidez, etc., actually became professional fighters. Chuck, Mike Stone, etc., we're not. IIRC, Chuck was part of (or captain of) a winning tournament karate team that was given some pay, so then he was technically a "professional fighter" for a brief period, but not in the way most people think.

Also, Chuck Norris isn't all that big. I saw him in person, and he appeared to be about the same size or slightly smaller than I am (I'm only 5'9" barefoot and 170 pounds). Bigger than BL but not a giant in comparison. Joe Lewis, OTOH, was a different type of fighter and athlete altogether, even though he lost 3 out of 4 to Chuck in point fighting. IMO BL could not have beaten Joe Lewis in a match or a fight and was well aware of that.

I also don't know about Vic Moore. BL used him in a speed demo at a tournament once, and Moore claimed to block BL's hand. I never heard of them actually sparring. In the video he didn't really block BL's hand, but then BL's hand didn't actually touch him, either. The demo was meaningless. There are tons of exaggerated claims made about BL, and also a lot of exaggerated claims made AGAINST BL. Anyone can claim "BL dominated me," or "I beat BL in a match," and there's no way to prove or disprove it. I don't see what a guy like Louis Delgado had to gain by claiming that BL beat him in sparring, though.

There is a reason there are weight divisions in professional as well as amateur sport fighting.

When I was young, I did see smaller guys beat up athletic bigger guys (a couple times they were much bigger), in street brawls, but that's neither here nor there.

I guess I went OT and didn't add much here...

Speaking of Louis I also heard him say contradicting things about Bruce Lee, something like yeah he was a great fighter to the opposite. I think I know where that interview with Moore is I can try to find it. Apparently the point fighting back in the day was a rough sport. I have seen clips and it looks tough. I still would put my money on Norris if the two went at it back in the day. Point fighters get put down but the fact is they are very talented fighters. Here is a true story.

Back in the early to mid nineties I landed a job working at a kind of Mc dojo in my hometown. The owner eventually started sponsoring a team of some of the best point fighters in New York one of them was fast foot Fontanez. They would train at the school I taught at once or twice a week, and I joined in. They would always spar continuous, only rarely doing the stop for a point method and they were fast powerful and accurate. One time when I was already a BB I spared one of their Greenbelts and he nailed me in the solo plexus with a reverse punch and winded me. Another time I blocked a spinning hook kick from a BB and jammed my thumb up it blew up to twice it's normal size.

So I don't think Norris only knew how to point fight. I'm sure he learned the hard way things where wild back then. He choose an acting career over fighting full contact ,who wouldn't.

I do agree that many point fighters, especially the old school ones, went at it hard. Joe Lewis, Jim Harrison, Allen Steen, and Fred Wren were only a few examples of tournament fighters who made it the 'blood and guts era'. Also, many people thought that Bill "Superfoot" Wallace was extremely fast but "flippy-dippy" with no power. He had transitioned from points to full-contact. I attended a week-long, comprehensive kickboxing seminar taught by him in Irvine, CA, in 1982, and got to spar him among other fighters there, and Wallace was a beast. Oddly enough, it was his punches, especially his left hook, that rang my bell more than his left kicks. He was way stronger than he looked, or that many people gave him credit for. Others underestimate him because he fought in PKA kickboxing.

Obviously, I never met or sparred with BL, so I cannot judge his true fighting ability in comparison to Wallace. But unless BL could have blown out Wallace's knee with a side kick, I'd put my money on Wallace if the two had ever went at it.

Norris was lucky he had movies to transition to. But giving credit where it's due, Norris made it in movies and became rich initially because of BL. It was BL who brought Norris onto the film The Wrecking Crew, then Way of the Dragon, which exposed Norris to the general public through his association with BL. Otherwise, Norris would have remained a karate fighter/instructor unknown to anyone but people who were into the '60s tournament scene and/or read Black Belt magazine. Because Norris was NOT a naturally talented actor or charismatic showbiz personality. Norris should probably show a little more gratitude for that, instead of taking posthumous potshots at BL like he's done in recent years. Sometimes it's classier to swallow one's own pride, but many MAists seem unable to do that, at least consistently.

Didn't know about the wrecking crew. Never heard of that one got to look it up. I think this is the interview were Moore talks about sparring Bruce. He says something like he sparred him near or under the bleachers of a tournament. Might have been the same one where that speed test was done, and was tagging him then after Bruce was like {so what do you think of my JKD} and Moore was like not much I was just tagging you all over. I tend to believe Moore's version of the event even though the speed test thing even though the video doesn't verify his version of the account. He claimed it was edited and that Bruce played some kind of trick with him. That to me sounds realistic. I live in Asian been in China for over a decade and ever once in a while some "master" will try to play some silly game like that. If Bruce was really the great fighter he was suppose to be why didn't he fight Moore? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WE4XPdw0GA&t=1710s

I have seen a couple of masters (or "masters") do tricks like that when I lived in Taiwan, to set you up to make themselves look great. I do believe BL did that to varying degrees in his demos, but that he also had more raw physical talent than most of the masters I've seen who do tricks. The thing about Vic Moore, when I watched one of his interviews, is that he seemed really bitter about the BL thing. How many people besides him still even care about some old speed demo? He has all these accolades from his peers, so why still carry that bitterness for over 50 years? Ego is a helluva thing. Maybe he could or couldn't have beaten BL in a sparring match, but at this late hour, who can really know?

IIRC, it was Richard Bustillo who witnessed one of the supposed two sparring matches BL had with Norris. Of course, Bustillo was BL's student, so hardly an impartial observer.

The Wrecking Crew (1968) isn't a very good movie. It starred Dean Martin and co-starred Sharon Tate (later a Manson Family victim). BL was the fight choreographer. He got Norris, Joe Lewis, and Ed Parker to take very small roles as the villain's henchmen who get beaten by Dean Martin. But it was Norris's first time in a movie, and BL remembered him four years later for Way of the Dragon. I think Joe Lewis said that BL originally wanted HIM for WOTD, but Lewis refused, so BL got Norris instead. Maybe true, maybe not. I think that fight scene ended up better with Norris than it would have with Lewis; Lewis was a great fighter in real life, but that didn't translate well to the screen.

Sounds like a cool movie will check it out thanks. As for Moore, I can understand his feelings. The guy was a champion, ok point fighting but it was still hard as hell to get there I'm sure, and here's some little cocky guy who is staring in movies and not fighting, he does some little trick and the world recognizes him as the best fighter on the planet. That would **** me off too.

Chuck Norris wouldn't even have a career without Bruce Lee really. Neither would a few other people that associated with him and a whole lot of people who profess to teach jeet kuen do to this day.

As for fighting, that has a lot less to do with what you train and more to do with how you train.
If you don't ever cross hands, it's likely that you don't know how to actually fight.

Wing Chun Western Boxing Fencing steps

Taichi theory

etc etc

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