Is your WC stiff and rigid in order to maxiumize power strikes?
Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?
What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?
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Is your WC stiff and rigid in order to maxiumize power strikes?
Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?
What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?
Why would you ask this question? Do you already have an answer yourself, or looking for help?
From an energy perspective, flow/lau is not a constant, but used when it's necessary. As are thing like chung/crashing, saat/chopping, fa/neutralizing and ying/structured energies. Sometimes you will find them necessary in combinations as well.
IMO, to always be flowing or 'like water' means you have no real point of reference which causss you to always have a floating bridge and no sense of a true centerline. In other words, you have no self identity and are forced to always be in constant reaction to your opponent which is considered chasing.
Just because the structure, intention and form is different than what your use too...doesn't make any less chi sau than what your currently doing...If you were to travel back in the time before Yip Man Western students were born...you would see chi sau probably looking more like the video!
I am asking the question to get a discussion started because the forums has slowed down alot...just to get people talking...I like your analogy on flowing. I guess you see Flow as Fan Sau. which is what i mean...I am speaking from a purely fighting or sparring point of view how ever...
IMHO there are two ways to flow...Offensively and Defensively...or if you will aggressively and reactionary. Why chase your opponent unless he is trying to retreat from your fist in his face, why react to a opponent who is still or not advancing. How can you react to a punch if no punch is thrown or how can you react to a kick if no kicks are launched? When I flow its primarly for attacking aggressively. An the flow continues once my opponent changes...I adapt and feel my opponent struggle or attempt to counter attack or defense. I remove, redirect or dissipate his force as needed whilst continuing to attack relentlessly.
Center Line what is your definition of the centerline...When fighting or sparring my goal is to maintain control of my opponents centerline. If i can keep his attacking line away from my centerline I am where i want to be. Mistakes may happen or the opponent may be better. But evitable the goal is to control his structure so i can hit him easily with out him having the ability to hit me in return.
Bridges to me means when you have contact with your opponent. In simple terms a bridge can be from shoulder to shoulder, leg to leg, knee to knee or body to body...But when I say bridge i mean Arms are connected or touching. The bridge allows me to control, redirect and feel my opponents intent more accurately. But No one who wants to win is going to allow me to bridge with them for prolonged periods. Once i begin touching their guards either they gonna hit me or move they arms back. When my opponent strikes I either intercept and control the centerline upon initial contact of the bridge or react to attack an redirect the energy to cut off his force and regain the center line. With each new strike he launches I will have new bridges created. But if his guards are drawn back or he moves his arm so i can not bridge. I am not finna wait for his arms to connect with. I will continue to attack him an hit his face in...Up Until he attempts to strike or cover or block my attacks. Then i go back to control the center line control his structure. In a fight there is no such thing as a static bridge! My Force is always going Forward. My horse is always moving into the opponent. I am flowing aggressively and relentlessy hitting my opponent continously.
Flow is something that typically happens in a non-sport fight..in other words someone on the street is usually going to continue to come at you or continue to swing and attack...You may break his rhythm by sweep or throw or pull or a push or even a hard hit. But once he regains his structure he will continue on attacking you like water...
Your guess would be wrong. I am talking from an energy perspective, you're talking technique.
So am I. I don't even get what you're talking about, why would you think I'm not talking about WC from a fighting or sparring POV? Are you saying there is no energy exchange in a fight when using WC?
Or do you think WC has a more important use besides for fighting?
You sound like someone that doesn't have a clue what they are even talking about. If you have really put in all the time sparring with different MA's that you claim to have, or been in a real street fight you wouldn't be making silly statements like above. FWIW, I know plenty of 'street fighters' that are defensive/counter-fighters that don't just come in swinging all the time - what you're talking about are scrubs with little to no skill, which are not even relevent to the discussion in most cases.
A fight is a fight, street, sport or otherwise. Yes, 'sport-fights' have rules, but the skills used are the same regardless the location or setting - and you're going to find a lot higher degree of skilled opponents with a better idea of 'flow' with sport fighters than you will on the 'street' (whether they call it flow or not is another matter).
Are you saying wrestlers or grapplers have no concept of 'flowing'?
Are you saying boxers have no idea of how to react to an opponent?
Ground Grapplers do nothing but flow...From one technique to the next until they get a submission or loose the connection...Boxers can counter from the bob and weave and in some cases meet an attack with an preemptive attack.
As for outside sparring and rule based ring fights...Yes i agree a brawler with less skill may infact charge in to take your head off. Which is why a brawler can defeat you because he is thinking about ending the fight quickly and your thinking about prolonging it. its some defensive street fighters out there...But alot of them if angry enough are going to charge in swinging on you...One thing that makes WC strong is that mentality...That constant forward pressure and continous forward motion of being attacked continously.
AS for energy...Flow is an energy i dont deny that...But when i say flow i mean the difference between static or choppy attacks that are one two one two attacks like point sparring or something like a drill or self defense technique...oppose to all out fighting with a constinous flow of attacks.
Are you a defensive fighter with your wing chun? do you wait on your opponent to make the first move or attack an counter? Do you move in an out of range with wing chun like an outside fighter?
Or do you aggressively charged your opponents space with chasing horse and darting horse while punching, kicking, grappling an attacking?
You can easily see where Chi Sao can create poor fighting habits. If you just look that is. Chi sao was first only 2 man, or multiple man drills where each man could get in some practice for applying his attack and defense weapons. Getting familiar with his tool so to speak. Over time, in particularly in the west, people could not stop there and loved to chi sao so much that it became something alive and full of itself. It can steal your ability to effectively fight.
Being like water is so simple. It was never meant to be phylisophical in nature, but just something that describes something else within nature. Water has no real form and it will always take the shortest route of the very least resistance. It can take several paths at the same time. But more than anything else, once it begins to move, it does not have to move real fast. It moves constantly, seeking it's own level. You can not catch it no matter how fast you are because it moved first and continues to move as a constant. You can block it, but it will seek another route. You can not stop it. Chi Sao will not get you there.
Nope, my Ving Tsun is stiff and rigid because, as my sifu says, i'm too tense and the tensest person he's ever met :o
I try to, but I dont want to make it seem like it's something where I just go on and on when sparring. It's more that when I started sparring, I usually went for 1-2 hits. Now, I'd like to hit more and cut out certain bad habits which would lead to me hitting more often by using every opening to it's maximum level (it sounds cool when i say it like that, in short, im a no0b who misses lots of good hits because i hesitate at times). At the same time, I also dont see endless flow as just attacks or defense. Imho, the flow is in accordance with the way the "fight" goes.
Water flows with anything while still being water. That's what it means to me: flow with anything without being controlled by what you're flowing with. It really applies to anything imo.
random examples:
-I dont let an opponent control me with his strategy, but i will use his strategy and exploit it somehow (ideally that is)
-I dont let a forumer troll me but instead I deal with them in a way that makes them look silly and desperate through their own words without me stooping to their level
-I may be totally behind on my schedule for the day but I learn how to utilize each moment to its fullest regardless of whether or not my day is going exactly as I planned.
imo, being like water basically means smoothly flowing with any circumstances/events/etc in the optimal way.
Here we go! :D
Firstly, Ip Man never taught any westerners, so if you want to point the finger at anyone point it in the direction of his students that spread his teachings worldwide like Wong Shun Leung, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Lee Shing etc and from my experience they have all done a good job, unique and individual interpretations, but good all the same.
Secondly, if you had ever bothered to look at any of my own clips you might have seen that I personally do not advocate the typical Chisau platform, I rotate in various ways and have different names for different intentions, Chisau being only one of our interactive exercises. So, in short I know exactly what the guys are doing in the clip which is why I stated it isn't Chisau. Have a look at how we interact with 'flow' and tell me if you do anything like this... http://youtu.be/tx0ID9XEZ6E?t=1m40s
Finally, will you stop using ye olde 'travel back in time' cr4p because I personally do not think you have learnt enough Wing Chun yourself to even highlight what the differences could be. That's not to say we all can't speculate, but I find it far more useful to discuss what you have seen and done 'first hand'.
From all of your posts sir, I believe this may be my all time favourite. You hit the nail on the head and I think everybody should read this quote and take on it's content seriously to avoid falling into the traps so many of our peers have, knowingly or not.
WC should never be stiff or rigid as it implies an inability to change and being stiff or rigid diminishes power not maximises it. I suspect you may be confusing structure with rigidity or stiffness.
This is the same question twice in effect. I believe the original intent of the phrase "be like water" simply meant if you meet an obstacle flow round it to find the holes and if you find a hole no matter how small go through it. Obviously one can expand the metaphor to illustrate all sorts of points.Quote:
Do you ever utilize endless or continous flow?
What does it mean to be like Water when you fight?
If you are utilising continuous or endless flow to use your words then you are either partnered with someone of exactly the same ability as yourself and you are both so good that you never make mistakes or you are doing something wrong. "Flowing" stops once a hole is found until an attempt is made by the other side to plug the gap, when you flow into the next gap. Trying to artificially maintain a "flow" leads to arm chasing and some very pretty but highly ineffective practise.
First you say
But then you say
So which is it? Do only your deadly street fighter scrubs have flow, or do sport fighters understand it too?
Ok, now I get your point - you're talking about a very basic understanding of 'flow' as in regards chaining your actions together. All MA's have this. I thought you were asking something a little deeper in regards to WC specifically. My mistake. :)
JPinAZ okay wow...now you have me curious...Hmmm what do you mean by FLOW or what you thought i meant by wing chun specifically having Flow? Please enlighten me....I know its off subject but i wont understand the other schools of thought concerning flow or continous motion?
As for non-sport fights...i meant something like point karate where you hit an break or boxing or kick boxing where you back away or move away to calculate your next move...
I check the clip below...No offense but is this your video?
If is Not...I wasnt impressed...First of all they lack whole body connection...basically their hands are flowering around doing stuff...This is not what i mean by flow...Hands and feet move together. Either your moving an striking or kicking an striking at the same time...When i say moving i mean moving in on your opponent constantly.
your right about Yips students...i still refer to westerners as yip man lineage...any way i digress...
where are your clips located?
LoneTiger, forget everything this guy is saying.
This is coming from the same guy that thinks that the following clips are representitive of top notch training and good, 'strong' punches & attacks. He'll probably even tell you they represent the 'good flow' that he is referring too!
(These are some clips of guys yoshi occasionally trains with that are in his same lineage and also live in St. Louis, of which he holds in high regards as 'good fighters'. :rolleyes:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nJb3...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaaWg...3&feature=plcp
I threw up in my mouth after watching those clips.
Van, that sort of Wing Chun requires tremendous foot speed and foot work. It works best if you can get a guy to chase you. When I was a kid, I got guys to chase me and drilled them off of the jut and pac. The key is that you have to move. They were stationary for the camera.
I understand that you aren't as familiar with that brand of WC, but I assure you that it can be effective. If you have the right attributes versus your opponent.
Now I am not saying that those clips were the best I have ever seen, but I recognized the limited space with the camera is a problem
The camera was pretty far back and they had more than enough space to demonstrate their WC. The fact is, if someone needs more than an entire backyard to run around and have someone 'chase' them to make any WC work, then they probably don't understand WC at all and are doing something else entirely (this also goes for those that would advocate doing this, or anyone defending these clips).
And I'll hold my comments on the 'quality' of these clips, I think they speak for themselves, as well as the POV yoshi is coming from ;)
No, the quote below speaks volumes for someone that doesn't have a clue about WC, or fighting with it (along with making you sound like you're a closet puff boy):
Keep defending those 'great' clips I posted, it's a perfect indication of what you know and don't know :rolleyes:
That sounds like your brand of Wing Chun. Running away. I'm sure it would work even better for you if you did the running while waving a white flag and calling out "uncle" at the top of your lungs. But I'm sure that was a big part of your childhood training.
Now that you're older do you still have guys chase you and then drill them when they are stationary for the camera? Do you make a lot of money selling those videos?
Your claim to fame is going to a smoker in the 80's and getting destroyed. It's not a brand of WC. It's just something that I did a lot when I was a teen fighting bigger stronger opponents. When Victor posted here, we talked a lot about this because he was a small guy. If you conception of WC is the clash and grapple, you probably loose against anyone who is the least bit heavier than you.
Thanks for the heads up dude but I have seen these clips before.
I'm always open to peoples opinions of what I do, especially since I put a small troupe up in such a public demo I guess you could say I'm asking for trouble lol! And I see totally what you're saying but I don't want to get into all the negativity anymore to be honest.
Personally It looks quite clear to me that the guys in the clips learnt from Youtube and I have nothing further to say about that!!
But IF they learnt that stuff from a Sifu?? They could have copied this instead as at least this dude looks like he knows what he is doing and why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5...eature=related
Well, yes that is me and my kung fu bro taking the guys out to demonstrate what we do and how we train. Sorry it doesn't conform to your own ideas of what you think Wing Chun is, but from looking through your clips I have to say I am quite pleased that it doesn't.
You are a westerner right? From Loiusville or something? Or at least the guys in the clips are right? Your post here wreaks of some superiority complex about being from a non-Ip Man lineage.
How long have you learnt Wing Chun exactly and from who? Does your own Sifu (if you have one) also support your attitude towards Ip Mans western influence?
Forgive me for digressing!!
Good olde UK dude. Birmingham in fact, at The Martial Arts Show. Supporting the establishment of a new group of like minded guys called the British Traditional Chinese Martial Arts Association - linking many older systems under one umbrella.
I prefer to listen to their expert opinions and advice rather than the ranting of some random dude overseas who promotes clips of guys who look like they can't even walk...
My brand of WC is to focus on relentlessly attacking the opponent instead of continually dealing with his attacks.
I rather move in, take a hit but dominate the fight, instead of staying on the back foot and continually receiving the opponent's attack.
Do not assume that, by focusing on defending, one can sneak in a hit and turn the game around. Most people can take a few hits unless your hits are like being hit by a truck. And don't forget while you are on the defensive your balance and power could be compromised and your strikes may not be as powerful as during bag work or training.
Dominate, focus on the task, keep attacking until your opponent is down. Then strike him some more just in case.
And I'll put it this way...if I was those guys on those videos...I wouldn't post anything...ever.
It's not the fact that they're stationary per say, or that they have trouble speaking English, or that they are out of shape, can't punch, don't practice in a manner conducive to actual combat, have poor fighting posture...oh...wait....yes it is.
Carry on then.
I would leave alone how people talk. That can come of as pretty racist. More generally, it's just not a classy thing to say.
While it may not seem classy, nothing I said wasn't accurate. But racist?! :rolleyes: One of my best friends is black, and he speaks very intelligently. I have another close friend who's white who can't articulate hardly at all. Nothing to do with race...stop assuming and more specifically implying things.
I was mainly referring to the perception that you can give off by saying certain things. Take my advice or leave it. It is up to you. Certain actions have their own rewards and punishments.
Edit: I don't think that you are a racist. It's just a little friendly advice.
The only reason you are saying this is you assume it is based on the color of the people's skin in the clip because of how YOU see them, and then judging others' comments accordingly. That stinks of racism on your end.
Telling people how to talk isn't friendly, lil guy.
His comment was no more racist than your assumption that it was based on how you view the people in the clips. I think most of us here just saw 2 guys doing bad WC.
BTW, how one talks is typically either cultural or eduactional (or lack of) - has nothing to do with race, so let it go before you make yourself look even more foolish that you already do
I don't think Dave meant anything by it. He's right in that it was a little tasteless to say something like that, as it doesn't have any direct link to the viability of one's wing chun skill. Indirectly though, it does give insight as to the general intelligence of an individual. If one cannot grasp something as fundamental as verbal speech to relay thoughts---how can they understand and relay understanding of the physicality's of combat?
Now I'm sure that the fellas in the video are decent people. They probably go to church, pay their bills, help others when they can, train with a self-perceived fervor that rivals an MMA fighter...and all that stuff.
But I keep thinking of that saying when I watch this video: "Better to let someone think you're an idiot than open your mouth and confirm it."
wow this post has been derailed...
Thanks Humble guy for your humble post...
An imperial Tai Chi thanks your on Point! i agree with your philosphy concerning fighting....When you fight its not time to wait an defensive...its time to move in for the kill....