just a thought..... we also have this discussion with Shaolin wugong.
Hui Neng certainly took the teachings South. now whats so hard for these numbskulls to connect the dots?
how does one go to say "legitimacy of ch'an comes from the south" .....????
a blind person can see, if Shaolin started in the north, with Songshan....its safe to say the temple Fujian and Quanzhou, (for example) , who are regarded as Southern Shaolin Monasteries , are branch schools of Ch'an. so
A. The Ch'an teachings, qigong and wugong, are all related to its origin, Songshan
B. This makes the claim of legitimacy coming from the south obsolete because the southern temples are branches of Songshan.
now I'm no history or religious scholar, but thats easy for me to see. why does the author have to go out of his way to dis Songshan? lol.....almost writes his work off as trash. I'd love to talk to him and hear where the motivation to disregard Songshan as the cradle of Ch'an stems.
Amituofo
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Wu Zu temple and Hui Neng
One thing I just found out and also find VERY interesting is that the temple where Hui Neng supposedly received his transmission of Dharma and inherited the cotton robe at "Wuzu Si (五祖寺)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuzu_Temple is still active and can be visited today.
This raises my eyebrow more in the story of Shaolin's ancestral courtyard and why the story of Zen's origins in China, especially surrounding Shaolin in Songshan and the spread of Ch'an into the south, is always obscured to the point of key figures like Hui Neng and his disciples being left out of mention with Shaolin.
One recorded account is At the great Dharma Assembly at Shaolin around year 732/731, eminent monk Shenhui made the claim that, Shenxiu tried to usurp the lineage from Hui Neng, and Shen Hui himself is the real successor to Hui Neng. Though it is commonly accepted that Hui Neng had many disciples who went on to spread Ch'an, it is not recorded to whom he gave Damo's robe to. Shen Hui and Shen Xiu made their argument based on this.
Nevertheless the Southern court of Shaolin was found and is real, so SOME sort of transmission took place, and HAD to be by one of Hui Nengs ordained disciples.
There's also little to no written history in popular academia, telling the story of Hui Neng at Shaolin, so it almost seems true that Shen Xiu or Shen Hui was part of a coup to usurp the lineage, probably for political reasons at the time.
Most of what we have about the story, is in folklore.
One of my all time favorite Shaolin movies "The Holy Robe of the Shaolin Temple" (1985) , also called Shaolin vs. Wutang 2, details the story, however it's a hero's story, so it doesn't get too specific beyond a certain point. Hui Neng DOES return to Songshan with Damo's Robe to become abbot, what happens after this, it doesn't say.
What history, and Ch'an footprint around China tells us, is that at some time, probably for political reasons, Hui Neng, and a significant amount of his disciples went to the South and temples opened.
It's becoming a project of mine, and I might actually publish a work on the topic, to put all the pieces of the story together with facts, and link it to the modern sites etc.
for now, I'll keep researching the topic and studying the sutras. I'm finding it's not a matter of the story not being told, it's more a matter of the story being told in fragments, and scattered around, and Shaolin doesn't get mentioned as it should due to popular methods of sloppy academics, or some convenient overlooking of the link to Shaolin.
One scholar on Zen here in the bay literally said, when he finds a link to Shaolin in the Zen lineage study, he ignores it and leaves it out of his work because if he includes it in his study presentations, it doubles the amount of explanation he would have to give in class, with just debunking the doubt that 'themepark culture' has created around Shaolin, and then proving trivial things like Damo's presence and activity.
he also said all of his professors treat Shaolin like fantasy no matter how dense the facts he presented were, and that broke my heart, because if you have a hard time doing that in school, where you SHOULD be clearing the picture up it makes it harder for those looking for answers to find them if you dont share the story you know. Anyhow, I will share what I find for sure. I'm not going to school for anything related, but I graduate this year, and this will remain a strong topic of study and research for me, and when I get it together, I will publish a work that aims to share the Shaolin Ch'an research journey.
Amituofo
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