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sorry wiz :) bai he beat me to it. its the same link anyway.
bai he
he may be asking for the clip but some ppl don't think the clip is worth watching and i think wiz and perhaps others might appreciate my commentary on it ;) and as i said if he still wants the clip to let me know.
kung lek
its actually two rounds. three camera angles were used to film the fight which is the repeats u saw.
if anyone has some queries about the commentary i'm happy to help.
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I was just busting your stones Fri! You're a good man.
What did you get Ego Extrodinaire for X-mas?
I sent him a card laced with a rather aggressive strain
of tropical Jock itch.
Regards, P-funk
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hey bai he
no pressies for ego from me ehh...its the thought that counts after all.
btw what white crane do u study?
friday
ps merry christmas :) and take care
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I wasn't sure I wanted to get into this, but screw it.
First, why is it disrespectful to criticize the performance of two people who were supposed to be EXPERTS in their respective arts?
Sure, they had the guts to go and fight, but these are guys who convinced others (and perhaps themselves) that they could fight. But when push came to shove, it's clear to most people that a decent boxer would have eaten them alive.
Also, you said the fight was restrictive? This seems to be a conjecture on your part, but regardless, striking is well within the realm of both white crane and tai chi. To put it mildly, Mr. Ng is no Yang Lu Chan (don't know too much about the history of white crane).
Finally, why do these individuals deserve particular respect? They kidded themselves and others that they could fight.
Giving MA masters more respect than they are due is a bane to Asian martial arts. This is what lets cults like Chung Moo Do flourish. And while I do NOT subscribe to the idea that the master should be the best fighter of the style (e.g., boxing coaches at the pro level vs. the people they train), I do think the instructor should be able to hold his own.
Imho, this video should be an eye opener to anyone blindly assuming their instructor has the goods: Even if you don't want to test the instructor out, at least look at his long term students.
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Friday
None anymore. I just started studying
the internals.
I could never get a straight answer out of my Pak Hok
instructor re: style.
It definately wasn't Fukien. I believe it was a Tibetan
with a Shaolin flavor.
Have a good Holiday!
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muppet
pls note i said something about useless dissing i recall. so for, e.g. comments like 'they were both crap...the end' are rather silly comments to make in this case. :) i'm happy to discuss the what, why, how, etc, and have a discussion on what ppl think they did wrong, right, etc and constructive criticism for mutual learning.
btw i'm not suggesting u are doing the useless dissing thing. thats just a comment on what some ppl have done. and i agree with u. some ppl do push the respect thing a bit too far and don't think its ok to critically analyse a fight due to the respect thing particularly if he is of your own pai. anyway i understand that and its no big deal. then of course there are those ppl who are all talk and can't do jack and see fit to engage in useless rude, criticism.
as for the rules thing yes its partly my conjecture as Ng's lack of use of grappling, throws etc was kind of a surprise considering his background. when i heard about the rule about no kicking above waist height it seemed to suggest that the NHB, no rules that some ppl thought the fight involved was in fact incorrect. my apolgoies for misleading anyone. u will note that the statement u made that a 'decent boxer' would have eaten them alive is also conjecture, and your opinion based upon your MA exp. :) as mentioned b4, Mr Chan is also believed to have done some boxing as well.
as for experts, not taking sides or anything but a friend of mine from the internal arts was telling me he heard that mr Chan was in fact new in pak hok and was regarded as an up and coming kung fu practitioner of the style. hvaen't verified this.
the comment about kidding themselves that they could fight etc...i mean...thats what they did, they were in the ring, and they fought. it may not have been as pretty as some ppl would have liked or looked the way some ppl expected they did fight and hit each other with some pretty solid strikes. if your referring to skill levels however, which i think u are. i dont really know the internal arts that well so i don't really have too much new to add.
i'm happy to hear your comments on the fight if you are willing to share. :).
muppet what style do u practice? just curious too.
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hi bai he :)
ic thats a bit strange the origins of the style isn't exactly that secretive a topic nowadays.
anyway moving to internals seems to be a trend quite a few ppl make. how are u finding it? i'm assuming yr doing a combo of the ba gua, hsing yi, and tai chi?
u have a good holiday too
i'm making roast pork chinese style for a party tonite :)
regards,
Friday
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cool clip
Its sorta weird to finally actually dl this clip after months of trying from some other site that must be in taiwan or hong kong as it would take about 10 hours to dl this time only 3 seconds thanx who ever put the link up.
This clip has been bashed so much on this board I was pleasantly suprised to see some very good skills used not to say they were skilled fighters I havent figured that out yet. They definately held theyre hands down but some good fighters I know can get away with this, not sure if this was a good or bad thing in theyre case, I'll have to watch it a few more x.
In my opinion the Wu TCC guy schooled the Tibetan Crane guy but I really have to watch this more.
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hi brassmonkey
what does 'schooled' mean? :)
friday
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Friday, imho, dissing them IS constructive. Hopefully, it makes people see their instructors in a new light (for the better or worse) and starts the long overdue process of weeding out frauds.
Anyway, if you want an idea of the internal arts, look at Shanxi Hsing I or Piqua/Bajiquan.
They're an easy starting point for getting the flavor of internal arts because while are very direct and very aggressive, they are most effective when there is a softness.
For instance, in Hsing I, one tries not to "block", but to lightly brush aside an attack while moving in to strike.
From what I understand, Tai Chi is similar except whereas in Hsing I and Bajiquan, one generates one's own power, tai chi has refined attack redirection and has the added dimension of borrowing the opponent's power.
Power borrowing, not like in the Aikido sense, but sort of like a sling shot. If the opportunity presents itself, I let the opponent do much of the work of coiling and storing power in my body and then when they're spent (e.g., on the retreat), I let the power lash out.
Maybe I missed something, but what I saw the Wu stylist do was more akin to boxing (as you mentioned earlier) via plain ol' external power.
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Or better yet, if you can manage to find it, read Terry Dobson's recollection of Wang Shun Jin; in particular, Wang's encounter with Kazuo Chiba.
Even Kazuo Chiba's recollection of his encounter with Wang Shun Jin is impressive, although he tries hard to save his own face:
http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/othe...friends%20like
Here's another one, regarding Mas Oyama and his encounter w/ a taiji master:
http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index6j.htm
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Friday
My Pak Hok Sifu had some good stuff. But I believe he'll
take it to his grave with him. He's one of those types.
He said our lineage differs from most of the common lines.
So I believe it was a family style with 8 animals and
a few other sets mixed in.
I am enjoying the internal arts. I've just started recently
but I am enjoying it immensely. I found a great teacher out here. He teaches Hebei Hsing-I, Gao style Bagua and Serak Silat.
He also teaches Wu Style Taijiquan privately I believe.
He's a real dedicated teacher and knows his stuff.
Unfortunately I've not gotten to the point where
I can practice correctly at home yet (afraid of developing bad habits). I am loving it though.
The chi gung and nei gung make me feel great
Have a good X-mas
Regards, Peter.
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obvisouly many of you have missed alot of the subtlities in the fight. Personally i thought it was one of the best fights ive ever seen in a long time. Even though it seemed a bit akward and flimsy at times it was still a great fight but when taking in to consideration conditions and facts about the individuals it makes sense why those parts appeared that way and one can really appreciate the fighting skill displayed.
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OK let's cut the crap...there were good things in that fight, but to say it was the best one you ever seen??? The problem is that even in the lamest of the lame fights I have seen, there were always a gem or two...an set up here, a counter there, a redirection, whatever...which does not mean it is a great fight...finding only one diamond somewhere does not mean you have a diamond mine...
Now a bit of info: this fight was not at all NHB. It was a gala fight promoted by an hotel and used to raise fund for a hospital, hence the TV broadcast. The rules were quite restrictive regarding hiting zones,throws and locks...initially 6 five minutes rounds were planned, with 5 mins rest between each. There were only two rounds fought, and the video shows both but with cuts to switch angles.
The fight ended because Chen, harmed to his right arm by Wu's series of strikes to his wrist, launched a forbidden low kick, to which Wu replied by a forbidden low kick. Judges cut it out, everybody shake hands, quite satisfied (after all, good money was raised, and that was the main reason of the fight). Back on the mainland, the two parties celebrated.
But to say it was a good fight? Did taiji practicionners saw many taiji concepts? I doubt it...Dong YiJie in the audience, seen doing his form at the beginning of the clip, came after the fight to see Wu and told him he didn't know any taiji and shouldn't even teach. Of course it could just be a lineage friction hehehe
Personnaly if I didn't know Chen was supposedly doing white crane I would never have guessed his style: he always stroke with his closed fist where white crane uses open hand almost exclusively (or refined forms of fist), his stepping, jings, etc...were not white crane...
It all looked like bad kickboxing except one or two good stuffs (some counters, Wu targetting the wrist etc...).
What's the use of being a so-called master of an art and fight like that, with no flavor, no flavor of your own style, and doing some bad western kickboxing? Hell, I have seen old school savate videos of the 1920's in which the guys displayed more gong fu in 5 mins than in this whole clip...
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Some people wonder why CMAs get no respect as fighting arts from parts of the MA community.
Watch the clip. Then read the posts trying to downplay the ****poor (sloppy, off-balance, no power) skills of both combatants. If you don't get it after that.... you don't get it.
Or the one about "missing subtleties." Apparently, stumbling around like a drunken fratboy, throwing wild punches in vain at your opponent, is "subtle." This must be a new usage of the word subtle I'm unfamiliar with.
Thank heavens there are guys like Muppet and Crimson on here willing to call a spade a spade.
I'm 100% certain there are guys out there who can fight with CMA's. I'm 100% certain these two weren't in that group.