chinwoo-er is finished with that koan now. :D
please pass it along to the next.
cheers
Printable View
chinwoo-er is finished with that koan now. :D
please pass it along to the next.
cheers
cdemarco has hit the nail on the head - or the student with the kyoshaku in our case! Here's the rub. Most martial artists will define Shaolin as disticnt from other stuyles of kung because of it's zen/chan essence. They say that real Shaolin must have chan. At the same time, they really don't have a chan practice beyond their martial arts and maybe reading a few books. But then they default to the old "chan is non-dogmatic" and "kung fu is meditation", but in fact they don't know jack. I mean really, imagine if the situation was reversed. Imagine a zennist saying they practice kung fu because they've read a few books, do their own practice, but don't follow a teacher.
No wonder why most martial arts are snubbed by zen practitioners. We'd do the same to them if things were reversed.
Now personally, I don't have a regular practice or teacher for zen now. But I entered the sangha in 1995, taking the bodhsattva precepts as my vows at SF Zen's Green Dragon temple. I've done numerous work studies and practice retreats at Tassajara and other zendos/spiritual centers. I even lived at the Tibetan monastery at Bodh Gaya, India (where Buddha was enlightened).
For the record, I study with a group of immigrant Vietnamese monks who run a temple here in Oklahoma. And I still don't know jack. :pQuote:
and "kung fu is meditation", but in fact they don't know jack.
...but I'd rather know Jill then Jack.
well...:D
For the purpose of pointing it out...
Originally in buddhism, there was what is know as "the teachings of the elders".
This was the original form of buddhism. It is called "Theravada" and is teh oldest form of buddhism in practice even to this day. It's earliest texts written in Pali ( a proto script before sanskrit).
therevada left india in and around 200 BCE and spread into Tibet and parts of China as well as south. Therevada buddhism is the predominant for of buddhism that we see in vietnam, cambodia, laos, malaysia and still in India.
There was a schism in and around 20 CE and the result was Mahayana buddhism. And by 220CE the Mahayana Lotus Sutra was written into Chinese and Mahayana was spread throughout China, Korea and Japan as well as Tibet.
Mahayana buddhism was referred to as "the greater vehicle" while teh older Therevada was known as "The lesser vehicle"
These terms are both hubris and derogatory in nature, and both terms came from Mahayana school. Therevada was regarded by Mahayana as "lesser".
There's a couple of reasons why. Therevada prescribed to the idea that to truly hear the 4 noble truths and to truly follow teh 8 fold path, one must renounce worldly goods and be released from family bonds, freindships, etc and lead the monastic life in order to reach a higher level of consciousness or being.
This higher plane of existance was originally 6 levels with 4 more added by the Mahayana school. the therevada school still follows teh 6 level model.
The mahayana school conversly believed that anyone could achieve a higher level of conciousness through their continued good deeds in this life and in the transmigrated next life.
No buddhist believes that conciousness or identity can pass from one life to the next but they do accept transmigration wherein the essence of the soul moves from one life to the next.
From Mahayana comes Chan or Zen. The text which was transmitted to the disciple Hui Ke that contained the seeds of Chan was teh Lankavatara sutra which takes a look at the state of sunya and how it relates to the soul because it is the attempt at realization of non-dualism. Sunya transliterates as "void".
The Mahayana come Chan Idea was that in teh 8 fold path, to focus on right meditation meant to focus on sunya, emptiness and ultimately one would see the true reality of themselves and therefore the universe. This is why there are statements such as "doctrineless" and "without dogma" associated with Chan. But to learn how to get to the point where you realize what Sunya is and how to seek it through purpose and intent that meditation is, one most certainly requires some initiation.
When in practice and the whell is turning is were the practice becomes remarkably seated in the individual and has no greater body than that. This is possibly where the former misinterpretation of the understanding of Chan comes from.
Now, the reason why it is "Shaolin" is because Chan was founded at Shaolin and was spread outward from Shaolin.
So, to be Shaolin, one must at least attempt Chan.
Because of it's lack of duality, it is often easy to be misled into thinking that just going about your life and sitting in meditation is enough. It is not and I agree with Gene about this. there is a whole lot more to be understood before coming to those simple acts. But when you have learned these, all there is is the simple act. But it still isn't simple.
the rest cannot be put into words simply because that is not a valid form of transmission in regards to much of Chan.
Hope that confuses and informs ya at the same time.
P.S, You can also seek a zen master and recieve your initiation, but don't count on getting accepted to quickly :D
cheers
Didnt Shaolin first barrow from older martial arts. I would say Sumo is not Shaolin, but if I am not mistaking did that start from a Shaolin Monk, in Japan, from what I read anyway.
and alot of people who do not do any kungfu but maybe know or have seen some other martial arts(other the kungfu), think of kick boxing as something completely different then kungfu, but alot of kungfu artist kickbox probably more so then (T.K.D or Karate) so Kick Boxing, Mauy Thai, dont they say that start off as a Shaolin system, and even today, Burman Kick Boxing, as so graps, and throws, and kungfu like techinques they cant practice in the sport.
really I havent seen one posture in Shaolin, that is similar to Tai Chi.
But I would say Kempo Karate is not Shaolin.
but this is just in techinques, and theory.
I would have to agree with Kung lek, Shaolin they say is more then just a martial art, to be shaolin one must atleast attempt Zen (CHan). anyway thats my take on it.
One must always keep in mind that Buddhism began as a discipline just for monks - religious ascetics. It wasn't until later that laymen (non-monks) were permitted into the sangha. Mahayana was less strict, so it went further. I once heard an interesting point about Theraveda - their monks were bound to only have two robes, so it was difficult for them to pass the Himalayas, thus impeding their progress.
As for Shaolin borrowing from other arts, that's probable, but we still think of it as the symbolic founder.
Yes Gene, that is true. The thervada school held that one could only become enlightened through the monastic experience and the complete release from worldly bonds. The lay people could only make a choice to either enter the monastic experience to move towards buddhahood or to remain in suffering.
With Mahayana, the doors were flung wide open and the concepts of meritorious living through deeds was spread and the idea that any lay person could achive a higher level of conciousness and become a boddhissatva or eventually a buddha. This path was no longer denied to the common person as it was and is still with the Therevada practice.
This is what made Buddhism really spread and much more palpable for the common person. Therevada still spread and I agree, it's approach is closer to aseticism than the Mahayana school.
It is interesting to note that Mahayana is north and east predominantly geographically speaking in it's strong holds while therevada is south and west in it's.
Of course today, Buddhism encircles the globe and has become intricately entwined with many cultures through it's wide variety of
practitioners.
The Shaolin not only borrowed, but refined and improved many martial practices and were caretakers and codifiers of the martial arts in China for a very long time. This openess to accepting all sorts of practices is part of what makes Shaolin Kungfu so huge in scope.
3 lifetimes to learn it it is said, therefore one can't know it all. THis fits well with Ch'an.
cheers
You know, I spent time with studying with the Saddhus in Rishikesh and I felt there was this clear progression from the hindu aescetic tradition to Buddhism. It's the origin of Buddha's middle way. From that, I can see the progression to Zen. Hinduism has an incredible pantheon of Gods - insane and colorful - each with personalities to watch over their flock. Then Buddhism cuts it down to one incarnation of the divine that resides in all. Then Zen cuts away the Buddha. If you meet the Buddha on the road, you know what to do.
It's all about reductionalism - occum's razor applied to spiritual practice. Use the sword of manjushri to cut away the delusion. The trick is, and this brings us somewhat back OT, not to cut away too much, not to cut out the compassion. So you have to keep Kuanyin in the equation of Buddhism, even though she's a like this pantheistic throwback, a madonna figure, a universal symbol. But she's the compassion, and if you miss that, if your spiritual practice lacks compassion, you may easily fall to the dark side.
OK, that's a bit of of a spiritual rant - talk about a thread jack. I'll just say one more thing, if you want to get to the roots, the real roots, read the Mahabharata.
Gene, Kung Lek
Hi guys, what does compassion mean to a buddhist monk?
canglong-
provided there isn't a punchline to your query, :-)
I am not a buddhist monk, so I can't tell you what it means to one, however, compassion would mean the same to you and I as a buddhist monk.
To act on your compassion is within the 8 fold path. Simply to assist or aid in the release of someone elses suffering in whatever way it is manifest. Remove suffering and Give Joy is teh crux of compassion through right action/effort.
cheers
The root word of compassion - passion - derives from the latin passio which actually means 'suffer'. It's archaic usage implyied physical suffering or martyrdom, specifically in reference to Jesus on the cross. It evolved to refer to any strong emotion - ie. to suffer with love, to suffer with lust. When you add the 'comp' prefix, it means "to suffer with". One of the main precepts of Buddhism is to understand that all life is suffering. The practice of compassion is that of suffering with the other sentient beings of the world, whether it be your dying parents or cattle with mad cow disease. Kuanyin symoblizes compassion to Buddhist for her great acts of martyrdom and her ability to hear all the worls'd suffering. This is the path of the Bodhisattva - you don't take that final step to Buddhahood until you can bring all sentient beings with you. It is a difficult path, but a potent tonic for what ails the world, and the true calling of anyone who would call themselves Shaolin.
I just take it to kick ass!
well Hello.....nice words Gene :pQuote:
Originally posted by GeneChing
It is a difficult path, but a potent tonic for what ails the world, and the true calling of anyone who would call themselves Shaolin. [/B]
Thanks guys that was well thought out and written excellent definition and explaination. KL no, no punch line from me.