I think Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice for MMA

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Originally Posted by BigPandaBear

The vast majority of Judo schools are forced to teach sport rules because their dojos are subsidized by various athletic agencies. In places like that, you're going to be taught only sport Judo, not self-defense based Judo.

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Agree with you there.

In one Judo forum, I suggested that Judo should have no-Gi training along with Gi training. My suggestion made many forum members unhappy and was treated as an attack to their Judo system. To move from Gi training to no-Gi training is not an easy task. When you don't have Gi to pull, many of your throwing skills won't work. You have to find equal replacement for your Gi pulling and that will require some

- extra grip strength training, and
- knowledge about the proper "pulling contact points".

Of course the Judo

- sleeve hold can be replaced by arm wrapping,
- lapel hold can be replaced by single neck tie.
- ...

by one still needs a lot of training to be able to replace it.

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Originally Posted by BigPandaBear

Nonsense. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu will teach you better transitions than Judo because they actively incorporate striking into their takedowns and ground fighting. They'll also teach you how to throw and grapple someone without the gi.

Judo won't.

The vast majority of Judo schools are forced to teach sport rules because their dojos are subsidized by various athletic agencies. In places like that, you're going to be taught only sport Judo, not self-defense based Judo. A prime example of this problem is wrist locks. In Judo, wrist locks are illegal, so guess what? You're not going to learn wrist locks. On the other hand, wrist locks are legal in even sport Bjj, so you're going to learn wrist locks in Bjj no matter where you go.

Gjj gyms are privately owned, so they can teach whatever they want. This includes Self Defense, No-gi, competition, etc. Some schools even offer other arts like MT kickboxing. Renzo's school for example does this, and they actively incorporate it into their Bjj (because of his MMA background). Again, you're not going to find that in a Judo dojo.

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But that wasn’t your point was it, you originally said

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The problem with Judo is that the prejudices and goals of its founder permenantly limits the style from achieving the amount of variation you see in Bjj. That's why I said that Bjj will always stay one step ahead. Judo was created to be a sport

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Which simply isnt true, Judo evolved into a sport once the Olympics accepted it in, against Kano’s wishes and what happened is that it evolved from what he wished it to be into a sport, Just the way BJJ evolved from GJJ into largely something helio did not want it to be, a grappling sport with rules points etc and not a self defence art
You also said

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The difference is that there's still thousands of GJJ schools world wide.

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Which simply isnt true, there are thousands of BJJ schools, which do not teach the GJJ self-defense aspect, 90% don’t teach the knife defence, standing arm locks and standing wrist locks that GJJ has they simply only care about the sport aspect, just as the majority of judo schools don’t teach the striking aspect of the art and concentrateon the sport aspect
You also said

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Again, there are thousands of Gracie schools who teach old school Bjj, and there are zero Judo schools teaching striking or old school Judo. How can you say that its the same situation?

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Which again is not true, there are thousands of BJJ schools teaching BJJ not GJJ for self defense, and there are judo associations which teach both the striking and obsolete aspects of sport judo, such as leg locks, leg attack takedowns, etc IBC is one such organization in the UK. They spent more time on the original 10 katas of Judo, three of which have striking, knife and baton defense and standing choke and lock defences
How many teach judo like this, not may but the number is not zero, and as a percentage its probably the same number compared to how many BJJ clubs bother with the self defence syllabus created by the Gracie’s
The vast majority of Judo schools are OL clubs, just as the vast majority of BJJ are sport orientated schools
You also said

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Nonsense. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu will teach you better transitions than Judo because they actively incorporate striking into their takedowns and ground fighting.

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Which is probably true, but BJJ is not GJJ, and the number of GJJ schools is relatively small, its not thousands its probably not even hundreds at least not taught like how helio wanted it to be taught
BJJ which is the art that GJJ has turned into is not as good as judo for its transitions, the majority of BJJ clubs start their rolling from their knees, have little active throw training and spend 90% of their time on the floor rolling without strikes, now they might have a separate MMA class, but that isnt BJJ its MMA. The standard thing that happens when two people of similar training (a judoka and a BJJ player) meet is that the judo guy gets the throws 9 times out of 10 and the BJJ guy wins on the floor 9 times out of 10, from a self defence purpose on the street where there arent mats to land on and miost people cant breakfall which skill is better to have?

Has Judo become too restrictive and sport orientated, of course it has but this is NOT what Kano envisaged or wanted and anyone saying it was what he intended is simply ignoring facts, and whilst we can all acknowledge this is what has happened we also have to acknowledge that BJJ is going through exactly the same thing: butt scooting, pulling guard, extensive use of half guard, 50/50 guard upside down guard, x guard etc are all sport orientated positions and strategies and not useful for self defense

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Originally Posted by Frost

Has Judo become too restrictive and sport orientated, of course it has but this is NOT what Kano envisaged or wanted and anyone saying it was what he intended is simply ignoring facts, and whilst we can all acknowledge this is what has happened we also have to acknowledge that BJJ is going through exactly the same thing: butt scooting, pulling guard, extensive use of half guard, 50/50 guard upside down guard, x guard etc are all sport orientated positions and strategies and not useful for self defense

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And again, the difference being that there are hundreds if not thousands of Gracie JJ schools and affiliates around the world still teaching old school Gjj. You could argue that there is a split between Gjj and Bjj, which is becoming more evident via Rickson Gracie starting his own federation, but to say that Bjj has become as sport oriented as Judo is simply ignoring the facts. There is no large opposing force against sport Judo like there is a large opposing force against sport Bjj. In other words, there are no Gracies in Judo attempting to pull it back to the roots of the style like there is in Bjj.

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

Agree with you there.

In one Judo forum, I suggested that Judo should have no-Gi training along with Gi training. My suggestion made many forum members unhappy and was treated as an attack to their Judo system. To move from Gi training to no-Gi training is not an easy task. When you don't have Gi to pull, many of your throwing skills won't work. You have to find equal replacement for your Gi pulling and that will require some

- extra grip strength training, and
- knowledge about the proper "pulling contact points".

Of course the Judo

- sleeve hold can be replaced by arm wrapping,
- lapel hold can be replaced by single neck tie.
- ...

by one still needs a lot of training to be able to replace it.

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Exactly, and unlike Judo, Bjj has been doing that stuff for years.

I once attended a Judo club with a friend, and during randori I did a double leg takedown, and got scolded by the instructor for using an "illegal" technique.

People who believe that such a restrictive art is ever going to replace Bjj is simply fooling themselves. Bjj is eclectic by nature, Judo is rigid by nature. Hell, the founder of Judo restricted groundwork for god's sake.

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Originally Posted by BigPandaBear

And again, the difference being that there are hundreds if not thousands of Gracie JJ schools and affiliates around the world still teaching old school Gjj. You could argue that there is a split between Gjj and Bjj, which is becoming more evident via Rickson Gracie starting his own federation, but to say that Bjj has become as sport oriented as Judo is simply ignoring the facts. There is no large opposing force against sport Judo like there is a large opposing force against sport Bjj. In other words, there are no Gracies in Judo attempting to pull it back to the roots of the style like there is in Bjj.

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Freestyle Judo

If you really want judo the way it was SUPPOSED to be then it would basically be MMA with a gi or the Daidojuku.

Here is a excerpt about Maeda, the guy that brought Judo to Brasil:
Maeda thought of judo as the ultimate form of self-defense. To him, western arts such as boxing and wrestling were only games with a set of rules. Maeda's strategy in an anything goes fight was to set his opponent up with an elbow or low kick. He would then go for a throw and then finish his opponent off on the ground with a choke or joint lock.

and:
http://mancave.cbslocal.com/2013/11/...maeda-mitsuyo/

http://books.google.ca/books?id=UHYc...0punch&f=false

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/57947...m#.VLsapkfF8ZM

Watch How Different Jiu-Jitsu is when Sparring with Strikes

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In the majority of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu academies around the world, they will teach you the sport aspect of Jiu-Jitsu. This means no strikes, and little self defense, but more focus on the modern sweeps, guard passes etc..
We all watch MMA and have seen Jiu-Jitsu in an MMA fight (think of the first UFC’s), but what does a Jiu-Jitsu sparring session look like when you add strikes to the equation?
A Gracie Jiu-Jitsu black belt under Royler Gracie, Moshe Kaitz teaches Jiu-Jitsu the old fashion way: Defending against strikes. When you add striking, there is no room for most types of modern guard that may leave you exposed to strikes.

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article about it linked above, video below:

http://youtu.be/Cn8-Qe30RBw

I find this lost kata to be really cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEBUPcWYdck

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UFC FORCED TO WITHDRAW SUPPORT TO EUROPEAN JUDO CHAMPIONSHIPS
February 13, 2015

London, UK – UFC, the world’s premier mixed martial arts organisation, is disappointed and saddened to announce it’s withdrawal of support to the European Judo Championships, following a threat from the European Judo Union (EJU) to cancel the event if UFC was to remain involved.

The EJU threatened to cancel the international event just eight weeks before it was due to take place on 9-12th April at the Emirates Arena in Glasgow, Scotland, possibly jeopardising many athletes’ journey to the 2016 Rio Olympic Games and harming the legacy of the Commonwealth Games, which took place in Glasgow in July 2014.

The UFC has agreed to step back and withdraw support from the event in the interest of Judo athletes and fans but continue to support British Judo and other combat sports federations and associations, remaining hopeful that the situation may be resolved in the future.

David Allen, Senior Vice President and General Manager UFC EMEA said: “We love to see sport thrive and athletes prosper, which is why the UFC prides itself on supporting all combat sports both mixed and individual disciplines. Our aim was to help Judo reach a new audience, increase promotion, help to sell tickets and create a buzz around the European judo Championships. It is disappointing to see that the European Judo Union cannot see the benefits of collaboration and celebration of all sports.”

Through their association with the British Combat Sports Federation, UFC was due to support the European Judo Championships with branding, marketing and also promotion of the event to their global audience of millions of engaged mixed martial artists – of which Judo is a founding discipline.

Just one week ago, mixed martial artists from Glasgow, one of whom started his career as a Scottish Judo champion, teamed up with Judo athletes at a press conference to begin promotion of the Championships. Robert Whiteford was thrilled to be involved in the event and said: “It’s superb to see the cross collaboration between mixed martial arts and individual combat sports, this is the development of sport and it’s important to embrace it. Sharing techniques, skills and knowledge is important for personal, professional and physical development. The UFC’s involvement in supporting the European Judo Championships cements that forward thinking.”

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Another development in the MMA/Judo luv affair...:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by GeneChing

Another development in the MMA/Judo luv affair...:rolleyes:

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Point - Match - Win, goes to Gene Ching.

The EJF (and by extension, IJF) has officially killed Judo. It was a tough battle, but Judo cannot be saved from their stupidity and short sightedness. May BJJ adopt the many throws of Judo and not follow their sport oriented path to destruction.

Judo is and has been for a very long time, its own worse enemy.

Inclusion into the Olympics is the path to ruination for Asian MA (Judo, TKD). The ones who avoid that association tend to maintain much higher quality standards, IMO.

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Originally Posted by MightyB

Point - Match - Win, goes to Gene Ching.

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I'd like to thank the Academy, my agent and all the nacho ninjettes that put me here. ;)

Judo was my first martial art. I moved on before my teenage years and never competed in it so I'm actually pretty naive about Judo politrix beyond chatting with some of the Judo coaches and athletes that come through our door.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Inclusion into the Olympics is the path to ruination for Asian MA (Judo, TKD). The ones who avoid that association tend to maintain much higher quality standards, IMO.

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Unfortunately, you seem to be correct and, wrestling aside, it seems to apply to other MA as well ( though ruination may be to strong a word, pussification may be better).