Looking for Info on a Win Chun and White Crane Sifus in my Area

Hi Guys:
First the reason I'm posting this is there are way to many frauds out there theses days. So if i'm going to pay for Instruction I want Quality Instruction. I am in my 50's and have been diagnosed with type2 diabetes and was forced to retire because of diabetic peripheral Neuropathy. I refuse and I mean refuse to allow this to kill me. I had heard that studies show tai chi can help neuropathy. I thought to myself if I'm not going to let it kill me I might as well learn to defend myself as well say with a southern style like wing Chun or even Fujian White Crane. I began to search a 35 mile radius of my city of Denham Spring's, La.

I found 2 the first is was a, Master Yajun “Thomas” Zhuang, who has been teaching, competing in, and researching Chinese martial arts (Wushu) for more than 30 years. His career began at age eight when he was selected from thousands of children to attend the Jiangsu Wushu Institute. At 17, he continued his study of Wushu culture and philosophy at Nanjing University and eventually joined its faculty. I went to talk to him about Training in Tai Chi, Qigong and the Wing Chun Style which by the way he just added to his curriculum of shaolin Kung fu. When I asked who his teacher was he said I should not ask that since he went to the university and learned from professionals and he majored in Wushu. That rose a red flag to me, maybe i'm wrong if I am can someone explain this university stuff first time i ever heard of it?
http://www.taichiperson.com/index.html

The second is a mysterious one His name is Lou Illar of the White Crane Studios in Baton Rouge. This gentleman, if you read his web site has more accomplishment than I could even describe or list here but, the funny thing is no one has ever heard of him except locally. Seems to me with all his accomplishments nationally and internationally there would be someone who would acknowledge his great accomplishments but, for the life of me I can't find them. What set me off on this journey was when the wife and I went about a year ago to visit with him and when asked who was his teacher of his particular style? We my wife and I sat there and heard so many names it was hard to keep up in fact one I believe was his philosophy teacher in college. The end result was we left the White Crane Studio More confused than when we arrived.
http://www.whitecranestudio.com/index.htm

If anyone has any info on either of these men good or bad please share. Why am I doing this to protect people from frauds. Basically As Master Zhuang say's i'll let the professionals (YOU of Kung fu and Tai Chi magazine forum) decide. To tell you the truth I'm so frustrated with this going around in circles that I'm about to wash my hands of Martial Arts completely so please your my last hope.

Thanks and God Bless

In regards to Zhuang's background, you are coming from an old-school Sifu format while he is coming from the PRC training format.

He may indeed have one or two teachers he was close to, but the way it works is that kids may be selected for wushu programs at an early age. Then, they continue on through competitions and eventually into college. They major in Physical Education - Wushu Specialty - sort of butchered approach to the name of such a program but you get the idea.

Unless you are dealing with a person that went to graduate school - as in an MA degree or a Phd in their field of study, asking about a particular teacher might be strange. That would be like approaching someone who graduated from Berkley with a BS in Computer Science and asking who their teacher was. During their time in college, they had many teachers. Some more than once. Others only one semester.

For example, the undergrad programs used to require all students to take a semester minimum in Taijiquan. That would be 24 Posture Taijiquan. I forget now if there was a second class for 32 Posture Taijijian or if that was in the other class. So, everyone had a limited but functional knowledge of Taijiquan...but may not be a specialist in it. Qi Gong might be handled in seminars or in other such classes. The main emphasis for their time of study would usually be more in the extrenal - Changquan or Nanquan areas with the Nandu sets. Some might branch out and learn some traditional styles, but it may not be required.

A better question to ask would be areas of study, how many terms for a style, and what they liked, did well in, emphasized.

Sort of like asking an Electrical Engineer with a BSEE "What areas of engineering did you focus on or did you do a mostly generic EE approach for undergraduate study?"

Wow ok so with hundreds of different styles in Kung fu alone, your saying that they, those who attend this Jiangsu Wushu Institute is, say a grade school or high school for Wushu. Not a particular style but a mis mash of many different styles. When you graduate there you go to college (Nanjing University) and study a major interest such as Nan Quan or Chang quan and a minor in Tai chi. Basically picking the styles to study per semester till graduation. So to go on and really specialize in a specific system he would apply for graduate school for that system. So if i'm understanding this right this is a way to combine all kung fu into one system if you will, But what happens to the traditional way of kung fu where it takes a lifetime to master one system. I can see where this progress in times could be the end of the romantic and traditional way of learning.:( I hope this is not so for styles such as Wing Chun, Fujian White Crane and other's. Even the temples of Shaolin had many different styles and systems but in the end if you were a monk you may have dabbled in other styles but he specialized only in one for only one life is what he had. Also i must say that according to Master Zhuang's site he went on to become part of the faculty at Nanjing University where He worked on the effects of Taichi exercise on patients with Peripheral Neuropathy and Parkinson's disease.

Thank you for your fine explanation of the topic and must say a very interesting concept.

Sort of yes and no. What you sort of describe is not that much different than what was envisioned for the Nanjing Central Guoshu Institute back before WWII. In that, there were a number of teachers from different styles. Some of the students might end up having a depth of knowledge and training in one style or another, but many learned the standardized sets and approaches. If you look at many of the people from the ROC (Taiwan), their version of Long Fist often traces back to Nanjing. For example, they often teach Lien Bu Quan, Gungli Quan, Yi Lu Mei Fu, Er Lu Mei Fu, Shao Hu Ien, Bun Bu Quan...

The Yi and Er of Mei Fu Quan were there because they served as entry level into norther approaches. The last 2 were originally Mantis routines but being filtered through the Guoshu Institute, they were modified to have a more Long Fist flavoring. Most of the Taiwan trained Long Fist people come from this lineage and set of routines.

With the PRC, they developed standard routines and a somewhat standard curriculum. In some cases, they would create a new routine - Wu Bu Quan - 5 Stance Fist - might be an example of that. Basic routine teaching flow from one stance to another - could be used by northern or southern styles. There were others that were "borrowed" from traditional systems - for example, Cha Quan - usually #4 Cha Quan is well known. Weapons sets would be the same way.

For Taijiquan, you have 24 Posture - created in the mid 1950s. It IS based heavily on Yang style but has other influences and some changes that would never be found in Yang. But, while many people do it, a huge percentage of them erroneously claim it is 24 Posture YANG...nope.

Later, they developed 48 Posture...then in the 1980's and 1990's, they developed competition routines for Sun, Yang, Chen, and Wu styles. There was also the 42 Posture Competition Routine as well as the 88 Posture routine (the 88 is basically traditional Yang modified to use the rock step, wave hands, Grasp Sparrow's Tail, and so on approaches from 24 Posture - but with the sequence from the Yang long form).

So, a person studying wushu in public school would be taught the basics and standardized routines. They would compete with these since judges would prefer to see "similar" things - easier to judge. On finishing regular school, the desire would then be to attend one of the Universities that have degrees in Wushu. There, they would learn more. Some MIGHT find a teacher in the college that knows a traditional style and become a close student of them. Others would take classes from everyone available. Not unlike the Nanjing approach - biggest difference is that the modern schools focus on the art and competition rather than keeping the martial aspects intact...unless of course, you are doing Sanshou as well.

With a Bachelors degree, you have good skills and a fairly well rounded knowledge of a number of areas. You are prepared to coach in public schools. Then, if you get into the graduate programs, you get more specialization. For example, Madam Wang Jurong from the Shanghai College of Physical Culture developed the Master of Arts degree program for Taijiquan. The first two students awarded MA degrees in China in Taijiquan were from her college and were her grad students - a college type program. At that level and with their Taijiquan emphasis, they would know the traditional routines and methods as well. (Madam Wang moved to the US before she completed developing the Phd degree program for Taijiquan.).

So, if you have someone teaching at a University, they might have a degree in just Wushu...or an associated BA or MA or whatever in a related field like Kinesiology. Being on faculty, they would have the opportunity to work with other researchers on things like Qi Gong or Taijiquan and chronic health issues.

That is sort of like a Med School wanting to research swimming and health and going to the Phys Ed dept. in a college and partnering with one of the instructors of Phd professors who was a very knowledgeable swimming coach.

The main thing is that the idea of Master and Disciple for the modern PRC schooling approach probably doesn't apply. In fact, the term Shifu or Sifu may not be used at all - Teacher, Coach, or Laoshr would be more common...and there would not be one teacher for a given student...but many.

Wow Thank you that is by far the best explanation i have read yet. I still believe it is sad though that traditional kung fu may just be on the verge of extinction. The Martial art aspect of Kung Fu was just one of the attributes that was appealing. There was also the Mysticism, Romanticism as well as the actual History of the style that was appealing as well. Sad to see it go.

"I still believe it is sad though that traditional kung fu may just be on the verge of extinction."

Well, it has been dying for a LONG time. The death is mainly from self-inflicted wounds. Case in point, some teachers say everything is "a secret technique". Some play up "deadly" and all sorts of other BS and are surprised when the students they get are not too bright....

Some don't do the simple math. You have a well known teacher. That teacher claims to have taught 1000 students. How many of those students actually got the complete teaching with all of the nuance? MAYBE 100...probably less. So, you now have a student of that famous teacher open a school in say...the US. You have a 10% chance that the student opening the school is one of the ones that got the full teaching. On top of that, you have to deal with "Am I one of the ones that will get the full teaching?"

So, each generation has less than 10% good...and a LOT of garbage. But, you have people that will argue about this or that teacher being qualified or unqualified...good or bad... How do most people find a teacher? Well, before computers, word of mouth, a friend, the yellow pages, they happened on the school. After the internet, add google to that list. So, you have someone that doesn't know - finding a teacher from other ways ---and they don't know - and now they will argue and fight about their teacher being good and qualified...

You want the art to continue, you have to accept that you either teach very few and teach all...and a lot of what you teach will be lost...or you have students who are less than serious...and you teach them. You teach those that want only the flash..only for health, only for a hobby...and then you find a few that shine and teach them all...and hope it works.

But, you first have to stop all of the myths and legends....