Paradox

In the 1st clip Chiba grabs on his opponent's wrist and Chiba can manipulate his opponent nicely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMJ-Dl4eJu8

In this 2nd clip, Liu's opponent grabs on Liu's wrist and Liu can also manipulate his opponent nicely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OomkogFuhOw

What should happen when Chiba's hands grab on Liu's wrists? Who will manipulate whom? Also what if Brendan Lai grabs on Liu's wrist, Who will manipulate whom?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYL9...ature=youtu.be

From Liu's point of view, the grabbing won't work. From both Chiba's and Brendan's point of view the grab work just fine. If one is right, the other one must be wrong. Do you see the "paradox" here?

paradox

if its not in form, is not real kung fu

wrist qin na is not in forms

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

In the 1st clip Chiba grabs on his opponent's wrist and Chiba can manipulate his opponent nicely.

In this 2nd clip, Liu's opponent grabs on Liu's wrist and Liu can also manipulate his opponent nicely.

What should happen when Chiba's hands grab on Liu's wrists? Who will manipulate whom? Also what if Brendan Lai grabs on Liu's wrist, Who will manipulate whom?

From Liu's point of view, the grabbing won't work. From both Chiba's and Brendan's point of view the grab work just fine. If one is right, the other one must be wrong. Do you see the "paradox" here?

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All in context

1. a ki do, your end point is wrist control. then arm control.

2. neutralization: you use circular moves to neutralize the opponent's fixed holding.

3. In mantis, you are only temporally hooking downward the opponent's wrist. You then free the same hand to deliver a strike.

You just open the opponent's door.

:cool:

It's only a paradox because of the limits you set in your conditional statements.

In reality, like all fights, it is the skill of the combatants. Sensei Chiba's method works for him, Liu Shifu's method works for him. Put the two legends together, who knows. I'd pay to see that exchange.
I'd put my money on Liu Shifu, but I'm biased. He's my teacher's teacher.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by bawang

paradox

if its not in form, is not real kung fu

wrist qin na is not in forms

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From 十八叟拳.

Attachment 9309

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Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

What should happen when Chiba's hands grab on Liu's wrists? Who will manipulate whom? Also what if Brendan Lai grabs on Liu's wrist, Who will manipulate whom?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYL9...ature=youtu.be

From Liu's point of view, the grabbing won't work. From both Chiba's and Brendan's point of view the grab work just fine. If one is right, the other one must be wrong. Do you see the "paradox" here?

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This paradox is based on looking at isolated technique or tactic and not strategy.

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Originally Posted by SPJ

3. In mantis, you are only temporally hooking downward the opponent's wrist. You then free the same hand to deliver a strike.

You just open the opponent's door.

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Yes, Mantis doesn't grab just to grab. It is momentary control so you can attack. The training and skill is in how briefly you control in order to attack.

Brendan Lai would yell at us for grabbing too hard or too long. "You are hanging on for dear life. You are already dead!"

I tell the students, "You are like a dog chasing a car. You caught the car, and now you don't know what to do with it."

If you grab you hit. If you are grabbed, you hit. Instantaneously.

In the example from 十八叟拳, you counter a grab with a simultaneous wrist lock and shin kick.

Agree @-N-

Add; It depends where the persons mind is.

If their mind is focused on their grab, you will not have the strength to reverse it. If their mind is focused on striking you immediately after their grab, you will not have time to reverse it. If you are struggling together with both hands, and your opponents mind is struggling also, then these techniques become useful.

There is no difference between grabbing them and them grabbing you, in both situations you have become linked like a chain. The outcome depends on whose mind is lucid enough to take advantage of this.

@BaWang, There are tonnes of wrist manipulations in forms, every style, all the time.

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Originally Posted by RenDaHai

@BaWang, There are tonnes of wrist manipulations in forms, every style, all the time.

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He knows that....he's just being difficult. :rolleyes:

I don't see it as a paradox, they're all just different parts of the same thing. I think the most important thing is to train all three strategies.

#2 without the "flopping" is the idea of using leverage to escape (wrestlers drill this). The person in actuality would let go as soon as you provided leverage, that's why in clip #1, you see the Sensei control and seize the hand before he applies the leverage, but - a wrestler, or striker would just use the leverage of #2 to escape as quickly as possible and hit you - so in #3, the idea is not to mess around with trying to seize and apply leverage because you can just hit him before he hits you. Then if you still have his hand or arm you could apply leverage.

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Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette

He knows that....he's just being difficult. :rolleyes:

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you dare roll your eyes at me, you cur.

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Originally Posted by bawang

you dare roll your eyes at me, you cur.

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There are tons of curs in forums, every one, all the time.

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Originally Posted by bawang

you dare roll your eyes at me, you cur.

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First time I've been called that..