John Painter: Real Bagua Skills?

The recent thread on the fake photos at John Painter's Jiuliong website brought repeated statements--and not just from his defenders--that John Painter has "real" skill in baguazhang. In talking with a variety of people, though, I get a whole spectrum of responses. Some come from people who've only seen his videos, not really trained with him or even met him in person. For example:

from http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/epmm1991.htm

"The only two demos I did not find to be in any way impressive , was John Painter doing a Pa Kua Applications demo - he looks like someone desperately trying to pass his Aikido brown belt test- and a Shuai Chiao demo by Hsing Ping Jeng and Lin Chih Young involving a lot of stumbling about and loss of balance. Maybe they should have invited Matt Furey to demonstrate." (a review of a 1991 video on which Painter was featured along with other martial artists).

The other end of the spectrum shows great respect for the guy as a skillful teacher who can demonstrate what he talks about (for example, C.D. Lee, one of Painter's students).

What I'd like to hear more of are from people or sources who have actually met or "crossed hands" with John Painter--not just watched his videos, and who are not beholden to him as a student. In other words, some kind of objective account of Mr. Painter's baguazhang skills.

My own current opinion is that, while his baguazhang history probably fundamentally fraudulent, he may well have picked up very good baguazhang skills through studying others, talking with other teachers at the multitude of multi-art seminars like the old Tai Chi Farm events or Taste of China, etc., and through diligent practice acquired something at least resembling baguazhang skill.

Again, this is about Mr. Painter's skills, not his history or poor Photoshop work.

I haven't seen enough Ba GUa to compare. Thought my master has already shown me things to watch for when judging good Ba Gua.

What I have seen here on this board though is a lot of judging and dissing of people. Unless someone has traded hands with the person, it is quite unfair to make a judgement. Maybe he's hiding his technique. Maybe he just wants to sell some videos to kooks.

I didn't even click on the URL and see, just thought I'd say this because I've thought it for a while. Individuals should be given the benefit of the doubt unless they have been matched. Styles, like Wing Chun, they should be made fun of thought at every opportunity.;)

No comment on anybody's skill, because I don't know.

Here is something I do know:

That video review site contains a warning that their reviewers are not qualified to review "internal arts". That is their own statement (not mine), so I really wouldn't look to them as a solid source to evaluate a neijia instructor's skills.

Baguatc:

Are you really serious about finding first hand objective accounts of Dr. Painters skills? If you are then that is easy to find, but you are going to have to have the interest and find the information out by working for it yourself, not relying on this forum.

If you are not willing to take these steps I will recommend on your own time and effort, then you will be seen on this forum as nothing more than a begginner with no skills, that is trying to Inquisition a Shifu with 30 yrs experience. So here are my suggestions:

1. Call Shifu Painter and speak with him. He should be able to direct your inquiry to the right people. That may be too confrontational for you, as Dr. Painter reads these forums with his name on them.

2. I think this one is good. Go to the website, and look at the section where all the teachers are. It lists their experience and usually their emails. Email them, and investigate where you might find objective sources. That will take some time and effort on your part, and show your sincerity. Plus you may find some really good information on Bagua while you are at it. Also, while you are there, read about each one's experience. It is actually quite interesting.

My only other point is that going to visit him might or might not help, as your profile says you are a beginner. What that ojectively means to me, is that you may not know the difference; but what you feel might really blow you away. Without high level experience to compare against, how would you know anything about what happened? Maybe, maybe not.

**

Does anyone have that video? Is it still for sale?

Welcome to KFO. A programmer from Canada Huh? You wouldn't by chance be the one responsible for Dr. Painters website, would you?;)

As far as this thread goes...Why bother? baguatc has already stated he is a beginner. He has said on the other thread he would travel. Only one way to find out bud. Go to the mountain. Even if the reviewers were qualified to judge which they are not, I have yet to see a teacher not modify things for a video so they could later tell whether you had gotten the real deal or not. This is also a word of warning to all the video practitioners out there. You can not tell anything from a video! As far as your opinion stated, where do you think bagua came from in the first place?

which is, can anyone with first-hand experience of Mr. Painter's baguazhang besides one of his regular students (e.g., C.D. Lee)share what they experienced?

With respect to my own experience: (1) "beginner" in baguazhang, yes, but not necessarily in martial arts generally; (2) I've played with a high-level teacher from Beijing and a couple of pretty decent teachers here in the U.S., and am confident that I'll know high-level baguazhang when I see it/feel it.

With respect to Painter or his students, I know which ones I'm likely to be able to visit when my travels take me there. I'm going to be open-minded and open about it, contact them in advance and approach them courteously. In the meantime, I wanted to hear from people who've actually met the man and seen/felt his stuff.

Thanks for the replies to date.

The one and only time I have seen Mr. Painter in public was at the AAU Chinese Martial Arts National Championship tournament in Tulsa back in the early 90's (not sure which year it was, 91 - 93 somewhere).

First he comes walking into the tournament wearing his HONORARY Texas Ranger badge on his suitcoat (western cowboy style cut no less), and packing a sidearm. This kind of turned me off, since it was well known that his whole "Captain" thing was just a nice little thing done by the Rangers in gratitude for work that Mr. Painter did with them. My father was a police officer for 20 years, and had never heard of an honorary anything being given the right to publicly use rank titles, and was pretty sure that his sidearm was a privately purchased and licensed one, NOT part of his honorary recognition...

Eventually, he either demo'd or competed with his bagua (can't remember which). From what I remember, it was not all that good, at least not as good as everyone had said it was going to be. This has been some years ago, and I only had about 6 years experience at the time, so perhaps my judgement was inaccurate. My teacher, however, also commented that Mr. Painter's bagua was lacking, though I can't recall if he specified any details...

Personally, I have trouble with folks that try to hang their reputations on training they have conducted for law enforcement, military, etc., as some kind of indicator of their skill. WHO you teach is relatively unimportant when evaluating your OWN skill. If who you teach counts toward your own skill, then I have been teaching exclusively to the military since 1995! I must be incredible! I also teach Military Police, so that makes me even better then incredible... ;) And those that try to take credit for advanced martial skills due to military service are scamming the ignorant consumer as well. I have been in the Army for a decade now, having served as an Infantryman, a Cavalry Scout, a sniper, a mortar crewman, and other positions. NONE of them contributed significantly toward my martial arts empty handed skills. I can shoot pretty good, though... :D

If he has skill, fine. Go with that and jam it down the public's throat. But referring to himself as Doctor or Captain in conjunction with his martial arts skills, when those titles are not related in any way to his martial training, seems to smack of what is termed on Japanese bulletin boards as "bad budo."

Just my 2 yen, and given the current exchange rate, that ain't much...