Just wondering if anybody here practices gun and knife disarms or control techniques? How do you train them, what do you train, what's the worst techniques you've seen and the best.
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Just wondering if anybody here practices gun and knife disarms or control techniques? How do you train them, what do you train, what's the worst techniques you've seen and the best.
Interesting topic. The thing with knives is that if the wielder has any skill, you ARE going to get cut. The only thing you can do is minimise the damage you receive before you disable them.
With guns, I honestly have to say that if someone is pointing a pistol at me and im not already in contact with their hand then their is NO WAY im gonna try and disarm them. Not unless they look away, take their finger off the trigger or do something else stupid.
Maybe the best option is to spot the weapon and stop them drawing it in the first place?
;)
We train in both.
One of the guys last night was telling me of another school he attended, where the knife defence still consisted of donward and upward X block against stabs....
If your opponent has a weapon and I don't, first thing which should come to my mind is NOT "how to fight him?" or "how to disarm him?" but "how to get the **** out here?". :)Quote:
Originally posted by Ether
Interesting topic. The thing with knives is that if the wielder has any skill, you ARE going to get cut. The only thing you can do is minimise the damage you receive before you disable them.
With guns, I honestly have to say that if someone is pointing a pistol at me and im not already in contact with their hand then their is NO WAY im gonna try and disarm them. Not unless they look away, take their finger off the trigger or do something else stupid.
Maybe the best option is to spot the weapon and stop them drawing it in the first place?
;)
Having said it, in some unlikely event that you are cornered in very small coridor, here is an advice. I do aikido a bit and we use knife attack a lot. Most important thing is not disarming but evasion, alway staying out of the line of attack and always maintaining the distance. And if the opponent overextend himself, then at that point we get hold of his arm and wrist (which is a bit dangerous) and try to control him using wrist, elbow or shoulder lock.
So basically, stay out and if possible, pick up anything you can use it as a weapon. then if there is a chance to grab his arm (which is rare if the guy only use knife to thrash) do so and don't ****ing let it go, but remember the most important thing you should be thinking is how to get the **** out.
grab the weapon bearing limb,fight like hell, put him on the ground, take his weapon. disarms, like jointlocks, work much better if you smash the opponant's face, break his ankle, slice him open(if you are aremed, if you aren't, hit him again)and slam his head on the ground.;)
@Vapour.
I agree on the 'not being there long' sentiment, but I would definately want to be sure of a good head start before turning my back on someone with a knife.
Besides, its all well and good if you actually know he has a knife before hand, but ive read (sorry, dont remember where) that most people dont know they are being attacked with a knife until they have been stabbed and see the blood. My personal experience certainly bears this out. When I was 15 I was stabbed by a friend (dont even ask!) with a small metal spike. I didnt even know he had it until i saw it covered in blood.
I've practised Aikido myself in the past (albeit only for two years) and although I like a lot of the knife defence techniques, they do ideally depend on having a lot of space. I would certainly agree with grabbing yourself a weapon, if time and circumstance permits but I do think that by the time you've turned to look for a weapon, you might already have had your ribs tickled!
I think cutter has a point (if very colorfully put!) that if you get an opportunity, dont give them even half a chance. I do know that if I ever get the upperhand against an armed attacker there will be A LOT of rending and tearing going on.
I dont think it can be overstated how hard it is to secure a trained knife wielders weapon arm though
Yes, we practice both in our dojo. Yes, knife and gun disarms are mostly flights of fancy. Why? Because it's a KNIFE and a GUN and all you have is a hand with some skin on it. Hardly a fair fight.
But we still practice 'em and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you realize their serious limitations.
Here's one drill we do that's nice for awareness:
Partner A turns his back. Partner B puts a knife on his person somewhere. Start with an obvious place, like the belt. A then turns and he has to simply spot the knife and take it, nothing else.
Of course the hiding places start getting less obvious. You can then start adding in various things - B moves around, B goes to draw the knife and A must check him, B has the knife dranw when A turns, etc
After a while you start picking up the body language, the most likely draw positions and so on,
I think one of the largest misconceptions is that an attacker that is "skilled" with a knife is more dangerous than a novice. In most street type situations, you will probably never even know if that person has a knife until you have been stabbed. Palming, behind the back, etc. Someone who is swinging erratically with a bladed object is just as, if not more, dangerous as someone who is "skilled" at knife teqniques. Don't overanalyze.
I used to teach disarms a lot more when I first started teaching. In eskrima, we covered a lot of knife and stick disarms. Some more plausible than others.
To my mind (and please bear in mind that I haven't been in any knife fights, obviously), the most plausible tactic is to punch the bicep of the opponent's weapon hand. It may not result in a disarm right off the bat. But it's a good start.
I've heard people say that if you're going to do that, you might just as well punch them in the head and be done with it. My thinking is that people slip punches to the head all the time. It's a very common tactic in boxing to slip a punch and counter to the ribs. Now, if that counter to the ribs is with a knife, that's pretty much the game right there.
I figure that even if my hit to the arm doesn't disarm him, or even hurt him, at least it's put a momentary roadblock between his knife and my soft bits.
Stuart B.
he shoots!...he scores!!!
A little de-fanging the snake Ap? :D
A good motto in relationship to the issue of knifes that I like is one called "disarm through pain". Meaning that disarms are attacks of opportunity. I don't mean joint locks, though that could be the case, except I don't have a lot of faith in the latter and consider them to be on the side of wishfull thinking as taking a knife away from a deranged, beserk, sweaty and maybe even bloody attacker to be somewhat on the remote side.
I mean with with blows intended to break up the forward drive of the attacker, to give the attacker something else to think about instead of just cutting up on you and hopefully take him/her out or drain enough energy out of him to get an escape route, that is if such a thing is possible, you may be pushed into a corner, be seated, in a car, crowded by furniture, whatever, which means you should practice deep in clinching range as well as largo mano attacks.
Don't play chase the blade and make sure to guard your centerline, your neck, your arteries like the brachial and radial in your arms, your femoral in your inner thigh, a lose of consciousness from a slashed brachial could be in effect in just over 30 seconds and death in over 2 minutes without medical attention to stunch the bleeding, if you are already oxygen deprived than the math could be much worse.
If I am able to clinch and hold the delivery system in practice while striking than great but otherwise I practice attacking the attacker, striking his head and neck ballisticaly, gouge or tiger claw your fingers into his eyes if possible even for just a flinch reaction, repeated blows to the weapon arm, low edge of boot kicks to the knee, knee strikes to the groin or even the inner or outer thigh, stomps to the foot/shin, cross-buttock sweeps and clinch throws if possible, basically just attack as you get the opportunity and as the situation dictates.
I practice this by using white crappy t-shirts, fencing or sparring masks, training knifes covered in lipstick/ink or just good old fashioned markers. Try it from different ranges like duelling range and close quarters, be creative in your situations and attack responses, have your attacker do a straight out bulldog blitz for 30 seconds to a minute and check yourself for damage after, and guage your reactions. It is fun stuff.
I also try to look at anything else around me that may be added to the mix quickly, a coat around a arm for extra protection or ass a whip, a chair or other enviromental object to fight back with, any projectiles to throw at the attacker.
Hope this helped at all.
btw-shooter, good post. Emotinal context:)
One more point- I think the trouble with the x-block is that people often imagine the defender just sitting there in the block. When I picture it done it is more like the x-movement of hubad. Either way if it stops somebody from thrusting a knife into your stomach and then you react, good for the old x-block.
I practice knife, handgun, and shotgun disarms (along with stick disarms.)
Disarm drills and flows are really just sensitivity drills, disarms happen, you dont go for them.
Even without a weapon, I go after the closest targets, attacking hands, biceps, knees, ankles, on in. Headhunters die.
:eek:
Black Jack, I call throwing stuff, "air support".
Whether closing or getting away, even if you don't actually have anything to throw, the pattern you present can buy you valuable time and space.