William C. C. Chen Tai Chi Chuan info?

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Originally Posted by TaiChiBob

Greetings..

I spent a day at a workshop with WCC Chen and at least an hour was spent developing the relaxed fist strike.. what we worked on was using a relaxed, almost open, hand traveling to its target.. almost as if you were trying to touch the target with the fingers.. then, just at the 'touch' the fingers curled quickly into a loose, but not hollow, fist.. the quick 'curling' sort of pulled the arm forward, snapping the 'unified and fluid' structure of the arm/hand into place at the point of contact.. as we became proficient at the strike we cut the distance down untill we were actually striking with power beginning from the point of touching with the finger-tips.. the drills were practiced on heavy bags, integrating full-body mechanics.. the increased speed and power became clearly evident.. i was treated to the 'demonstration' by connecting my shoulder to the opposite side of the heavy bag while WCC demonstrated the strike as it originated from his fingers touching the bag.. the impact moved me a couple of feet and my neck was sore the next day, for 70+ years of age WCC 'has it'...

Be well...

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Good Post:) I've been working on something like this for awhile now, not being concerned with the fist but rather just connecting the structure thru the elbow to express a powerful strike.

I find with the students I teach, they tend to make a tight fist right from the beginning of the movement, which makes them stiff and unable to use the VT power generation method.

I tell them to think of holding a egg or small bird in their palms when they strike, this relaxes their forearms, and allows them to lead their strike with their elbows, as per VT concept.

We develop the proper mechanics, then I have them hit the pad and bags to learn to make the fist at the last moment before contact. Hard to learn but worthwhile once it is learned correctly.

James

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Originally Posted by TaiChiBob

Greetings..

I spent a day at a workshop with WCC Chen and at least an hour was spent developing the relaxed fist strike.. what we worked on was using a relaxed, almost open, hand traveling to its target.. almost as if you were trying to touch the target with the fingers.. then, just at the 'touch' the fingers curled quickly into a loose, but not hollow, fist.. the quick 'curling' sort of pulled the arm forward, snapping the 'unified and fluid' structure of the arm/hand into place at the point of contact.. as we became proficient at the strike we cut the distance down untill we were actually striking with power beginning from the point of touching with the finger-tips.. the drills were practiced on heavy bags, integrating full-body mechanics.. the increased speed and power became clearly evident.. i was treated to the 'demonstration' by connecting my shoulder to the opposite side of the heavy bag while WCC demonstrated the strike as it originated from his fingers touching the bag.. the impact moved me a couple of feet and my neck was sore the next day, for 70+ years of age WCC 'has it'...

Be well...

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sounds more than reasonable when explained in this manner;

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Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

Sounds about right, I had the pleasure of one meeting him a few years ago with a mutual friend.
Very nice guy, totally down to earth, we spoke mostly about the practical application of Taiji.
He showed that "relaxed fist", I had seen it before done by Erle Montaigue ( Yeah, I know, bite me), it worked really well and had lots in common with what boxers are taught to do also, something that he himself mentioned.

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William was a competative boxer in Taiwan

even De La Hoya agrees with this, BTW:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...864438,00.html

THE PUNCH
1. SMOOTH START Keep your fist loose as you begin to swing, says De La Hoya. Tension just slows you down and tires you out.
2. TIGHT SQUEEZE When you're halfway to the target, clench to prep for landing.
3. POWER BOOST Just before impact, twist your fist for maximum force.

Sove very good posts about "loose fist".
Yang style TCC that I have learned uses "loose fist" but certainly not hollow. A hollow fist, as described here, is likely to get your hand broken.
Wu style that I have trained taught me the same thing.
"Closing" the fist at impact actually is done by extension of the muscles in the back of the fingers and forearm, not by contracting the inner muscles.
Muscular contraction, at any point of your body will actually lessen the amount of "force" you can exert during the punch, or anything else.
It is muscular expansion that will create "sung", not muscular contraction.
This is much easier said than done.
That line fairly well defines Tai Chi Chuan from beginning to end...

Cheers,
Bob

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Originally Posted by Bob Ashmore

"Closing" the fist at impact actually is done by extension of the muscles in the back of the fingers and forearm, not by contracting the inner muscles.

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that is impossible; the only way to actively close the fist is to fire your finger / wrist flexors; if you fire extensors, the fist opens; this is neurophysiological fact, there is no way it can be otherwise (it is possible to "close" the fist by doing wrist extension to end of range through something called tenodesis effect, but that is a passive response to hitting the limit of finger flexors)

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Originally Posted by Bob Ashmore

Muscular contraction, at any point of your body will actually lessen the amount of "force" you can exert during the punch, or anything else.

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this is a myth long-propagated by the internal crowd, that "correct" movement has no muscular contraction, that contracting muscles decreases power, etc.; the truth is that, without muscles contracting, there would be no movement, and also there would be no standing up; in fact, it's almost impossible not to have muscles firing at all times, because it's part of their basic programming when you are standing vertical in gravity; the idea that contracting muscles is somehow unnatural is just odd..
see, it's not that you are contracting or not, it's how you contract that is salient to taiji / internal / all martial arts
what is really being described here, is a situation where muscular contraction operates optimally; first, meaning that if you fire a given muscle (an agonist), it is not opposed by simultaneous contraction of the muscle(s) that does the opposite motion (the antagonist); so if I throw a punch w/my arm extensors firing, but at the same time I am activating arm flexors, I am basically driving with one foot on the gas and one on the break; now, the reason that the flexors could fire could be anything from poor postural organization, reliance on accessory muscles of respiration, fist held too tight: all these will create some sort of bias in the flexors that will create conflict in my goal of extending the arm; now, at the same time, you can look at other areas of the body: feet, knees, pelvis, and find that same sort of conflict going on (e.g. - simultaneous firing of psoas and glutes, which many people do); so this is why postural alignment in taiji is important, because if you are functioning inefficiently and using non-core muscles to do the work of core muscles, you will have conflict which will interfere with optimal movement;
the other part is that, as you feel the ground reaction force move through the connective tissue matrix, you fire the musculature so that it supports this movement, not opposes it - which is why when you get it "right", tossing someone feels effortless, because you are riding that wave of GRF that was the result of their initial input into you that went into your structure and "rebounded" back; the analogy would like pushing a ball rolling down hill - you are contributing to the roll, but it doesn't feel like you are

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Originally Posted by Bob Ashmore

It is muscular expansion that will create "sung", not muscular contraction.

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there is no such thing as muscular "expansion"; muscles shorten or lengthen, that's it; the "expansion" feeling is more a property of connective tissue, which is what you get when you "float" your structure on the GRF, which is what the whole "suspended by a string" bit is nudging you towards...

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Originally Posted by Bob Ashmore

This is much easier said than done.
That line fairly well defines Tai Chi Chuan from beginning to end...

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you have to look at the principles, which are what set you up for efficient postural organization in gravity; these principles are a culturally coded way of explaining things that other systems (Alexander Technique, e.g.) arrived at on their own, but articulate in a way more easily accessible to "westerners"; meaning that if one investigates deeply, one will arrive at the same "truth" as someone else did; in other words, there is nothing particularly unique to taiji in terms of how it's trying to get you to organize posture and movement; the difference is the way aspects of this are trained, but even that is found in other approaches; remember, "taiji" means Great Pivot (Supreme Ultimate is a bad translation) - the Pivot being the polar axis as determined by the Pole Star, which was very important in Taoist astronomy (derrrr...); but in the body, the spine becomes the pivot; so here is another example of Taoist macro / micro mirroring; meaning that the connection between the movement of the earth in space and the human being on earth is implied as intimately linked (for example, an older version of Cloud Hands is called Bear Walk; as in walking the Seven Stars of the Bear...); with the further intimation that if one moves as the planet moves, one will do so without conflict - that is the truth behind taiji: not contracting muscles is just impossible (I mean, it's natural to contract muscles, and Taoist practice is about being natural, right...);
another "verification of this is the taiji principle "yih nan ling san" - with the eyes lead the body; what is being described here is something called the occulo-gyro-cephalic reflex - meaning that if you look in a certain direction, the muscles of the body that would move you that way, "prime" to move, in anticipation of moving that way; this is a well described physiological reflex, and it involves muscle contraction / changes in muscle tone; and somehow, this was understood by whoever came up with that phrase; nothing about not contracting muscles, but rather a formula for how to predispose the muscular system to work in harmony, in a way that is efficient and without conflict;

I used to feel much the same way about muscular contraction: "you can't move without doing that" used to be a popular outburst of mine.
It wasn't until I discovered that the only battle involved in that long hashed out argument is one of semantics that I finally began to understand the concept.
Of course the muscles get longer and shorter, one gets longer, one gets shorter, that's how you move and it is "natural" and necessary.
What is important is how you do it.
If you use tense muscular contraction to move, you create rigidity in your body that can be very quickly used against you. Anyone with any amount of time in push hands will feel that tension and isolate it, cutting off your ability to elongate the opposite muscle. This is why during push hands unskilled opponents are so easily trapped. It is by using their own tension against them.
That is not to say that opposing muscle groups will not shorten, it is only saying that you do not shorten it by forcing it along with what I can only describe as "li", dumb strenght, muscular tension...
Whatever you want to call it.
Surely you aren't trying to suggest that tensing up is a good thing?
It's not shortening or lengthening the muscles that is innappropriate during TCC, it is how you do it.
Do not "contract" the muscle. That is how I was taught the semantics. Lengthen or expand the opposite muscle, let the one getting shorter do so loosely and without using strength.
When one side pushes, does the other have to pull? No. It just has to become loose and allow the opposite side to do it's thing. This allows a greater range of motion, try it and you will see.
You can say this as "lengthen" or "expand" or however you want to say it.

I used to use a lot of the same arguments you did in your posting. Now I have tried the idea of expansion and relaxation of opposing muscle groups I have found a greater sense of balance, my rooting is deeper and my opponents ability to pluck or push me out of my stance has decreased incredibly.
You might want to give the idea a try. What have you got to lose but a few hours of your time?
Be well

Bob

I started out studying briefly with William in NYC in 1968 and then went to Cheng Man-Ching's school on the Bowery for about a year before he went back to Taiwan. Did some things with other people, including T.T. Liang when he was in Boston and then a lot of students of students etc.

Finally, I started studying with Yu Cheng Hsiang in NYC in the late 1980s. In a nutshell, what I learned from Master Yu was that there is just way too much thinking going on with T'ai Chi Ch'uan, and that is perfectly exemplified in this thread. Can you imagine a similar kind of online discussion about the proper way to hold a baseball bat or a basketball or dance partner? What I learned -- IMHO -- is that this is an athletic activity, that what is required is careful imitation and lots of practice in order to arrive at a place where you can do the thing with concentration but no thinking. Or, as Master Yu puts it, a beginner must follow the form. Later, the form will follow you.

It is all this talk about how to make a fist that makes the world at large think that T'ai Chi Ch'uan people are into some kind of mystical thing that is unlike any other martial or athletic activity.

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Originally Posted by Mfinn

I started out studying briefly with William in NYC in 1968 and then went to Cheng Man-Ching's school on the Bowery for about a year before he went back to Taiwan. Did some things with other people, including T.T. Liang when he was in Boston and then a lot of students of students etc.

Finally, I started studying with Yu Cheng Hsiang in NYC in the late 1980s. In a nutshell, what I learned from Master Yu was that there is just way too much thinking going on with T'ai Chi Ch'uan, and that is perfectly exemplified in this thread. Can you imagine a similar kind of online discussion about the proper way to hold a baseball bat or a basketball or dance partner? What I learned -- IMHO -- is that this is an athletic activity, that what is required is careful imitation and lots of practice in order to arrive at a place where you can do the thing with concentration but no thinking. Or, as Master Yu puts it, a beginner must follow the form. Later, the form will follow you.

It is all this talk about how to make a fist that makes the world at large think that T'ai Chi Ch'uan people are into some kind of mystical thing that is unlike any other martial or athletic activity.

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Not sure what your problem is but I see no need to bring common sense and logic into a perfectly kung fuish conversation.
:D

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Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn

another "verification of this is the taiji principle "yih nan ling san" - with the eyes lead the body; what is being described here is something called the occulo-gyro-cephalic reflex - meaning that if you look in a certain direction, the muscles of the body that would move you that way, "prime" to move, in anticipation of moving that way; this is a well described physiological reflex, and it involves muscle contraction

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Yeah, one sees this on the highway all the time. Person in the inside lane sees oncoming overtaking traffic in his outside mirror and 'unconciously' pulls the wheel slightly in that direction...causing a slight drift of their vehicle till they correct. That's why smart Bikers always ride down the outside of the overtaking lane, otherwise you can get wiped off by the 'eyes leading the body' phenomenom.

taai gihk yahn.... Good Post.

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Originally Posted by Water Dragon

Fair enough. I can only speak to what I was taught. Here's one thing on the 'hollow' fist. I was taught to hold the fist like I had a cricket in my hand. You don't wanna crush it, and you don't wanna let it go. This is more hollow than a boxing fist, but still solid.

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Grasping the robins egg is used in other styles as well.

Read Tai Chi Software Application Update: William CC Chen Shares Crucial Points of Mental Focus to Improve Health and Unleash the Body's Energy by Robert Dreeben

...now I'm really happy for her. Wow.

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Who Is Tiffany Chen? 5 Things to Know About Robert De Niro’s Girlfriend Amid Baby News
By Meredith Nardino May 10, 2023


https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-conten...y=86&strip=all
Tiffany Chen and Robert De NiroBav Media/SplashNews.com; Rob Latour/Shutterstock

Mystery woman no more. Robert De Niro has kept his relationship with Tiffany Chen under wraps since the pair were first linked in 2021.

The twosome reportedly connected on the set of 2015’s The Intern. At the time, the Oscar winner was married to Grace Hightower, with whom he welcomed son Elliot and daughter Helen in 1998 and 2011, respectively.

De Niro and the socialite tied the knot in 1997, two years before he filed for divorce and sued Hightower for custody of their son. The pair later reconciled and renewed their vows in 2004, but they called it quits for good in 2018.

“Grace and I have two beautiful children together. We are entering a period of transition in our relationship, which is a difficult but constructive process,” the Meet the Parents actor noted in a statement to Us Weekly at the time.

Three years later, De Niro was photographed holding hands with Chen on a romantic European getaway. The duo were caught packing on the PDA while on a yacht with friends.

Over the years, the Taxi Driver star and the competitive martial artist have remained tight-lipped about their relationship. The pair were spotted meeting up with De Niro’s pals Billy Crystal and Harvey Keitel at Giorgio Baldi in Los Angeles in April 2023, one month before the Godfather Part II actor announced the arrival of his seventh child.

The New York native told ET Canada in May 2023 that he “just had” baby No. 7, but he did not immediately reveal the identity of the child’s mother. His About My Father costar Kim Cattrall hinted later that month that De Niro welcomed the newborn with Chen.

“God bless him. His significant other, Tiffany, is such a beautiful woman,” the Sex and the City alum gushed to Extra. “She came to the set once with her family and watched filming, and she was gorgeous and sweet. I’m happy for both of them.”

De Niro first became a father in 1976, welcoming son Raphael with his then-wife, Diahnne Abbott. He also adopted Abbott’s daughter from a previous relationship, Drena, before the couple’s 1988 split.

The Golden Globe winner went on to welcome twin sons Julian and Aaron via surrogate with model Toukie Smith, whom he dated from 1988 to 1996. While fans were shocked to hear De Niro’s family expanded even further in 2023 — at 79 years old — he assured Page Six the pregnancy was “planned.”

“How you could not plan that kind of thing?” he teased while promoting About My Father.

Sign up for Us Weekly's free, daily newsletter and never miss breaking news or exclusive stories about your favorite celebrities, TV shows and more!

Scroll down to learn more about Chen:

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1. What Does Tiffany Chen Do for a Living?
Chen is a martial arts professional and instructor who has earned numerous titles and awards from around the globe. She was inducted into Inside Kung-Fu magazine's Hall of Fame in February 2011 at the age of 26. As a child, Chen took up ballet, figure skating, swimming and gymnastics before following in her dad's martial arts footsteps.

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Credit: Francois Duhamel/Waverly/Warner Bros/Kobal/Shutterstock

2. How Did Tiffany Chen Meet Robert De Niro?
Chen's talents landed her a role in the 2015 movie The Intern where she taught tai chi to De Niro and costar Anne Hathaway. The film is reportedly how the couple were introduced, though they didn't begin their romance until years later.

https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-conten...y=86&strip=all
Credit: Matt Baron/BEI/Shutterstock

3. When Did Tiffany Chen Start Dating Robert De Niro?
The twosome were romantically linked in summer 2021 after they were spotted holding hands in the South of France. Pics obtained by the Daily Mail at the time showed the pair packing on the PDA on a luxury yacht. While they've been photographed together countless times since, neither De Niro nor Chen have publicly confirmed their relationship.

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Credit: JLDuenas/SplashNews.com

4. Who Are Tiffany Chen's Parents?
The world champion is the daughter of Yang Tai Chi Grandmaster William C. C. Chen, who runs his own martial arts academy.

"My plan has always been to learn how to be as great as my father," Tiffany noted during a 2011 interview. "My father is such an inspiration and has given back so much, working together with my mother [Priscilla] at our tai chi school and through his teaching around the world. He is an amazing mentor and role model."

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Credit: LONE WOLF/MEGA

5. Has Tiffany Chen Been Married Before?
Little is known about Tiffany's prior relationships and dating life. In a 2011 interview, she explained the importance of having "generous, beautiful people" in her circle. "Surrounding yourself with good people creates a symbiotic relationship that makes everyone's quality of life go up exponentially," she said.

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Robert De Niro, Tiffany Chen attend Tribeca Film Festival after welcoming baby Gia: See photos
Charles Trepany
USA TODAY

Robert De Niro stepped out with his girlfriend Tiffany Chen two months after the couple welcomed a child together.

The pair were photographed Wednesday holding hands on the red carpet at the Tribeca Film Festival in New York City as they attended a screening of "Kiss the Future." De Niro, 79, previously revealed he welcomed his seventh child in April with Chen.

De Niro's representative Stan Rosenfield confirmed the baby's birth to USA TODAY on May 9, but did not provide any details. On May 11, the "Godfather" star shared more details with "CBS Mornings" host Gayle King, who showed off the first photo of the baby girl, Gia Virginia.

"I said 'Could I please, please, please break the news about what kind of baby is it? What's the baby's name? How did this come about?' " King said on air, adding that the actor agreed to share more about the youngster.

https://www.usatoday.com/gcdn/presto...pjpg&auto=webp
Robert De Niro and his girlfriend Tiffany Chen arrive to the screening of "Kiss the Future" during the opening night of the Tribeca Film Festival at OKX Theater in New York City on June 7.

Gayle said that baby De Niro was born April 6 and weighed 8 pounds, 6 ounces.

De Niro is also dad to Drena, 51, and Raphael, 46, from his first marriage to Diahnne Abbott. He shares twins Julian and Aaron, 27, with Toukie Smith, whom he never married. And he shares Elliot, 25, and Helen Grace, 11, with Grace Hightower, whom he wed in 1997 and separated from in 2018. He is also a grandfather.

The actor first spilled the news about his new addition in an interview with ET Canada during a conversation about his film "About My Father", released May 26.

https://www.usatoday.com/gcdn/presto...pjpg&auto=webp
De Niro and Chen welcomed a baby together in April.

When reporter Brittnee Blair noted De Niro's six kids, he corrected her, saying, "Seven, actually."

"I just had a baby," he revealed.

He also spoke to Blair about fatherhood, saying he believes "in being loving with (his) kids,” but that sometimes, parents have “to be stern about stuff.”

“I mean, there’s no way around it with kids. I don’t like to have to lay down the law and stuff like that. But, (sometimes) you just have no choice,” he said. “And any parent, I think, would say the same thing. You always want to do the right thing by the children and give them the benefit of the doubt but sometimes you can’t.”

More:Robert De Niro welcomes seventh child at 79, shares name and first photo

Contributing: Morgan Hines

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Robert De Niro’s partner Tiffany Chen diagnosed with Bell’s palsy after giving birth

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Martial arts instructor Tiffany Chen shares that she was diagnosed with Bell’s palsy shortly after giving birth to her first child — and partner Robert De Niro’s seventh — in April. (Andy Kropa / Invision / Associated Press)
BY NARDINE SAADSTAFF WRITER
JULY 14, 2023 8:57 AM PT


Robert De Niro’s partner Tiffany Chen has revealed that she was diagnosed with Bell’s palsy after giving birth in April.

Chen opened up about the postpartum health complication in an interview with “CBS Mornings” host Gayle King, who revealed the tot’s name and first photo in May after getting the runaround from the Oscar-winning actor. On Friday, the newborn, Gia Virginia Chen De Niro, made her TV debut.

Chen said that despite a “really easy” pregnancy with De Niro’s seventh child, “everything was starting to just fall down on itself” after her C-section delivery. The martial arts instructor also described her face as “melting on itself.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7YbtVFr2Wg

Right after the delivery, she felt a sharp pain behind her ear and noticed that her face was “looking odder.” Doctors initially told her the symptoms were likely a result of fluid buildup after giving birth, but the symptoms worsened when she got home. Her tongue felt strange, “a little tingly, starting to get a little bit numb,” and in a week she was readmitted to the hospital.

“I lost all facial function the minute I got into the hospital. And the one thing that threw everybody off was that it was perfectly symmetrical how everything had fallen and how everything wasn’t working,” she said.

The athlete’s MRI showed that she had Bell’s palsy, a neurological disorder that causes severe muscle weakness or facial paralysis. The condition usually affects one side of the face. It can be temporary and tends to resolve itself or with some treatment, according to the Mayo Clinic.

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Chen said that “everything fell,” including her lower lip, making it hard for her to speak or make any facial expressions. And the palsy affected both sides of her face, which is rare.

“I got to a point where it was just hanging and I’d have to hold it up,” she said. “And to talk, I’d have to hold my chin and I’d have to manipulate my lower lip to make certain sounds. I couldn’t say ‘Bob.’”

While her symptoms have improved, some self-conscious issues have remained, including not being able to smile at Gia.

“I couldn’t give her kisses. That’s what made me self-conscious,” Chen said, later adding, “The thing I did worry about was, ‘What if it didn’t get better?’ Was my kid going to get made fun of for having the weird-looking mom? That’s the only time, like, vanity comes into play. It’s how it affects the child.”

Chen was frustrated by negative commentary that focused on her appearance after initial headlines about De Niro’s age at Gia’s birth subsided. (De Niro is 79 and has six other children.)

“I’m like, ‘Mind your own business a bit. And if you want to say something, don’t always attach what you think in your mind as the story. You don’t know us. You don’t know what happened in somebody’s life,’” Chen said. “People were saying all sorts of nasty things about, you know, my appearance and me being angry. And I’m just kind of like, ‘This is, like, the happiest time in my life.’”

The comments also encouraged Chen to share her story to be an ally to other women who are criticized in similar manners.

Chen, who met De Niro when she played his tai chi instructor in his 2015 comedy “The Intern,” said that he was sweet and supportive throughout the ordeal.

“[De Niro] tried to say that he didn’t see any difference, he didn’t see any change,” Chen laughed. “He was like ‘No. ... You look fine.’ He’s like, ‘Maybe you look a little stern.’ And I’m like ‘Really?’ My whole face has melted on itself. But he was very strong, very supportive.”

Chen’s revelation comes amid news that a woman who allegedly sold fentanyl-laced pills to De Niro’s 19-year-old grandson Leandro was arrested. Leandro died earlier this month, but no cause of death was given at the time.


Nardine Saad covers breaking entertainment news, trending culture topics, celebrities and their kin for the Los Angeles Times. She joined The Times in 2010 as a MetPro trainee and has reported from homicide scenes, flooded canyons, red carpet premieres and award shows.

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