I just found this site and it looks interesting. They are going to tour the U.S.
Does anyone here practice an Indian martial art ?
http://people.we.mediaone.net/radhac...ingevents.html
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I just found this site and it looks interesting. They are going to tour the U.S.
Does anyone here practice an Indian martial art ?
http://people.we.mediaone.net/radhac...ingevents.html
Had no idea this existed! Do you know where to get tour info?
de ja fu - The feeling that somewhere, somehow you've been kicked in the head like this before.
I think you'll have to e-mail them. Their address is at the bottom of their page.
They have a lot of info on Gatka, a Sikh Martial Art, at the Alliance Martial Art website.
I don't get mad.
I get stabby.
Kalaripayit was actually quite (very) rare until just a couple of years ago. Now there seems to be more and more information about it getting out.
Interesting to see where it goes from here.
cool
peace
Kung Lek
Martial Arts Links
their "grandmaster" in India is truly amazing :eek: I've seen a documentary on him and his martial art in India. scary stuff, when advanced, fighting with live, sharp weapons.
~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"
The training usually starts at the age of seven for both boys and girls. For most Kalari exponents, the training becomes a way of life. Besides the physical aspects, the Kalari training includes meditation and Ayurvedic oil massages. The massages are of prime importance in conditioning and making the body supple. This is done by the Gurukkal or the Master Trainer himself.
The training is imparted in four stages. First the Chuvadu or stance. This is followed by Vadivu or body postures which are eight in number: gaja (elephant), simha (lion), aswa (horse), varaha (pig), sarpa (serpent), marjjara (cat), kukkuda (rooster) and matsya (fish).
The trainee who masters the Chuvadu and Vadivu goes on to Meyppayattu (the use of the body in fighting) which aims at perfecting neuro-muscular coordination. Then begins the training with weapons. Commencing with cane weapons, the trainee graduates to using the Cheruvadi (small stick), Ottakkol (poles), Gada (mace) and Kadtaram (steel dagger), and then the most glamorous of combats - fighting with the sword and shield.
Another weapon is the Urumi, a long, springy, double edged, coiled sword which can even recoil and hurt the user if not wielded with skill. Fighting with spears is the last in the weapon training syllabus. The spears called Kuntham are long poles made of cane, bamboo or wood with a sharp double edged metal tip.
That summary comes from this site:
http://www.keralatourism.org/news/Prev15.html
Here is a site with some video clips and other info:
http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/tnd/kalari/kalari.html
[This message was edited by Syre on 10-27-01 at 05:48 AM.]
kung fu's origin... Me Like. :D
great pages
~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"
This is intersting,
I noticed they spend an unbelievable amount of time on body development PRIOR to ANY martial practice, especially stance work. This has ALWAYS been a philosiphy of mine. The other interesting thing is that they teach weapons FIRST and un armed second. This actually makes more sens from a traditional stand point as the ancient warrior was going to face weapons first, and fight empty hand ONLY if disarmed. Also, weapons build the body much faster than empty had because of added weight, so your looking at faster progression physically than doing it the other way around. Of course you modern boys would say just lift wieghts, and I agree you right about that, but weapn's training IS a progressive resistance exercise just like weight lifting is.
Personally, as soon as they get video's out, I'm buying them ALL!!! I really want to see "HOW" these guys train more so than "What" they train.
My guess, is this would be a great art to have as a foundation.
Comments anyone?
Royal Dragon
"Chi is Chinese for Spinach"
Check out the Royal Dragon Web site
http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com
Read the first link! They claim TaMo traveled to Shaolin to teach martial arts, instead of spreading Buddism (sp)!! :confused: :mad: :eek:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I'll be too busy lookin' good!"
{font=cartman}Sweeeeeeeeet!{/font}
_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama
http://amritha.freeyellow.com/
Since this is an ancient martial art, it must be a truly powerful style. Perhaps I should check into it. Looks interesting.
ahhh, Kalari payit.
World's oldest codified systematized martial art still in existance (don't get me started on the wall paintings found in abydos during the earely 90's). Still practiced in parts of western and northern India, Kalari Payit predates even the Shaolin Martial Arts by more than 1000 years.
The first time i ever heard of the art was was in a travelogue and there was mention of a school and a short chat with the headmaster of this school. Pretty cool stuff, pretty rare and definitely not a prominently practiced art. Still quite rare.
There was a time, not so long ago that one would never have heard of this ancient martial arts system. What wonders the internet brings with it's ability to communicate the far flung and obscure.
peace
Ancient and powerful, apparently.
yep and it's got dim mak too! :)
The headmaster stated in the interview I saw that a student would learn nerve pinches and the like after about 5 - 10 years depending on their ability to understand.
The style in practice resembled wushu. But he did do a nifty little "pinch" on the interviewers elbow to "demonstrate" at the request of the interviewer. Dropped the interviewer to their knees immediately. I thought to myself, "hey, now i think he's got something there" hahahaha.
peace
Wow, if Kalari is the Kung fu, what kung fu is to Karate, then I think we should really look into Kalari. I think kung fu has all this stuff too, but they play with live blades. I am very interested in this.
http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/tahtib.html
evidently there are lots of mid east MA's.
Don't get me started on MA history we'll be here all day.
I have studied Kalaripayit aka Vajarmushti and found it to be a very good system. I actually came across it in my pursuit of the KATAR (one of my favorite weapons) I knew of the weapon before the art then.
The "dim mak" is called marma adi. I have found two books on this. I have heard of an art the focuses soley on this called Marma shastra, i think. But haven't found much on it.
women are the mother of all martial arts.
why else would we fight?
I really like the technique shown at the top of the page; jumping high in the air with feet in front of you and holding a fist-mounted shield where it will protect your groin.
Graceful and effective!
On the other hand, the pictures of the guys with their feet planted securely look pretty good.
Of course there are lot's of martial arts throughout the east and the mediteranean basin.
I think it had to do with the fact that civilization has been existing there since civilizations existed.
Not to mention all the wars before the invention of firearms.
And the Romans invaded the entire known world, followed by every other group from tartars to moors to huns.
There were pockets where arts such as Shaolin Kung Fu, Kalaripayit and various others were developed to very high levels with sound principles. These pockets enjoyed a long unbroken development deep within the territories they came from and as well many techniques and apps within these style were developed from lessons in the field. with time further adaptation brings us to the state of the arts today.
They are all a worthwhile endeavour.
peace
I knew this art for a long time, I have a friend who has been studying indian MA for 8 years...he practices Varma Kalai and has done many studies on Kalari Payat.
It's true that it's a fascinating art...their calisthenics and flexibilty drills are impressive
My favourite Kalari Payat weapon is the Urumi, a sword with flexible and razor sharp blades that can bend like a whip...Urumis usually have three of the blades connected to a single handle, and you could easily decapitate someone with it...of course, it was the weapon of masters, since there were lots of occasions for self-maiming if your mastery wasn't near perfect :eek:
But Asia, I think Kalari Payat and Vajramushti are two different styles.
Vajramushti (also called Mallavidya) seems even more ancient than KP, it's a ancient combat technique that probably appeared in the religious context of the Brahman cast. It is an extremely violent pugilism often given during religious celebrations, with strikes aiming at the head and chest with often lethal consequences since the opponents were wielding a vajra (or kongo in japanese) in their hand ie some sort of metal rod with points at both ends or claw like protuberances.
That said, lots of its techniques passed down to Kalari Payat and some even say gong fu (some historians trace a link from Vajramushti to Shaolin).
Some bouts are still organized, although more sports and less dangerous, in the Gujarat.
http://www.channel1.com/pankration/history/
It's an interesting theory.
Yeah.As far as I know,it´s quite deadly,and requires lots of flexibility.
Yeah but was it made in Korea?:D
Anways I like to say that thereare other kung fu styles like tien shan pai that predate shaolin and other styles outside of China also.
Hiya Chaps,
Some would argue, and in fact there is some evidence to suggest that the Greek art of Pankration influenced the fighting arts of India, and therefore the arts of China and Japan. It has been recorded that at least some of the current Masters of some Japanese styles freely admit to this influence, Mas Oyama being one. I'm not saying that Pankration is better than the other arts it influenced but it seems to be true that it came first. In ancient times it was common practice to take Greek culture and fighting arts further afield, and this was true of Alexander the Great, who reached the borders of China before turning back to Greece. I wonder what would have happened if he did not turn back but ventured into the heartlands of China??
Cheers
Hercules.
Yea i agree. The Mother of all Martial Arts is wrasslin'. Us Westerners had it all along. :D
Yea i agree. The Mother of all Martial Arts is wrasslin'. Us Westerners had it all along. :D
Ozzies check it out! Indian Martial Arts.
started 8:30
Did anyone see it?
For a while now, many people have been hearing that martial arts had its roots in India. But where in India... what art would it have been? Some tried to link the grappling art of Vajramushti as Kung-Fu's predesessor even though it resembles Greek Pankration wrestling. Others with the Punjabi art of Gatka which is a sword fencing art. However, during the 1990s the Kerala art of Kalaripayattu has came out from the dark. Many people seeing this art with its martial arts type of kicks, punches, and weaponry have were convinced that this must be the art which Kung-Fu has originated from. There are a lot of web sites and articles stating that the art of Kalaripayattu was the martial arts introduced by an Indian prince turned monk by the name of Daruma Bodhidarma to China. As a matter of fact many have jumped to the conclusion that it was the mother all martial arts.
First of all, there is no connection whatsoever between Kalaripayattu and Kung-Fu. Kalaripayatttu was formed around the 13th century and Daruma Bodhidarma was alive around the 6th century who traveled to China. There is a 700 year gap between him and the formation of Kalaripayattu. Also, Daruma Bodhidarma was born in the ancient Pallava kingdom of Kanchipuram which is situated in the state of present day Tamil Nadu where Kalaripayattu is not a native art of the state. As a matter of fact Tamil Nadu itself has several martial arts which predate Kalaripayattu thousands of years and are even mentioned in the ancient Tamil literature such as the Silappadikaram during the Sangam Age of the 1st century A.D. Another piece of Tamil literature which mentions of these martial arts is called the Purunaruru (Four Hundreds songs on War and Wisdom) written around 500 B.C.E. The source on Kalaripayattu can be found in Phillip Zarilli's When the Body Becomes All Eyes: Paradigms, Discourses and Practices of Power in Kalarippayattu, a South Indian Martial Art .
Another thing I would like to point out is that India was not in existence before the arrival of the British around the 1600s. Before the British colonized the former numerous countries and kingdoms of the sub-continent and called it India, the present day southern states of Kerala, Tamil Nadu, and even parts of Sri Lanka were originally called Tamil Akkam. It was one Tamil (Dravidian) administration with three major dynasties being the Pandyan, Cholas, and the Cheras. The Pallavas were also part of Tamil Akkam at one time. However, their empire was divided by Tamil Nadu and Andra Pradesh. The land where the Cheras ruled later came to be known as Kerala where they formed their own language out of Tamil called Malayalam. The latest parts of the sub-continent to be brought into the Indian Union were the 5 French territories of Pondicherry in 1956. Before that, it was Assam, Manipur, and the other Eastern states which came under the British rule and became part of their India during the late 1800s which can be found at Thang Ta: Martial Art of Manipur.
As a Matter of fact, Tamil Akkam had such a powerful infantry, cavalry, and navy, that not even the Mauryan Empire of Asoka could over power it. This was probably due to the Tamils martial expertise as well. Much information can be found along with a map of the Mauryan Empire of Asoka in K.A. Nilakanta Sastri's Age of the Nandas and Mauryas. Another good book to read on this would be Asoka and the Decline of the Mauryas by Romlia Thapar.
The Martial Arts of Tamil Nadu and Northeastern Sri Lanka, are Kuttu Varisai (empty hand combat), Varma Kalai (pressure point attacks), and an array of weapons arts. Kuttu Varisai resembles a mix of both Karate and Kung Fu having its own animal forms too. As for Kalripayattu of 13th century, it resembles a lot like ninjitsu.
There are many weapons arts and each weapon is a mastery of its own. One of the most famous one is called Silambam which is similar to the Bo staff fighting in Japan. There are a total of 96 Katas for this art. Another weapon is the Erathai or the double stick similar to the Filipino Kali or Sinawali. There are two unique weapons which are not found outside of Southern India which is the Surul Pattai (steel blade whip) and the Madhu (deer horns). Other weapons arts of the Tamil country are the Val Vitchi (single sword) and the Eretthai Val (double short sword).
Between the 2nd to 12th century AD the Pallavas and the Cholas have done intensive sea trade with Southeast Asian kingdoms like that of Angkor (Cambodia), Sri Vijaya (Indonesia) and even as far as China. It is possible that the Pallavas may have had contact with Japan during their seafaring naval expeditions. A good source on that would be in the book titled Traditional Cultural Link between India and Japan (During the 8th and 9th centuries) written by Dr. Kalpakam Sankarnaryan and Dr. Motohiro Yoritomi. There is a possibility the inhabitants of the islands of Japan may have adopted certain forms of Kuttu Varisai and Silambam by the Pallavas. Silambam which might be precursors to Kendo, Ken-Jutso, and Karate.
Beween the 10th and12th centuries A.D., the Cholas conquered much of Southern India and Eastern parts going through Manipur, Assam, and Southern Burma. There empire stretched to as far south as Sri Lanka & Maldives, and to the East was Sumatra, Java, and Malaysia (Kadaram). Their martial arts must have been one of their exports along with various other arts like dance, architecture, and the Tamil version of the Ramayana. The Ramayana (or Ramayanan, Ramavataram) was re-written from Sanskrit to Tamil by the sage Kavicakravarti Kamban of the 9th century A.D. of the Chola kingdom of Tanjore, Tamil Nadu. There are certain moves which are in Muay Thai which are called the Hanuman or Lim Lom. Hanuman was a warrior in the Ramayana epic. Three sources on this can be found in Cholas by K.A. Nilakanta Sastri, Mystery of the Maldives by Thor Heyerdahl, and Muay Thai: The Most Distinguished Art of Fighting written by Panya Kraithat and Pitisuk Kraitus.
As for the Shaolin, it may be possible that Daruma Bodhidarma did go there and introduced Dhyan [Zen (in Japanese), Chan (in Chinese)]. The absence of fighting forms in China before Daruma Bodhidarma is absolutely false. If there was no fighting form in China, then how did there armies fight which most definitely predates the arrival of Daruma Bodhidarma? There were fighting forms in China. It was Daruma Bodhidarma who introduced his concept of breathing exercises, the arts of the vital points and the 18 Lohan which can be seen in Kuttu Varisai of present day Tamil Nadu. His introduction of these Dravidian combat forms and exercises was adopted by the Chinese which later evolved into Kung - Fu. However, Bodhidarma was also not the only Sage who went to China.
There was another Tamil sage who travelled to China well before him around the 5th century B.C. by the name of Boghar Siddha. He was accompanied by Lao Tse the founder of Taosim and who was the first Chinese to propound the theory of duality of matter -- the male Yang and female Yin -- which conforms to the Siddha concept of Shiva - Shakti or positive-negative forces. In Tamil, Yin and Yang translates to Idai Nadi (female, moon) and Pingelai Nadi (male, sun). The unification of the two becomes Lingam which is a symbol of Siva. The Sanskrit adaptation of the Yin and Yang is Shiv and Shakt (or Siva and Shakti). The Sanskrit translation of the unification of Shiv and Shakt is called Prana. Prana is "breath" and is understood as the vital, life-sustaining force of living beings and the vital energy in all natural processes of the universe.
In Southeast Asia the arts of Krabi Krabong in Thailand and Silat in Indonesia bear a lot of resemblances of the Dravidian warfare arts of Southern India. The animalistic styles and even forms of animism found in Silat are also found in Kuttu Varisai where invokes a specific animal spirit or energy into ones body. Many Chola and Pallava Naval and Merchant ships landing in parts of Southeast Asia have not only brought with them the Hindu and Buddhist religions, but the martial arts as well which fused with the indigenous fighting styles of Southeast Asia. Source Tamil Merchant Guild in Sumatra written by K.A. Nilakanta Sastri.
In the Bible in the book of Solomon and Esther it mentions about trade and contact with India. The term India was used in the King James Version which was translated from Hebrew and Greek during the 1600s and the rise of the British Empire. The King James came about after the British took control over many kingdoms and countries forming it into one British Administration and giving the name India. India is actually a Latin word for Indo or Indus in Greek which is Hindu in the Persian language of Farsi near Iran and Pakistan. In the Tamil texts it mentions about King Solomon’s trade and contact with the Chera, Pandya, and Chola kingdoms of Tamil Akkam. King Solomon was not the only one in contact with the Dravidian kingdoms but Rome, Greece, and Egypt. This information can be found in Foreign Notices of South India: from Megasthenes to Ma Huan written by K.A. Nilakanta Sastri. Other than spices, precious stones, silk, and exotic animals being exported to Rome, Greece and the Middle East, weapons and fighting styles were exported as well. The Romans and the Greeks who traveled to Tamil Akkam were known by the ancient Tamils as the Yavanas. Weapons like the trident amongst others were imported to Rome including certain fighting forms which were used in gladiatorial fights in Rome. More information can be found in Silambam fencing from India by Manuel J. Raj and The Commerce Between the Roman Empire and India by E.H. Warmington.
TO BE CONTINUED. . .
. . . CONTINUATION
There are even older fighting styles found on the African continent which may have found its way to the Indian sub-continent and from Australia. These are known as Dambe of Nigeria which one hand is bound for punching, and kicking and head butting are allowed. Similar arts to Dambe are Adi Thada of the Tamils, and Muay Thai of Thailand. The Ringa wrestling of Madagascar is similar to the Tamil wrestling called Malyutham. Amongst the many fighting styles and sports of Africa is the Savika bull fight which can also seen in the Tamil Nadu and parts of Northeastern Sri Lanka bull fights known as Jalli Kattu. Ancient Tamil texts mention of an ancient land mass connecting India with Australia and Madagascar. It also mentions names of cities and rivers which lie beneath the Indian Ocean today. The Indian sub-continent and Australia both lay on the same tectonic plate called the Indo-Australian plate. The tsunami of December 2004 also proved the Lemurian theory when it washed back a couple of miles exposing temples and artifacts in the Bay of Bengal near Mammalapuram, Tamil Nadu. That was the fourth tsunami recorded in the history of South Asia. The third was during the early 1900s. In the Tamil Silappadikaram it also mentions of a great flood or tsunami which wiped out an ancient Pandyan city. An interesting book which goes into detail is called The Lost Land of Lemuria: Fabulous Geographies by Sumathi Ramaswamy. The resemblances between Tamils, Malayalees, Australian aborigines and East African are very close. There is an ancient weapon that was used in Tamil Akkam called the Valari which resembles the Boomerang of Australia. The Velari was shaped like the boomerang, but was tipped with a metal blade. Here is an article written by Dr. S. Jayabarathi Jaybee on the Valari Weapon.
In conclusion, martial arts of India today were actually the martial art of Tamil Akkam thousands of years back and not ancient India. India or the Indian Union did not come into play until after the arrival of the British around the 1600s. To be more exact these arts are considered Tamil Martial Arts or Dravidian Martial arts respectfully. Dravidian is a family of ethnicities in Southern India and Sri Lanka such as the Malayalees of Kerala, Tamils of Tamil Nadu & Sri Lanka, Telugus and Tulus of Andra Pradesh and so forth. However, thousands of years back, the term Dravidian was a Greek word for Tamilians or Tamils which was also adopted in the Sanskrit language. Kalari Payat is a very dynamic martial art with an array of weaponry including pressure point attacks and massage. However, it does not go any further back than the 13th century as quoted from Phillip Zarilli's When the Body Becomes All Eyes: Paradigms, Discourses and Practices of Power in Kalarippayattu, a South Indian Martial Art . Daruma Bodhidarma was also well alive almost 700 hundred years before the formation of Kalaripayattu. There were many other sages and monks who have travelled from present day Southern India to China well before Daruma Bodhidarma.
Here are some additional links:
Lost City Found off Indian Coast (BBC):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1923794.stm
Tsunami Throws up India Relics (BBC):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4257181.stm
Varma Kalai martial art of Tamil Nadu:
http://perso.orange.fr/varmakalai/
Silambam (staff fighting) of Tamil Nadu:
http://silambam.com/
Kalairpayattu martial art of Kerala:
http://www.kalarippayat.com
Gatka Sikh (sword fencing) of Punjab:
http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/styles/gatka.htm
Vajra Mushti (wrestling) of Gujurat:
http://www.bjj.com.au/john_article_web_7.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...22&btnG=SearchQuote:
Originally Posted by Jingo
Interesting, but a quick search of this sage's name as you have spelled it yield no results.
so, what are the documentations supporting your arguments?
Hope to see these indian MA appear in UFC in the future.
*cough* shuai jiao
My documentations supporting my arguments are in the article itself names of books and authors. Also, here is an interesting link on Bogar Siddhar.Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingMonk
Life of Bogar Siddhar: http://murugan.org/bhaktas/bhogar-life.htm
You have some documentations in regard to some of the other claim. How rigorous they are, I don't know because I am not too interest in them, nor care to look into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jingo
My main interest is in the claim regarding Lao Zi and Bogar Siddhar. Which your article really provide no documentation. Your article states it as a matter of fact without providing any documentation. The only justification was the comparsion between the similarity of Lao Zi's yin-yang duality doctrine and that of Shiva - Shakti.
Quote:
founder of Taosim and who was the first Chinese to propound the theory of duality of matter -- the male Yang and female Yin -- which conforms to the Siddha concept of Shiva - Shakti or positive-negative forces. In Tamil, Yin and Yang translates to Idai Nadi (female, moon) and Pingelai Nadi (male, sun). The unification of the two becomes Lingam which is a symbol of Siva. The Sanskrit adaptation of the Yin and Yang is Shiv and Shakt (or Siva and Shakti).
Quote:
Also, here is an interesting link on Bogar Siddhar.
Life of Bogar Siddhar: http://murugan.org/bhaktas/bhogar-life.htm
need "aircraft" to fly, and actually "construct" an aircraft?Quote:
from: http://murugan.org/bhaktas/bhogar-life.htm
It is said that as per the last wishes of his guru, Bhogar proceeded to China to spread the knowledge of siddha sciences and strangely enough his journey is said to have been made with the aid of an aircraft; he demonstrated to the Chinese the details of the construction of the aircraft and later built for them a sea-going craft using a steam engine. The details of these and other experi- ments demonstrated by Bhogar in China are clearly documented in the Saptakanda.
Only if Guru Milarepa knew all he had to do was "construct" a flying vehicle.
I would have used Liezi, which would be a better example, since he was a daoist master who came after Lao Zi. Separated by probably a couple hundred of years. He could fly too. Too bad, his writing doesn't speak of aircraft.
Bhogar Siddhar might still be a real siddha, but this kind of article is really imposing modern world view bias onto "legendary" account which result in gibberish.
Beer, dude. I would fight yo @ss over the last cold one!Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
This thread is ancient and powerful.
First of all, after posting the above web address I noticed that it was not up and running and it is still not up and running...Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingMonk