How many of you are vegetarian's? And if you are, did you switch your diet to that because of martial arts?
Kathy
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How many of you are vegetarian's? And if you are, did you switch your diet to that because of martial arts?
Kathy
Being a vegetarian is good for monks or spiritual minded people who aren't interested in mudane things. I am not kind of spiritualist nor believe it's moral wrong to eat meat like a tiger doesn't question his feeding habits.
We human beings have teeth designed by nature or god to eat meats and vegs. I eat both with much great pleasure and thank god or nature for those simple things.
Mr Bao, I take issue with you logic! What we were given primariily by God was adaptability. Adaptability in having a learning and discerning mind and adaptability in having a non-specific physiology.
There is NOTHING in our makeup which makes it clear that we should eat meat - only that we can. Meat-processing teeth and enzymes are just tools for us to use when we need them.
BateMotel, I turned vegan partly as a result of training ie it came about partly because of the way training makes me think about myself and the world at large. Later I found that the UK's senior instructor in my style had been vegan for many years which, obviously, I found reassuring.
What brought the question up?
-David
I moved from vegetarianism to meat eating when I found that it elavated my level of health through blood deficiency, and I have never felt better. If the abstaining from meat is for religious or spiritual purposes thaen so be it, but even from a Chinese Medicine point of view, for one's health it reallycan be a good idea to include some kind of meat in your diet especially as a martial artist.
This is my own view and opinion, and also that of TCM so please feel free to ignore it if it doesn't apply to you.
David:
Greetings. I hope you didn't get me wrong. I am not telling people what I think God meant for humanity to eat? Because I don't know god personally and never met the old man. My point was that we have teeth which can process both meats and vegs. I personally eat both meats and vegs.
But you say: "There is NOTHING in our makeup which makes it clear that we should eat meat - only that we can. Meat-processing teeth and enzymes are just tools for us to use when we need them."
Can we argue the same for vegs. too accordingly? What does our make ups tell us then? If you want to purly eat Vegs only, that is your own choice.
I would say go with what your Body demands.
Some people will need certain foods more than others.
I also think that your lifestyle will have an influence on your diet.
A person that is day-in & day-out physically more active than your average Desk pusher will need a different diet.
Personally, I think we have both so that we can survive hard times.
During the ice-age Fruits and Vegetables were at a minimum and humans needed to rely more on meat for sustance.
Cut either out completely and you might deprive your Body of nutrients it might need to reach optimum health.
Just my thoughts naturally.
my 2 cents:
I think human beings can and are made to consume meat. On the other hand, I also think that human beings are consuming too much more than their fair share of meat. I am not 100% sure of this, but I think in the old days, when people hunted and came home, they would share the catch between family. However, most of their food consisted mainly of grains, vegetables and fruits.
Today, we are consuming too much meat. More so that we ever. Our omnivorous colon is not as "straight" as those of a carnivore and will require much more fibre to help flow.
From the perspective of spirituality, again humans are eating too much meat. Taking into perspective, if humans killed their own catch by hand and slaughtered it for food, I think many would become vegetarian and those that wont, will reduce the consumption of meat. There will be a few of course, who will find slaughtering does not hurt them, hence will have more meat.
I think eating meat can be a spiritual act, but one that requires a great deal of samadhi (single pointed concentration). As taking of meat, one bears also some of the karmic debts of the deceased, and carries it with him/her. Especially the ones that did the slaughtering. However, if one is a good person, and kills only to provide as food, and not prone to overeating of meat (or any food for the matter) this could also be considered neutral.
Since the level of samadhi is extremely high for those dedicated onthe spiritual path, it might be worthy of abstaining from eating of meat, in fact, the Lankavatrata sutta was added with this as a precept (if I remember correctly). THe historical Buddha DID say that we should respect and follow the precepts layed out by his disciples as precepts to be followed. Hence those who follow the lankavatara sutta, those of the Hinayana and Mahayana paths, should abstain from eating meat as the rules layed out.
For the layperson, who hasnt got much regard for meditative spirituality, it might be worth just eating "enough" and not worry about it too much. I think that would be better for the benefit for all beings.
Of course these are my opinions and it is based strongly on Buddhism, and are only my 2 cents worth. But this be a can of worms so I leave it at that
:eek:
I'm kind of a vegetarian...not really by choice. I'm a poor-ass grad student and can't afford meat. :p
Seriously though, I eat meat. I don't often red meat often (a burger once in a long while, or venison whenever I can get my hands on some), I get plenty of iron elsewhere (and I think that's pretty much the only boon of specifically red meat, right?), but I eat a decent amount of white meat and fish.
The whole "our jaw was designed for this or that" is kinda iffy. It's really personal choice/belief on that one. As for the colon/intestine/appendix deal, I agree only as it applies to red meat, but not so much with lean meats like chicken or fish. It takes quite a while to push all the waste from red meats through. Not to say you shouldn't eat red meat (I'll never stop), but a small amount now and again isn't such a bad thing.
However, the most compelling debate is the taste of venison or burgers from Shady Glen (greatest burger joint under the sun). 'Nuff said. :D
Man, I'm getting hungry...
There's speculation that meat consumption is what was responsible for the change in the size of our brains.
well i m vegetarion due to 2 reason.
culture
habbitat...
in India mostly ppl r vegs because of these two reasons...
Meat in our terms r considered Hot food item which is not good for Warm places like india they normally gel with our climate
the consumption of Meat is more in Winter time due to very same reason, but those ppl who eat doesn't care much(much like my aunt's family they eat it daily)
kathy i m just intrested what brought this question??
-TkdWarrior-
Well Kathy, I tried vegatarianism in the past, for a couple of months. It didn't work for me at all, I was tired, weak, lost muscle, lacked energy, and couldn't lose fat. However, I know a few people who are healthy and happy on a veg diet. So I beleive it is a matter of individual metabolism.
If you are interested, you should read "Eat Right for your Type" by Dr. Peter D'Adamo. It explains how different bloodtypes are differant body chemistries and need different diets. IMO, he makes a lot of sense.
Mr Bao, good come-back! I answered you incompletely. There is medical evidence that eating meat as a staple is terminal. Most cancers only happen to meat-eaters.
Sevenstar, you're probably right: vegetarian neanderthals probably did have larger brains than us omnivorous cro-magnon 'fighting monkeys' ;)
Cheesedog, I had exactly the same experience as you when I first tried vegetarianism (not veganism). After 2 months I was so depressed and weak that I gave up and perked up. Because now I'm fine as a vegan, I think the metabolism is irrelevant - the problem I had was that I didn't then know how to be vegetarian. The only eating ideas I had were what I couldn't eat. Now, it's different. I know how to shop, cook and eat vegan and I know what I need and everything's cool.
I heard the blood-types diet has been discredited. I looked into it and then left it alone for that reason.
As various people have mentioned, in our natural state dietary selection is dependant on environmental conditions. That does not signify that eating in accordance with our environment is healthy it's just expedient, a manifestation of our adaptability. There are health/availability circumstances under which I would eat meat rather than be sick.
I've said it before, veganism is the Diet of the Future. Our level of understanding of nutrition and dietary health has more or less proven that veganism is the only way to go. Every other option has health drawbacks.
Just going vegetarian is one big step for man and one small step for mankind.
Where's BatesMotel?
-David
what health drawbacks would there be for eating as a vegan but also having chicken a few times a week?
ok anyone having problems with eating ideas in vegeteriansQuote:
The only eating ideas I had were what I couldn't eat. Now, it's different. I know how to shop, cook and eat vegan and I know what I need and everything's cool.
then i should say "Look for Indian food"
need ideas? just give me a Ring
well hav a go once a while but eating few times would be almost being like Non Veggies :)Quote:
what health drawbacks would there be for eating as a vegan but also having chicken a few times a week?
i eat Non Veg just for change of taste.
-TkdWarrior-
I ocassionally used to eat at a purely vegetarian restaurant.
They even served steaks and Burgers that tastes like the real thing.
Yummy.
I can tell you for a fact, this isn't true. The only cancer this applies to is colon or intenstinal cancer (mainly to red meat eaters who don't get enough fiber). And that's only because the waste hangs out there so long it can possiblly turn cancerous.Quote:
Most cancers only happen to meat-eaters.
However, people who eat meat can have a host of other problems though. There are possible heart problems for red meat eaters. For all you people who like chicken, science still isn't sure of the long term effects of the hormones the chickens get pumped with. Open water fish are subject to pollution. Farmed fish are subject to whatever chemicals are put into their food. All in all though, fish are probably the lesser of the "evils". Then again, some of the alternatives aren't that healthy either. Many types of vegetarian diets include the use of beans as a source of protein. Unless you want spend an hour or so soaking dry beans prior to cooking, most people would buy canned beans (I'm loyal to Goya myself :) ). In that case, you have to worry about whatever preservatives are used to maintain color and consistency. I'd have to check this, but for all I know, dry beans have preservatives too...
This is a little over the top. :rolleyes:Quote:
I've said it before, veganism is the Diet of the Future.
David,
There is pros and cons in all one side diets. I would say that it is true that there is equally amount of medical and scientific evidence the cons of eatting a meat based diet and a mainly veg diet. Yes, even eatting vegs alone has its medical problems, David. But I am not telling you how to eat or to change your ways. I personally believe in freedom and choices and all I asked is people be responsible for the way they live.
There are benefits in eatting meats and vegs which can't be deny. Soley meat eaters cant really deny the benefits of fruits and veg and veggie lovers cant deny the benefits of meats. If your reasons are based on faith and the spirit, then you can't force your faith on others. If your reason is based on money, then you should consider your morals? Something has to die for me to live whether it be plant life or animal life. How much faith you place on the value of life on plants and animal is rather subjective. As long we dont abuse them or posion them, I eat them. I eat both meats and vegs and fruits. I am on the "warrior diet" and I am a responsible health conscious person because I only eat organic products and do my best to eat a healthy balance of fruits, vegs, and meats. That is all I have say about that.
Last note, no one food source is ever a good idea for a diet be it meat or veg or fruits in my opinion. Your vision of the future for a purely veg diet is over the top. It is a facist or nazi vision against us who eat mainly or some meats in our diets. I hope never to live in those times, because I might be like chicken, fish, or pig boot legger or dealer. Yes, I am some dark alley somewhere in new york city selling meat products on the down low; maybe I am in Harlem, or the Lower East Side. I hear sirens and I drop a couple of pork chops because the vegan FiveOs are here and so I run and run until I get hit with a banana boomarang on my head and neck by a five o vegan pig. I get bagged for selling illegal organic meat products and the judge sentenced me to prison for 5 to 10 for having 50 lbs of meat products. But I may get parole within 2 years with good behavior and eatting only vegs. In the future prisions, all prisoners are farmers. LoL My vision of the future if David's vision became true.
Best Cheers.
If Vegansim is the diet for the future than I adhere to the Tao and remain in the present. I think Vegan diets are not suited to a lot of modern lifestyles and that a blanket conscription to a vegan diet would bring about a whole plethora of ailments and complaints. For those who have sedentary or contemplative lives with strong spiritual influences I know that this kind of diet is preferable and also required. But I know for a fact that my life would have to undergoe some serious sacrafices to instill a vegan diet, and to be honest I have great health reservations to this kind of diet anyway. Coming from a TCM poit of view I would stick to my Chang-Ming diet as opposed to a vegan.
Pages to read there! No time just now except for this.
Star Boy mentioned my incorrectitude about meat/cancer. I will restate it: 12 of the 16 top killer cancers only occur in meat/dairy consumers. I'll go get references later.
-David
FYI : dry beans - cook them in a pressure cooker. Some people put a silver fork in there as a "boiling stick" makes it go faster.
I absolutely love beans, when they are prepared correctly. For the record, I am an omnivore.
Oh, P.S. I have killed a rooster by breaking its neck, unfortunately my technique was bad - you have to pull apart as well as twist - so the poor bird suffered longer then it should have. But for me, it was a very good experience and I totally agree that you should be willing to kill, as well as gut or watch someone gut any animal that you are willing to eat.
I would be willing to kill an animal so I can eat it, but i am no expert and probably do more harm than good. That is why i go to the Supermarket and get my food. I am city boy, i am not farmer nor a butcher or hunter. We city folks do what we can... Personally, I have watched an animal being killed by expert and it did not disturbed me. I have also observed a dead body being examined as I ate my roast beef sandwich with no problem as well in college.
What got me sick. What is most disturbing to me is watching how wealthy people buy things for their cute little million dollars blue blooded over priced pets that could have paid my way to college or save human lives. That is f%$#ing disturbing to me. There are people who have ton of money to waste on petty things but the sad fact is there are less fortunate people out there like some sincere ghetto youth intellect who is unable to get a proper higher education or the old senior who cant get proper medical treatment. I do not hate the rich, but this shows where our values are at this present moment.
My 3 Cents.
I'm very wary of this study. There are a lot of meat/dairy consumers out there. There are also a lot of other causes of the cancer, and tying it to this huge population (which consists of most of America) seems like a reach. Many meat consumers also eat at McDonald's (though not me personally), don't exercise regularly, and have a generally unhealthy diet (too many twinkies and such). People who are vegan/vegetarian tend to be more health conscious in general and would therefore have less of a cancer risk. But this isn't to say that someone who is vegan is necessarily healthier than someone who eats meat.Quote:
Star Boy mentioned my incorrectitude about meat/cancer. I will restate it: 12 of the 16 top killer cancers only occur in meat/dairy consumers. I'll go get references later.
I don't have a pressure cooker. I have a rice cooker, I don't suppose that would work?Quote:
FYI : dry beans - cook them in a pressure cooker. Some people put a silver fork in there as a "boiling stick" makes it go faster.
I don't know about a rice cooker. A crock-pot will work, but it takes longer. You can also do the soak-overnight thing.
I have heard that certain cancers are almost unknown in vegetarian countries like India, although I do think we should be mindful of the fact that alot of the population doesn't even make it to an age where some of these cancers will afflict them.
US is the cancer capital of the world, from what I understand. Maybe it's all the industry and power lines, coupled with relatively long life spans??
Oh and burnt red meat is said to be carcinogenic.
Eat more fish, folks. But watch out for mecury and other pollutants.
I might try the soak overnight. As much as I love Goya in a can, I can't help but wonder if my sodium intake is a little much.Quote:
I don't know about a rice cooker. A crock-pot will work, but it takes longer. You can also do the soak-overnight thing.
That is true. If Americans really knew all of the carcinogens that they are exposed to every day, they would deport. Believe it or not, almost all soaps, shampoos, and toothpastes have carcinogens in it (SLS). Also, plastic wrap releases carcinogens into your food if you microwave it (I only nuke ceramics). If you live anywhere near a factory, I'd be really careful about your drinking water. I always use a Brita filter, but that might not be enough.Quote:
US is the cancer capital of the world, from what I understand.
And that's just the start of a very long list.
No kidding there. The worst part about fish is that a lot of times you can't tell if it's safe until too late.Quote:
Eat more fish, folks. But watch out for mecury and other pollutants.
It's hard to see how the US has the fattest people in the world when you really can't eat most of the food here. ;)
I personally like the aggressive energy. **** it, that is what makes us new yorkers tough! LoL. I think you are right, the Buddhists believe eating veg will make you natural less violents, but I am guessing if you chemical imbalance, no matter diet, you are bound to be a natural born killer.
From my observation, most veg lovers have soft looking bodies. This isn't bad, but not for me. I mostly see this in buddhist monks who have soft bodies. What do they care how they look, like they will get some tails anyways.
David, I researched vegatarianism before I tried it and gave it an honest try. It just didn't suit me; to many carbs and not enough protein. As far as the blood-type diet being discredited I doubt it, I believe it makes a lot of sense. But remember that most doctors and the AMA don't want us doing anything that doesn't involve expensive drugs. As Dave Barry said, "Most doctors tell us that vitamen supplements are a waste of money because they can't charge us for them. If the only way we could take vitamins was to have a $100,000 trap door installed in our heads doctors would say everyone needed them!"
I can't emphasize how true this is. I work in the pharmaceutical industry and the greed is just blatant. At the retail pharmacy where I work, we have this rack of "pharmacist recommended" products. One of the things on the rack is a diet pill. I have never seen an honest pharmacist recommend a diet pill to anyone. In fact, most pharamacists recommend against it. There was also one of those creams that guys can use so they last longer with the ladies (or other guys, depending on which way you go :D ). But a pharmacist would never really recommend something like that either. Everything else on the rack was a gimick too. We're healthcare professionals and the company actually thinks we're going to let people buy this garbage? Anytime someone tries to buy, or even look at that rack, I tell them that nothing there is really pharmacist recommended, and some of the products could do permanent damage. I think that some pharmacist for the company was offered a hefty bonus if they could compile this list of "recommended" products. Oi...Quote:
But remember that most doctors and the AMA don't want us doing anything that doesn't involve expensive drugs
I don't think the reasoning for Buddhists to not eat is for the fact that it will break one of their promises of refuge in harming or having a hand in the suffering of other creatures. So it's a spiritual reason NOT a dietary reason.
The budhha ate bad pork and was food poisoned before he died. You are right that they do not kill, but eating plant life is killing as well in my book. Something has to die inorder for us to live. I say before the value of animals and plant life is rather subjective. If you feel so much compassion for the animals and not plants, then why don't you feel compassion for plant life because it can't speak and communicate its pain and misery? Where is the moral holiday there? This is rather a moral judgement which I do care to think about nor do I care about. It just as fine for me that I know my own moral and intellectual reasonings why I eat what I eat. Lastly, one of their moral reasonings from what I learned at Chan temple is based on their observation that animals who eat plant life are less violent then animals who eat meat. I am telling you this wrong or right just communicating what I learned.
If you eat nothing but fruit and grain, you may be missing some protein from your diet. Protein is very good for building muscle. I've also noticed that people that don't eat some kind of meat seem to be more sickly and weak(no offense to any vegetarians). You need fiber in your diet to help keep things moving. Fruits and veggies give you many essential nutrients. I wouldn't reccomend cutting out meat entirely, but you shouldn't eat too much meat. Unless you do it for religious reasons.
Mr Bao,
Very true indeed. Although in the teachings, Lama has never said anything about plant life feeling pain and suffering, when asked, he simply explains that they are not considered sentient beings. It is however explained, a holy man in the past, who have vegetarian all his life, knew he could only be killed by eating grass, such is his karma. That story aside...
Even vegetarians share their fair share of killing, from the clearing of land, to the use of insecticide, worms, roaches, grasshoppers, ants, rats, rabbits, etc... are all affected by this.... without going too far into this....
1. The holding of the 5 precepts, one which is "not to kill" is difficult/impossible to achieve in samsara, but one needs to uphold this as much as possible, and with this, the path to escape samsara is realised
2. Dont over-eat, just eat enough to make you healthy and strong. Yes it is a spiritual thing
About weedy weak vegetarians, I have a story to share. I was in Thailand 4 years ago now, and went to this place called Tiger Cave. There is this high mountain and a steep stairway up, about 10 times the length of "Batu Caves" and each step is about 3 times higher. When we got up there, we could not walk down properly, our legs were all shivering. After a short stroll, a monk walks up, without so much as a puff. He is smilling and went about his own business. Being a Hinayana monk, he of course, is mostly if not entirely vegetarian.
Some food for thought :)
I think Reel Big Fish said it best:
she's not eatin' bacon, not
eatin' sausage,
and she won't eat eggs,
not eatin' chicken
not eatin' turkey, she
won't have a steak,
but i just can't help feelin'
sorry
for this poor little lettuce head
you know, i can't stop cryin' cause i
know this broccoli's dead
vegetarian? i'm not a vegetarian,
vegetarian...she's a
poor little cow, little sheep,
little fish
how can I sleep? when carrots
are bleedin'
plants are screamin' and tomatoes cry,
you say "it's not so bad, they're only
vegetables", that's what you said
maybe i'm a murderer, but i'm hungry
and they're better off dead.
save a plant, eat a cow,
i want beef, i want it now!
i'm gonna eat it cause it's red!
i'm gonna eat it cause it's dead!
maybe i should eat it raw let the
blood run down my jaw
i'd eat people if it was legal,
i'd eat people if it was legal!
:D :D
Anybody remember the lyrics to
Mary Mo - she's a vegetarian
da da da
she don't eat meat but she sure like the bone
da da da
:D
Sorry if you find this offensive, it was a popular radio song a few years back.
so wrong dude so wrong...Quote:
If you eat nothing but fruit and grain, you may be missing some protein from your diet. Protein is very good for building muscle. I've also noticed that people that don't eat some kind of meat seem to be more sickly and weak(no offense to any vegetarians).
u just need soyabean(as Cereal) to come up with protein
meat/chicken gives u about 23% but soyabean gives around 41%
(they r rounded figures from my doc watever i come to know that it gives more than meat or chicken)
if u notice the ppl r sickly n weak then plz come down to india n see those Pure Veggetarians Indian wrestlers who don't eat Meat due to religious reasons(because they worship lord hanuman n thus abstain from smoke/liquor/gamble/non veg/ sex till they get 25 yr old).
hell millions of ppl here don't eat meat for same reason, dunno how sick they r? cuz they arn't...
i m almost veggeterain(chicken once in about 4-5 months) n from last 7-8 yrs i never even had a flu, i m not sick, i m not weak...
i used to do bench press with 70-75 kgs(that time i used to weight around 82) now i weigh around 89 kgs
anyways as u said u noticed this, then it CAN happen in West because eating habbits r not same as East(indians). so i can belive that part but u shouldn't be generlizing(sp)
-TkdWarrior-
I have been vegetarian ever since I have been a Buddhist.
Not all buddhists are vegetarian, but I think it is fine and have had no problems with it.
I have increased my lean weight and am now 10kilos heavier and not fatter. My bodyfat is stable at around 12% and I train for about 5 hours a day in total.
Some interesting points here for both sides of the argument. Again TCM and Taoism Chang Ming diets certainly do include meat due to blood deficiencies. Of course from a spiritual perspective animals are seen as sentient beings, and therefore no suffering should be imposed on them. Just an interesting note on how His Holiness the Dalai Lama decided to eat meat for a period, admittedly due to dietary problems which gave him blood deficiecny problems but a comforting thought to the struggle of us lower realm mortals too.
Earlier in this thread (like on page one) I saw that there was a bit of a debate about "what God wanted us to eat". Had me thinking a bit, and reading, and I noticed that there are many biblical references about vegetarianism / meat eaters .
In the book of Genesis, I recall that God did not respect Cain's offering of "fruit of the ground", and preferred Abel's offering of an animal sacrifice. Also, after Cain slew Abel, when God punished Kane He said, "When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength:"
Genesis chapter 4
Now, given that a lot of you are of different religions, so this may not apply to you anyways, I simply wanted to share my interperetation of the religious side of the debate. There are very likely contradictions to this in the bible, as biblical contradictions are common due to the fact that meaning often varies greatly depending on one's own interperetation of the passages. If any of you know any biblical references suggesting we should be vegetarian/ vegan, please cite them. (i'm not being sarcastic there)
C'mon...God was not wanting a sacrifice to EAT. He wanted the hearts of his followers. Real sacrifice. He wanted Cain's best effort, not his second best. His punishment in addition to banishment, was that the ground would not bear it's strength to Cain.
Our society is so...I dunno, American? I am American and proud of it, but I am always amazed that considering becoming a vegetarian or vegan is akin in our society to changing religions.
I have noticed that it is the vegans among the ranks of the PETA faction that seem to fuel this backlash in most of America. They are so confrontational and angry at us non-vegans, that they make everybody so defensive.
My boss at work is a vegetarian. When I asked him about it, he delcared very quickly, "Oh, I'm not a vegan!" Actually he is. But he is scared to even admit it due to all the militant wacko's of which he is not affiliated.
Somebody mentioned that red meat only provided iron? It also provides protien, and most important it provides branch chain amino acids BCAA's, which are an awesome way to build and repair muscle tissue. They reduce the protein breakdown within your muscles; and they increase testosterone and growth hormone, your bodies most important fat-fighting and muscle-building hormones. It only takes 10g of of BCAA's to have a positive effect on our bodies. Just FYI...
The Vegan diet is not the diet of the future. Adkins is not the diet of the future. I think a balanced diet between the two is closer to the future. Besides, and I have to be honest here, just listining to an aggressive vegan, makes me want to chase down an animal and eat it. I mean, backlash is a real factor. And unless the vegans get rid of these wacko's their diet will never make it to the forefront in America.