Wing Chun and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu

Hello all! In my efforts to improve as a student of Wing Chun, I've been training with a variety of people both within WC and other martial arts. I've had the opportunity to workshop with people outside of WC in order to see some other perspectives on fighting and training.

I recently encountered several practitioners of both Wing Chun and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu who are of the opinion that Wing Chun's usefulness ends at clinching range and is basically non-existent in ground fighting.

As long as I have practiced Wing Chun, I have understood it to be a 'complete martial art', meaning that its effectiveness is limited only by the creativity and application of the practitioner. Therefore, Wing Chun should have an answer to the "problem" of ground fighting and grappling.

I'm curious what you think. Within the confines of a traditional Chinese system, what training methods and strategies do you use to deal with grappling/ ground fighting?

I train in BJJ and WC so I can say they both deal with touch and pressure there are similarities in principles but it's like comparing apples to oranges......

When it comes to ground work ( fighting ON the ground), very few ( if any systems) can compare to BJJ.
WC does NOT compare to BJJ in terms of ground fighting NOR SHOULD it.
That WC CAN address the issue depends on HOW it is trained and VS WHAT it is trained ( hint: WC VS WC will NOT prepare you for ground fighting).
And NO, WC as it is does NOT have an answer for the ground fighting that a BJJ fighter brings to the table, if you ( or anyone) doubts that, they can test that view very easily.
The WC fighters best option is to keep the fighting standing as long as possible.

I'd say WC "can" be used on the ground but by no means is it the top winner compared to others obviously.

I think that's the reason structure is so incredibly important though. I have a friend who I essentially fight with from time to time whom is an excellent ground fighter. I have found that over the years as my structure became more and more solid the harder it was for him to take me down. Elbows down with a good rooted stance will go a long way against a grappler. Applying the same principles will work too....once he has you in a clinch, as long as you still just apply forward pressure to his center, ideally his jawbone area by the ear, you can buy yourself some time. It's one time having control of their elbow doesn't mean having control of them, but test it out, that jawbone area is the clinch range version of the elbow....

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Originally Posted by mjw

I train in BJJ and WC so I can say they both deal with touch and pressure there are similarities in principles but it's like comparing apples to oranges......

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Agree entirely. IME Wing Chun can be used very effectively on the ground both from on top and below but the longer you are on the ground the more disadvantaged you are versus an art like BJJ (given the different contexts of the arts this isn't surprising). The primary aim of a Wing Chun practitioner should be to stay standing and if taken down, to get back up asap.

WC is a striking art. There is no answer for it on the ground. BJJ/wrestling/grappling in general aim to take down. Why? Because it negates the strike. You totally take away someones leverage for power shots and advantage of escape when you take them down.

I would go on but ronin stated all that really needs to be said about the whole subject.

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As long as I have practiced Wing Chun, I have understood it to be a 'complete martial art', meaning that its effectiveness is limited only by the creativity and application of the practitioner. Therefore, Wing Chun should have an answer to the "problem" of ground fighting and grappling.

I'm curious what you think. Within the confines of a traditional Chinese system, what training methods and strategies do you use to deal with grappling/ ground fighting?

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I disagree with the premise that WC is a "complete martial art" or that it "should have" an answer to groundfighting. It works best in standup fights and in confined spaces.

Is there some good reason any of us have to stay "Within the confines of a traditional Chinese system"? I can't see one.

After a decade of WC, I too was concerned about groundfighting and grappling. That's why I've been training BJJ in the 12 years since.

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.once he has you in a clinch, as long as you still just apply forward pressure to his center, ideally his jawbone area by the ear, you can buy yourself some time.

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That's a basic wrestling tactic.

Throughout history fighting with the hands and short weapons was the standard. Going to ground in a fight was not something that anyone endeavered to do. It usually meant death if you were in a battle.
Ground fighting is a relatively new thing. It came into being when fighting became a regulated sport. BJJ is a form of sport grapling. Sport fighting is done under a rule set and you don't have to fear having your brains kicked out. In south or West Dallas the only reason anyone would attempt to take you down is so that while they wrestle with you their friends can kick stuff off of you.
It would be wise to learn some form of fighting that can get you back up off the ground, like Jiujitsu. When learning WC I did learn several escape methods and lots of grappling techniques, but Jiujitsu has the most and the most effective. Forget about submission holds. They are completely worthless. You want techniques that can injure or break stuff on your opponent. Methods to get him off you as quickly as you can.

Martial Arts evolve base on needs.

Jujitsu evolved because Japanese warriors used to wear light armour, which makes striking and slashing less effective, unless the opponent is taken down to pierce swords through gaps between the armour, or to break arms/legs etc.

Generalizing, some northern styles Kung Fu were developed for the millitary, WC and some southern styles focus on gang warfare, others such as SE Asian countries developed arts suitable for tribal dispute.

In gang fights, go ground and you are dead.

Basically, pick the arts to fit your purpose, not to change the art to fit.

In KL22, we have a "kneeling horse hammer" for the purpose of take-downs and counter take-downs.

The only way to see if your WC works on the ground is to try it, time and time again. If you think that being on the floor takes away your power then I suggest you review your Biu jee etc and look at how you are generating power, then look at where you are trying to hit and hit the bits that require least power to do damage. The floor is a dangerous place and one should look to get back to the feet as quickly as possible using any means necessary.
Groundfighting as a protracted area of engagement is a sporting development (not new) found in wrestling and grappling, but going to the floor in a fight is a common occurance and every martial art with a background in real application (ie those not developed for sport) would originally have had methods for preventing going to the floor and for getting back to the feet if it happened. WC is no different

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Forget about submission holds. They are completely worthless.

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Its statements like this that lead me to believe you've never grappled a day in your life. Submissions like a RNC are useless? A guillotine? Arm bar, etc. I think your term of submission is hindered in that you think of rule sets for sport.

You want a system that totally devotes to movement on the ground and regaining your feet? Wrestling. The whole art is basically the ability to stay on your feet without getting takein down.

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Originally Posted by Dragonzbane76

Its statements like this that lead me to believe you've never grappled a day in your life. Submissions like a RNC are useless? A guillotine? Arm bar, etc. I think your term of submission is hindered in that you think of rule sets for sport.

You want a system that totally devotes to movement on the ground and regaining your feet? Wrestling. The whole art is basically the ability to stay on your feet without getting takein down.

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Im interested in hearing from him as well as to what the difference between submission holds..which are useless...and

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techniques that can injure or break stuff on your opponent

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is? im confused i know i only did grappling for about a decade but i thought submission holds where techniques that could break and damage things but which you simple controled the amount of pressure being used so this didnt happen unless the opponent didnt tap in time?:confused:

Lee Chian has shown over and over that he has no clue about grappling of any type.
While I wouldn't go so far as to call him a troll, I think he typlifies the ignorance that SOMEHOW is still in existence in TCMA about grappling and ground fighting.

As anyone that has grappled or even fought a grappler knows, submissions ARE breaks and dislocations.

Like I said before, the ONLY way you can test if your WC CAN fight on the ground is to do just that, get yourself to your nearest MMA or BJJ gym and test it for yourself.

Other than that, you are working by premise and hope and NOT by fact and experience.

WC is not a complete art. Not even close! It is primarily a striking art, with small aspects of grappling. Same as Muay Thai.

WC aspects could probably be used on the ground if you're striking, but really, what would be the point? Wouldn't learning BJJ/Sambo/Judo/Wrestling be a better use of your time?


Why look to Kung Fu for ALL your answers?