i had some questions regarding hung mun hand signals in hung sing choy li fut. what do these hand signals mean and does anyone have a link to youtube that demonstrates these hand signals?
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i had some questions regarding hung mun hand signals in hung sing choy li fut. what do these hand signals mean and does anyone have a link to youtube that demonstrates these hand signals?
are the hung mun hand signals in the forms? do you have a site that shows these hung mun signals?
:)Nice reply hsk, and it's a fascinating subject to me - the "codified" messages embedded in the forms / sessions. All TCMA systems seem to incorporate this sort of thing, whether in the movements themselves, or the names of the movements (poetry). Related largely to Taoist / Buddhist principles, but also to the underground movements as well. For instance, every movement in the Dragon Style bow has a purpose / meaning, with different levels of understanding as a student's understanding grows. Some people (Westerners) just label it as "Chinese Freemasonry", but don't bother to dig any deeper.
As the saying goes; those who know do not say, those who say do not know. It's largely irrelevant to a "western" student, except for the cultural interest. This seems to be one of the reasons traditional teachers wanted to keep these forms / sessions "intact" and unaltered.
It would make a really good thesis for a student of anthropology!
can someone please tell me which movements are signals and what the meaning is? im very curious. thanks.
also, in the lee koon hung sup ji kau da dvd, are there any hung mun signals in the form from that dvd?
?
bows at beginning and ending of form are frequently different from school to school, society to society. depending on origin.
the typical salute is a signal palm into fist extended forward. there is meaning in how high you hold this, whether the hand is covering the fist or resting on it if it is above the eyes or at heart level and so on.
there is double meaning within forms as well.
Do you have a kungfu teacher? If so, that really oughta be your source at this point.
I really don't think anyone is gonna give up their clubs symbols to someone on the net for the sake of it.
I guess if you know what to look for you can probably find a lot of hidden signals throughout southern styles.
thanks for the replies. can someone explain what each signal means?
look at the past posts of this guy he learns from books and dvds
Hi Thomas - please see the email I sent you through this forum - I haven't checked it for some time, but did actually get this one.
It's as simple as the Hung Gar "Iron Finger". And as complicated as a CLF or Dragon bow. It's fascinating if you're into the cultural / spiritual aspects of the arts. I'm sure HSK has much more to teach you about this than I do. However, being a Freemason, I appreciate the symbolism contained in the style(s), and the arcane references to philosophical texts. But, to apply this & use this in your personal life, you need to be a student of Buddhism / Daosim with a competent teacher. As I am not Chinese, I will never really "get it" (though I continue to try).
And it obviously has nothing to do with MMA, the death touch, or fighting. TCMA includes philosophy / poetry, healing, non-violent pursuits, and spiritual studies as well (self actualization).
can someone recommend any books about the chinese freemasons?
Are we talking about flashing gang signs here? And Chinese freemasons?
I'm not arguing about charters and such. I know there's an understanding.
However:
Quote:
In the West, the Tiandihui/Hongmen has sometimes adopted the name "Chinese Freemasons", on the basis of the strong superficial parallels between the two; both have quasi-religious aspects, make use of esoteric symbolism, and include many factions. However, they have different ethical systems, different origins, and different purposes.
The first Chinese immigrants arrived in 1820. George Washington was Master of his Lodge in the US. In fact, most of the people who signed the Declaration of Independance were Freemasons.
So I am not sure how much an influence Chinese FM had on Western FM, unless you are referring to Western in the sense of Europeans. Then it would be a whle different story.
I'm not getting into this tonight, but;
#1 - There is no such thing as Chinese "Freemasonry" - the term was adapted to make it more "palitable" for Westerners. The Tongs who took this name may have had "some" exposure to the HK British Freemasons, and have used this term to integrate themselves / deflect critisism from their own going-ons. And the British were every bit as secretive / racist as the Chinese (around inclusion / seclusion) when the Chinese were exposed to the few lodges in HK. They outlawed the tongs / triads back then, so like the book "who moved my cheese", sniff and scurry had to adapt.
#2 - Western Freemasonry MAY have been influenced by middle eastern traditions (Sufism / Egyptian Mysticism, etc.) - NOTHING to do with China. China has its own esoteric traditions far older and richer than Western Freemasonry. And there is NO evidence to prove that the two traditions collided, so far as I'm aware - except in the most elementary sense.
#3 - Canadian Provincial Lodges do not accept or recognize the term "Chinese Freemasons". And Canada is part of the Commonwealth / British tradition that gave the movement its roots, and governs the Craft. Having said that, I again would question / wonder, why any Chinese "secret" society would even want to be a part / attach their names to this Christian / Western Pagan tradition? They have a much richer history philosophicaly than we do!
I guess I did get into this tonight...and pardon the spelling - this site needs a spell-checker. I know I'm gonna rue posting this tomorrow!
Cheers - AQ
From a 1920 print of
Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry prepared for the Supreme Council of the Thirty-Third Degree, for the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States, and Published by its Authority. (1871, Grand Commander Albert Pike)
Amazing what you can find at the thrift store, LOL!Quote:
III.
The Master
To understand literally the symbols and allegories of Oriental books as to ante-historical matters, is to willfully close our eyes against the light. To translate the symbols into the trivial and commonplace, is the blundering of mediocrity.
All religious expression is symbolism; since we can describe only what we see, and the true objects of religion are THE SEEN....
IX.
Elect of the Nine
... It is not the mission of Masonry to engage in plots and conspiracies against the civil government. It is not the fanatical propagandist of any creed or theory; nor does it proclaim itself the enemy of kings. It is the apostle of liberty, equality, and fraternity; but it is not more the high-priest of republicanism than of constitutional monarchy. It contracts no entangling alliances with any sect of theorists, dreamers or philosophers...
X.
Illustrious Elect of the Fifteen
...Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it...
XX.
Grand Master of All Symbolic Lodges
Forget not that, more than three thousand years ago, Zoroaster said: "Be good, be kind, be humane, and charitable; love your fellows; console the afflicted; pardon those who have done you wrong." Nor more than two thousand three hundred years ago Confucius repeated, also quoting the language of those who had lived before himself: "Love thy neighbour as thyself; Do not do to others what thou wouldst not wish to be done to thyself: Forgive injuries. Forgive your enemy, be reconciled to him, give him assistance, invoke God on his behalf!"
Let not the morality of your Lodge be inferior to that of the Persian or the Chinese philosopher...
XXIV.
Prince of the Tabernacle
... Hence sprung the doctrine of the transmigration of souls; which Pythagoras taught as an allegory, and those who came after him received literally. Plato, like him, drew his doctrines from the East and the Mysteries... Plato says, that souls will not reach the term of their ills, until the revolutions of the world have restored them to their primitive condition, and purify them from the stains which they have contracted... The Curds, the Chinese, the Kabbalists, all held the same doctrine... The Mysteries among the Chinese and Japanese came from India, and were founded on the same principles and with familiar rites... The main features of the Druidical Mysteries resembled those of the Orient.
XXV.
Knight of the Brazen Serpent
Abulfaragius says that the seven great primitive nations, from whom all others descended, the Persians, Chaldaeans, Greeks, Egyptians, Turks, Indians, and Chinese, all originally were Sabaeists, and worshipped the Stars... And the Chinese built Temples to Heaven, the Earth, and genii of the air, of the water, of the mountains, and of the stars, to the sea dragon, and to the planet Mars... The Couciet [Kou Xie? Ku Hsieh?], a Chinese book, speaks of a palace composed of four buildings, whose gates looked toward the four corners of the world. That on the East was dedicated to the new moons of the months of Spring; that on the West to those of Autumn; that on the South to those of Summer; and that on the North to those of Winter: and in this palace the Emperor and his grandees sacrificed a lamb, the animal that represented the sun at the Vernal equinox... The number five was sacred among the Chinese, as that of the planets other than the Sun and Moon. Astrology consecrated the numbers twelve, seven, thirty, and thee hundred and sixty; and everywhere SEVEN, the number of the planets, was as sacred as TWELVE, that of the signs, the months, the oriental cycles, and the sections of the horizon... In China, astrology taught the mode of governing the State and families...
XXXII.
Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret
The Occult Science of the Ancient Magi was concealed under the shadows of the Ancient Mysteries: it was imperfectly revealed or rather disfigured by the Gnostics: it is guessed at under the obscurities that cover the pretended crimes of the Templars; and it is found enveloped in enigmas that seem impenetrable, in the Rites of the Highest Masonry.
Magism was the Science of Abraham and Orpheus, of Confucius and Zoroaster... Every degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, from the first to the thirty-second, teaches by its ceremonial as well as by its instruction, that the noblest purpose of life and the highest duty of man are to strive incessantly and vigorously to win the mastery of everything, of that which in him is spiritual and divine, over that which is material and sensual; so that in him also, as in the Universe which God governs, Harmony and Beauty may be the result of a just equilibrium... From the mutual action and reaction of each of these pairs of opposites and contraries results that which with them forms the Triangle, to all the Ancient Sages the expressive symbol of the Deity... It is the right angled Triangle, representing man, as a union of the spiritual and material, of the divine and human. The base... represents the Deity and the Divine; the perpendicular... represents the Earth, the Material, and the Human; and the hypotenuse... represents that nature which is produced by the union of the Divine and Human, the Soul and the Body... And as in each Triangle of Perfection, one is three and three are one, so man is one, though of a double nature; and he attains the purposes of his being only when the two natures that are in him are in just equilibrium; and his life is a success only when it too is in harmony, and beautiful, like the great Harmonies of God and the Universe. Such, my Brother, is the TRUE word of a Master Mason; such the true ROYAL SECRET, which makes possible, and shall at length make real, the HOLY EMPIRE of true Masonic Brotherhood. GLORIA DEI EST CELARE VERBUM. AMEN.
Sounds like the more community minded Chinese tongs and the Freemasons would at least enjoy a round of golf together.
P.S. How interesting - this is the 33rd reply.
You're welcome. :)
is that only your lodge, or are all Chinese Freemason lodges accepted by the Grand Lodge and recognized as Free and Accepted Masons?
There doesn't seem to be one on the NYC Grand Lodge's list of locations.
Do you know when the Ghee Kung Tong was accepted into the Masonic order? I'm asking because I'd be interested to know whether or not it was before or after Albert Pike wrote his book. If it was before, there's a chance that the Chinese related information within it came from the Ghee Kung Tong.
Phil:
I'm no Mason, so what I'm about to say is an educated guess only. Skimming the book, it seems laid out degree by degree, with curriculum outlines in each chapter, indicating what Masons of that particular degree should learn, understand and do. The book starts with basic maths, symbols, ideals and protocols, then moves on to Christian and Jewish allegory (King Solomon, etc,) then Greek and Roman, then Egyptian, then Persian/Indian, and finally Zorastrian/Chinese, with lots of other smaller cultures being mentioned in the process. Paganism is also threaded throughout.
Back in the middle ages, that was the big Masonic "secret" - they weren't Christian. Apparently, the knights of the Crusades were conflicted, unable to reconcile their faith with all the death, violence and horror commited by both sides. Good people died while evil people lived. While fighting in the middle East, they came across the Zoroastrians, whose philosophies were dualistic and humanistic as opposed to monotheistic. The Zoroastrian philosophy allowed the Knights to better come to terms with the wars. When they returned to Europe, they brought their newfound doctrines with them. They were still Christian in name and root faith, though, so they feared excommunication just like anyone else at that time. As a result, they could not reveal their non-Christian perspectives in public. So they kept them up in Private, and when they allied with the Masons, they spread their new philosophy, which eventually developed into the Freemasons we know today. But yeah, that's supposedly the true big "secret" - they were heretics of their time.
For a touch of levity, I submit this assortnment of hand signs with descriptions.
;D
http://www.cracked.com/article_14956...ocal-gang.html
has anyone read the dragon syndicates book by martin booth? there's a few pictures in that book with triad hand signs. I'm not sure which triads they belong to though
I always thought hand signals were supposed to be really obscure and unnoticeable unless you looked for it... like the way you're holding something, or passing something?
u r proud of it because?
my cousin was sold by his best friend as a drug slave to triads in guangdong 8 years ago. they asked for 7000 yuan ransom , took the money and kept him.
i respect the ming patriotic ideals of the hong men so i wont say anything bad on the internet about them, and the internet isnt for criticisms like that, but some white kung fu hobbyist latching on to chinese gangster culture to be cool, i find that offensive
Check out the Hong Kong triad movie called Election or Triad Election. Directed by Johnny To. There is a scene that breaks down the history of the triads and shows some guys doing Hung Mun Hand signs. Good movie as well. It focuses on the Wo Sing tong.
You could also look into mudras which are hand forms used with meditations to form intention for the meditator.
Election is a fairly newer movie that starred Yam Dat Wa (Simon Yam) and Koo Tin Lok (Louis Koo). The 1st movie was good, the 2nd one not very good.
Frank-
Here is an interesting article from The grand Lodge in Vancouver in regards to the Hung Men.
http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/histor...ons/index.html
This information is pretty much accepted in western masonic orders.
I have read extensively and yes I agree, the origins are not 100% clear and indeed there is a lot of debate about it. A lot of this comes from the actual establishment of the lodges in the 1700's. But they assuredly did not spring into existence unformed and in fact were very well formed.
They in fact do not exclude the Chinese and there are a great deal of Free and Accepted Masons who are Chinese, Indian, Arabic, European, African, you name it and they are there in the rank and file of the brotherhood worldwide. :)
However, I would add that there is no "G" in chinese ideograms and I would also add that a lot of research beyond that page has been done on the subject.
In the 1800's the tong borrowed the Masonic symbol with G to gain acceptance in the west. If they were Freemasons they would be simply that. Not a separate and apart order. Their lodges would be gathered under grand lodges and their members would have tokens and grips that would gain them access to all masonic lodges across the world. There odges would be numbered and counted wit the rest around the world. However, this is not the case.
Quite simply, they are two separate entities. Of course they recognize each other. That is not disputed. And the Free and Accepted Masons don't begrudge the Chinese freemasons for their calling themselves Masons. they just aren't part of that tradition and the Free and accepted masons aren't part of the traditions of the Hung Men.
They don't flow together, they don't follow the same practices, they don't share the same principles or charters or anything beyond some superficial things. they do not even have the same set up in the lodges.
A Chinese freemasons lodge has nothing in it that bears similarity to a Freemasons lodge. They certainly don't use the language, names, tokens, grips or rituals of the western traditions.
If you go deep enough yourself you'll see it. There are a great deal of publications that reveal a great deal of information about Free and Accepted Masons in the western traditions.
Chinese freemasons cannot go to any masonic lodge and enter as free and accepted masons.
Really that's all I have to say about it. My family is littered with free and accepted masons going back generations.
The Hung Men and their predecessor was completely whole and apart from Western traditions of freemasonry and did not adopt the western symbol until the 1800's. The Heaven/Earth society goes back so far in antiquity it is not part of what is considered modern freemasonry.
The chinese indeed did have their own secret societies. They did not use the term freemasons until the 1800's when they had their contacts with Lodges in the east.Quote:
out of context. i meant to say chinese were not freemasons because they were chinese was the issue. they may not be of western freemasons, but the chinese had their own freemasons pr societies.
Chinese freemasons use the G. Use of the different set is not an issue, but I can go take a picture of the Hung Men building on Dundas street here in my city and it quite clearly shows the CHinese freemasons using the "G". For instance, as shown in that article the Hung Men building on Pender street in Vancouver shows this:Quote:
Right. The HUNG society Chinese Freemasons uses "洪" or another set of characters connected to the Hung Mun instead that of the "G".
http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/histor...ns/doorway.jpg
What I mean by that is if they were part of the order of free and accepted masons of the western tradition. My "interpretation" of what a freemason is is not my interpretation. It's pretty much laid out in the principles of freemasonry as to what a freemason is and represents in society.Quote:
Can you tell me what that means? or what your interpretation of what a Freemason really is?
Also, Freemasons in the western tradition are not a secret society. They are open to any man to join. the only secrets are the grips and tokens and those are only secret so as to know who's knocking on the door and who should be allowed into lodge and identification of degree work done etc etc.
Perhaps I'm not being clear. Yes, the Hung Men have lodges. However, you as a member of Hung men do not have access to the almost 5000 Freemasons lodges with it's 5 million members worldwide and their lodges throughout the world.
You may very well gain entry to Hung Men lodges, but not to Masonic lodges of the western traditions. Simply because you are not recognized as a Freemason even though you are a Hung Men member with full privileges to that society. Any member of the Hung Men may join a Masonic lodge of the western tradition. They are not mutual to each other. All other Masonic lodges are in the western tradition around the world.
A freemason in the US or Canada or anywhere for instance, can go and enter a lodge in Scotland, or Germany. or England or France or Italy or anywhere. He will have his grips and his tokens that will give him access and the only that he will be asked to leave for is if there is degree work being done that is of a level that i above his own.
so yes, you can go to all the other Hung Men lodges without a doubt! I am not disputing that in the least.
I am saying that the Hung Men and The western tradition of Freemasonry are not mutual and do not share mutual access or principles or focus or degree work or tradition and so on.
Hence my original statement that beyond some superficial things, Chinese Freemasons and Free and Accepted Masons of the western tradition are not mutual to each other nor are they connected in anyway beyond that superficiality.
sorry if I was being unclear.