Unusual Fists!

Hey team,

Ever punched some ***t square in the face and your fist just slips off to the side and it does them no damage and you ***k your hand in the process?

The contact shape of the surface impacting with another surface is real important in terms of the damage done, the transfer of momentum, and the cool noise it makes.

The entire body can be considered an alternating array of hard and soft targets, and sharp and blunt weapons.


So in your MA careers what unusual striking surfaces (body parts, fist shapes etc. but no weapons) have you used and against what targets, and how satisfying was the impact?

i had few encounters. but i once used a phoenix-eye fist. it was like a vertical punch but rotated out laterally a bit; as if you're turning the hand palm up. my target was the nose, but the phoenix eye landed in the eye. two for one. as for how satisfying it was, i didn't stuck around...

The weakest part of your arm will be your wrist. You can punch stuff all day long and it will not always strengthen it like you would like it. Just wrist exercises alone will strengthen it more. Another mistake people make is to try to hit too hard and try to follow through with it. Following through is not necessary. In fact, once the fist impacts and most of the force of impact is transfered into the target, any follow through amounts to nothing more than a shove. The straight punch is far less likely to cause twisting or hyper extending the wrist. I have seen it so many times when people go to swinging and the wrist does not stand up to the force. It seems to hurt more if it breaks over toward the inside, which I think might be the weakest direction. If you shoot straight and only make good solid contact and withdraw you will not break anything on your own arm, but will put just as much impact into the target. One of the most dangerous things is punching upward or downward into the area of the mouth. I have seen fingers almost severed from the hand when they struck a mouth full of teeth. It always seems to get infected too, no matter how many shots you get.
If you concentrate on the technique you use in the punch it will serve you better than just punching as hard as you can into a heavy bag. Brute force works, but if you can focus that force better you can take the brute part out of it.

LCP - My experience in life renders everything you just said moot.

You can strengthen your wrist. You can improve structure. Follow through is recommended in ALL power punching.

I don't know where or what you learned, but man...that needs some correction.
Just saying. :)

My first school was big on various fist shapes as well as open hand techniques (palm strikes & back hands).

The only anecdote I have of someone being pretty successful with fist shapes was one of my sihings. He trained leopard fist exclusively. He would do round after round on the heavybag. He wouldn't blast with it to the power of say a cross, his strikes were more like jabs, but definitely not taps. He would use it on your defense. If you had an extended guard, your forearms and hands were going to get torn up. Even with a tight boxing guard, he was going to go after it. He had long reach and the leopard fist would give him an extra inch. It only took a shot or two, but your arms & hands would start to go numb or cramp from the shots to your guard. Instinct would take over and you would find yourself dropping your hands so you didn't have to take it anymore - even if you told yourself not to. It's very much like muay thai's "cracking the shell". Thing is, any type of glove would totally nullify this strategy, so the mileage for the amount of effort required might be limited.

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Originally Posted by David Jamieson

LCP - My experience in life renders everything you just said moot.

You can strengthen your wrist. You can improve structure. Follow through is recommended in ALL power punching.

I don't know where or what you learned, but man...that needs some correction.
Just saying. :)

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I know it is recommended by most systems, but then again, the problem here is the wrist breaking over and not holding up to the power in the punch. When that happens, the power is lost and the wrist can sustain damage. I can still hit harder than anyone I personally know, and I know some hard hitting dudes. I don't have that problem. I am about naturally hitting with all the force I can muster and without self injury. I have had enough experience in my own life to make me realize that I am correct in this and I just gave the best advice he can get on a forum. Whether or not he utilizes it is up to him I guess.
Now, as far as strengthening the wrist, it should be done with wrist exercises for that purpose. Striking a heavy bag will not strengthen the wrist as much as it will cause it injure. Hitting before the wrist is ready makes it sustain shock injury to the joint, and continuing to do it only makes it worse. You need to strengthen it before pounding on stuff.
One very good way to strengthen the wrists is to use twisting weights. a steel pipe across 2 solid objects, a rope around that and down to about 100 pounds or more of dumb bell weights. You roll the rope up forward, then once the weights are up as high as you can roll them, you slowly roll them back down. This strengthens the wrists in both directions. Do this for several months and you can take quite a bit of punch force without the wrists breaking over on you.

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Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po

Another mistake people make is to try to hit too hard and try to follow through with it. Following through is not necessary. In fact, once the fist impacts and most of the force of impact is transfered into the target, any follow through amounts to nothing more than a shove.

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In boxing, the shove is called "pushing your punches".
A lot of time is spent on the proper transference of power in to what you are hitting.

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Originally Posted by RenDaHai

Hey team,

Ever punched some ***t square in the face and your fist just slips off to the side and it does them no damage and you ***k your hand in the process?

The contact shape of the surface impacting with another surface is real important in terms of the damage done, the transfer of momentum, and the cool noise it makes.

The entire body can be considered an alternating array of hard and soft targets, and sharp and blunt weapons.


So in your MA careers what unusual striking surfaces (body parts, fist shapes etc. but no weapons) have you used and against what targets, and how satisfying was the impact?

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in tong bei

we have the knuckle protrusion of the index finger (pheonix eye or feng yan chui)

the knuckle protrusion of the midder finger (bone penetrating or tou gu chui)

they are designed to deliver focused strike on soft spots of the opponent

We practice on a pad or flour bag on a table or hanging bag

but one has to be very careful about the alignment of the wrist and elbow to shoulder

not done right

wrist hurts bad

or shoulder hurts bad

etc etc

in actual use, they are to deliver only a small or focused enough power.

if you twist and turn or drilling

you may go forward, upward etc

it is called zuan chuan/zhang (one of the 5 main palm/fist)

etc etc

:)

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Originally Posted by SPJ

in tong bei

we have the knuckle protrusion of the index finger (pheonix eye or feng yan chui)

the knuckle protrusion of the midder finger (bone penetrating or tou gu chui)

they are designed to deliver focused strike on soft spots of the opponent

We practice on a pad or flour bag on a table or hanging bag

but one has to be very careful about the alignment of the wrist and elbow to shoulder

not done right

wrist hurts bad

or shoulder hurts bad

etc etc

in actual use, they are to deliver only a small or focused enough power.

if you twist and turn or drilling

you may go forward, upward etc

it is called zuan chuan/zhang (one of the 5 main palm/fist)

etc etc

:)

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There is a reason why it hurts if it is done wrong or out of alignment. In a fight you will seldom have things perfectly aligned, so the chances of injuring ones self is greater. Now, these knuckle fists are literally gouging weapons, designed to gouge at an opponent and should never be used as a power punch weapon. Sure, the knuckle will cause pain and injury at the point of contact, but it will not have knockout power of any sort. A slap with the flat palm will send more shock power into a persons head than a fist. The fist far more than a gouging weapon. Shock is what renders an opponent sensless or knocks them out. A fist can knock you out, but it has to land solidly to send the shock wave.
There will be times when you get into a situation you can't get out of easily. A headlock, choke, just a bunch of things. The knuckle gouges( also used in jiujitsu) come in pretty handy to make someone release you. The back of the hand, the jaw in front of the ear, the ribs, the face. Anywhere that bone and nerves come close to the surface. These are good weapons, but you have to be realistic in their application. They are very good in certain situations, not so good in others.

bottom line is that if you are not using the heavy bag, the mitts, thai pads and sparring you are simply not developing correct structure for striking.

bag and mitts gets your structure and timing refined somewhat, but drilling with a partner, sparring etc will teach you how to move/plant/strike/move/plant strike/ cover, step etc.

If you are still trying to use just forms, you are still at the beginning and have not progressed your style to the point where you are able to make a short toolbox for yourself to draw upon in a real confrontation.

I use forms for structural maintenance, analysis of style, and of course fun and fitness. I take them apart, break them down and beat the stuffing out of a heavy bag in rounds. When I have a partner to work with, mitts and pads and drills or sparring.

That is traditional in scope and usage fully.

Preparing for the "it doesn't work because you don't see it in the ring" ...............
:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Yao Sing

Preparing for the "it doesn't work because you don't see it in the ring" ...............
:rolleyes:

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lol. I haven't been "in the ring" since the 80s.

this stuff still works good nevertheless.

You have to understand that there are simple minded noobs in any MA culture. MMA, Karate, Kung Fu you name it and there is a percentage of it that just doesn't get it yet or will never get it.

then there's trolls.

then there are people who can in fact teach, but are still a bit thick.

I mean, we're talking about Martial arts here, not some refined understanding of the universe. It is not complex to make violence. It is made complex in some ways, heck there are whole styles of utter rot because they are a pile of unrealistic untested nonsense. In all avenues.

this does not excuse the fact that in order to swim you MUST go into water at some point.

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Originally Posted by RenDaHai

So in your MA careers what unusual striking surfaces (body parts, fist shapes etc. but no weapons) have you used and against what targets, and how satisfying was the impact?

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Nuhouquan taught me the importance of yang and yin surface palm strikes. Any part of the cranium (minus the face), the diaphragm and kidneys are wonderful targets. They are also very easy targets since we fight at very close quarters. Moving into a clinch with a palm strike slightly above the occipital protuberance at the back of the cranium before hooking the neck is a great way to *****-slap your opponent.

Similar to the phoenix eye fist (鳳 眼 拳 - fèng yǎn quán) is the Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan awl shaped fist (錐 子 拳 - zhuī zì quán) which uses the middle knuckle extended. It is a nasty strike for cavity presses when up close and personal.

I found both of the above methods to be very practical for bare-fisted fighting in my ornerier days. :)

Ref.: wrist strenght

IME, wrist strenght improvement is one of the virtues of weapons practice. If I may give modesty a break here, back when I did sword training with a rather heavy steel blade, my wrist was badass. I had a friend who lifted and enjoyed arm wrestling. Although he had a bigger biceps, I could hold my own by bending his hand and thus taking away some of his force; he was dumbfolded on how much stronger my wrist was.

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Originally Posted by Sardinkahnikov

Ref.: wrist strenght

IME, wrist strenght improvement is one of the virtues of weapons practice. If I may give modesty a break here, back when I did sword training with a rather heavy steel blade, my wrist was badass. I had a friend who lifted and enjoyed arm wrestling. Although he had a bigger biceps, I could hold my own by bending his hand and thus taking away some of his force; he was dumbfolded on how much stronger my wrist was.

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You can probably hit with tremendous force as well. The wrist being the weakest link in the arm makes the arm less effective in delivering force. That is why I said the wrist should be strengthened first and then practice hitting. Straight on punches can maintain stability better than one that is curling into a target or coming at an odd angle. The rolling exercises make the fist much stronger for the strike, and on impact sort of rolls into the impact area. It can make all the difference in the world. If you start off striking with a weak wrist, you have to sustain a great deal of stress and strain on the wrist joints, and can even sustain injury from the same. Just jumping in and starting to swing is what a lot of people do, and eventually might even toughen the wrist some, but this is also why we hear of so much self injury during training.