Hey guys,
I'm interested in incorporating some other things into my training. Anyone have any advice or experience using focus mitts to train wing chun striking and movement?
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Hey guys,
I'm interested in incorporating some other things into my training. Anyone have any advice or experience using focus mitts to train wing chun striking and movement?
I think Thai pads work well allowing you to work chasing footwork, angling and turning, and driving in much better than boxing pads because they provide a flat plane that can function like the centre of an opponent and can be punched with both fists.
A body shield is also really good
Used them a bunch in the past, these days i prefer thai pads.
What attributes are you trying to increase specifically?
I was thinking for combinations with distance. training to not over extend. Obviously footwork would be a huge byproduct. also, I think it would be useful to have your partner slap/tap you with the other pad randomly while your hitting the other mitt intentionally trying to catch your timing. I dont know. Just ideas stolen from boxing! My line already has pretty good movement much more akin to upright boxing if you will. in my opinion. So I think maybe some intermixing of training might help. Oh yeah, also low high strikes. It seems that a lot of people, including myself, don't really generate as much power with low/high as they should/could.
Quite hard to do with wing chun. What do you plan to do with pads thrown at you? Move or cover like a boxer? Having them throw punches at you, move, pressure you and so on while you both wear body protectors is more useful I think. That way you can work the wing chun defensive punching approach vs a more conventional boxing styleQuote:
Originally Posted by mvbrown21
Not quite sure yet. Just an idea right now. I like the idea though. Thai pads and geared up sparring is boring to me in a lot of ways. I'm already pretty good at getting at the body. I'm more interested in doing combinations and training accuracy. That's how you get them. A nice combo with good timing does a thousand times more than chain attacking into the same target. And i dont mean dont attack center. Its one of the benefits the rotation wc1277 talks about. high/low/left/right, its all good! Hitting the same target is unrealistic anyway if you really hit them with the first one.Quote:
Originally Posted by guy b.
The reason for using focus mitts in WCK would be the exact same reason boxers use them, and the exact same reason boxing trainers like Freddie Roach use them. It provides a realtime 1-on-1 feedback session platform for training strikes with realistic movement. So for a WCK sifu, for example, this would provide an ideal private lesson environment to build someone's hand skill progressively to include offense and defense.
There is absolutely nothing about a focus mitt and mma glove (5oz) environment that dictates that WHAT you train has to be boxing and not WCK. If you think there is, then perhaps what's wrong is your WCK or your inflexible interpretation of it, not the hand wraps or targets you are using.
Thai pads if you are involving kicks, knees and elbows into the sessions. Focus mitts train speed and accuracy (precision striking to smaller target) with the hands. You can train mostly the same things with either, my feel is that the mitts are a little quicker pace and help hone in my hand accuracy a little better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric_H
A Thai pad is better I think because you are mostly chasing centre in wing chun, not cracking off shots in all directions like a boxer. You can hit the thai pad with both hands and it can be moved around like a shifting opponent. A body shield on a moving opponent with attacking arms is even better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfaring
I actually agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by guy b.
Over the years ive had issues wiith both my elbows (compacted ulnar nerve) and have had trouble holding focus mitts when boxing so i often use the Thai pads in both Thai and boxing training.
I played with both and found the MT pads a better fit, IMO, for WC for much the same reasons as above. Having said that, i have never really felt the need to us a body shield but its not to say im against it
Makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by guy b.
First, no mitt session is "cracking off shots in all directions", even by a boxer. Focus mitts are held near pertinent targets, and at the same range as pertinent targets.
Second, here's a novel concept - you can actually hold EITHER focus mitts or thai pads at or near your centerline. WOW!!!!! And the benefit of focus mitts near your centerline is to train a more specific and smaller target near your centerline, say closer to COG.
Third, "You can hit the thai pad with both hands and it can be moved around like a shifting opponent". Do I really need to point out that you also can hit focus mitts with both hands and move them around faster like a shifting opponent as they weigh a lot less than thai pads??? OK I didn't think so.
The body shields do work well, and I see many boxing and MT / MMA coaches using body shields in combo with focus mitts. Not so much body shield + thai pad as it's a little redundant.
This is a great reason to use thai pads over focus mitts. In your situation repetitive impact trauma would be greater with the lever of the impact point of focus mitts on your elbow vs. having the entire forearm covered.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennR
"a better fit for WC"Quote:
I played with both and found the MT pads a better fit, IMO, for WC for much the same reasons as above. Having said that, i have never really felt the need to us a body shield but its not to say im against it
Why can people not see training methods and value inherently and have to tack on what is and is not appropriate for WCK?
That's a completely false statement. Each target - thai pads or focus mitts are specifically engineered to develop different characteristics. They do overlap a bit. Use the proper thing to develop the attribute you want. Stop generalizing "for all WCK".
My experience of focus mitts is that they are held in convenient places to develop specific punches rather than in realistic places wrt a moving opponent. I don't find that focus mitts map as well to a real moving opponent as Thai pads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfaring
Thai pad presents a plane like a body and it actually has a centre you can hit. A focus pad presents a point. You can hold it in front of your cog but then why not just wear a body shield?Quote:
Second, here's a novel concept - you can actually hold EITHER focus mitts or thai pads at or near your centerline.
A Thai pad can be moved as fast as a shifting opponent and tends to keep in a realistic frame of movement. Focus mitts can certainly be moved faster but they can also be moved unrealistically much more easily which trains exactly nothing. Good focus mitt work is very rare. Thai pads much easier to get right.Quote:
Third, "You can hit the thai pad with both hands and it can be moved around like a shifting opponent". Do I really need to point out that you also can hit focus mitts with both hands and move them around faster like a shifting opponent as they weigh a lot less than thai pads?
Body shield and nothing is what I use. Then you have your hands free to help the trainee learn the purpose of wing chun while being able to hit you to the bodyQuote:
The body shields do work well, and I see many boxing and MT / MMA coaches using body shields in combo with focus mitts. Not so much body shield + thai pad as it's a little redundant.
Wing chun is a certain thing with certain characteristics. Some training methods fit better than some others. I prefer Thai pads because I think they fit wing chun better. If you prefer focus mitts then that is your perogativeQuote:
Originally Posted by Wayfaring
Yep, i get the striker to hit towards the base of the pad (closer to the elbow) to decrease the leverage aspect which is a problem with mittsQuote:
This is a great reason to use thai pads over focus mitts. In your situation repetitive impact trauma would be greater with the lever of the impact point of focus mitts on your elbow vs. having the entire forearm covered.
I never said i dont use mitts, but that my preference is for thai pads with WC. On top of the reasons Guy gave i can also elbow, knee and kick them which isnt so easy with mitts and, FWIW, i can do most things on the pads i can do on mitts but not quite as qucick though its never been a problem to date.Quote:
"a better fit for WC"
Why can people not see training methods and value inherently and have to tack on what is and is not appropriate for WCK?
True, and its the characterstics developed on Thai Pads that i prefer to those on the mitts for a WCerQuote:
That's a completely false statement. Each target - thai pads or focus mitts are specifically engineered to develop different characteristics. They do overlap a bit. Use the proper thing to develop the attribute you want. Stop generalizing "for all WCK".
I think combining Thai pads with belly pad, (as in MT) is very good because you can easily train hand combos with front kicks. Also, if you have a powerful kicker, the pads don't offer much resistance for things like side kick or spinning back kick. Double stacked pads over the belly pad is safer to the holder and offers much more resistance to the kicker, allowing him to move your entire body with the kick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfaring
all true..........Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette
Sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennR
what characteristics "for a WCer" specifically do you think MT pads fit?Quote:
True, and its the characterstics developed on Thai Pads that i prefer to those on the mitts for a WCer
I use focus mits with students roughly every other class. But, we don't use them just to practice WC striking. While that is part of the idea, we also use them to simulate attacks to build skill with 4-gate defense tactics. One example would be entering in on the student with a lead mit for them to strike on center, and then hook the same mit around at their head causing a different reaction, say a biu sau while striking on center with the other hand (which I set up the other mit for). Or hook the rear mit to somewhat simulate a jab/cross and more of a touch-and-go scenario.
While I can see where thai pads would be useful in some scenarios, they do not work well at all for what I described above. Focus mits are smaller, lighter, and you can move faster with them to give the student far more pressure & challenge.
Exactly what I'm talking about....Quote:
Originally Posted by JPinAZ
All the different pads are useful since they permit you to practice and sharpen your wing chun tools. One thing we've done is take Mayweather's pad idea and there are some good YouTube tutorials on it and adjust it to use wing chun actions.
Now that id like to seeQuote:
Originally Posted by tc101
It might sound funny, but i find the MT pads brace a lot better and properly held feel a bit like a wall bag full of beans, it mush jarder to get that feel on mitts IMOQuote:
what characteristics "for a WCer" specifically do you think MT pads fit?
The WC punch has a short range of power and i find the pads better to train this than the mitts.... call it personal choice.
Sure, you can probably work mitts quicker and better for combinations but IMO WC isnt about combinations, its about straight line punching, getting his COG and finishing the job. Its not boxing and from a WC point of view im not looking for combinations........ im looking to finish the job quickly
Ozzy Dave put up my favourite description of WC (wish i could find that post), it went something like "WC is an ambush style, the confrontation starts , you occupy the centre and overwhelm with unsuspected straight punches"
Or something like that........ and with that in mind i find the MT better
Yeah, and when we work mits, we're not just holding a static target for the student to strike, we are 'popping' the mits most of the time and giving force feedback and structure tests in every shot. It's a lot different than just holding up a MT pad for a student to wail away on. Again, that's got it's time/place as well, but a bit limiting when building WC skills IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfaring
What do you think Mayweather padwork is developing?Quote:
Originally Posted by tc101
Who is "just holding up a MT pad for a student to wail away on"?Quote:
Originally Posted by JPinAZ
The weight difference can feel like that. In reality you can do almost the same things with both. Kicks, knees are the why for MT pads.Quote:
Originally Posted by guy b.
I don't know, people that have little understanding of how to develop skills with pads/mits? I've seen it done, and you can find plenty of examples on youtube. But to be fair, I don't think that's all you do with MT pad, and what I said might have implied that. So maybe I should have said 'pad' in general, because one can just 'wail away on' any of them I guess. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by guy b.
It looks like Ernie Barrios has put in a lot of time developing some great mitt drills.
Personally I've always used mitts in my training. You can really work a lot of things - structure, angles, footwork, timing. Sky's the limit. Just got to go about it intelligently and creatively.
Like JPinAZ I prefer the smaller focus mitts.