Training Variations

Hello Everyone,
So I am still in my first year of kung fu training (based in Urumqi, China presently, although I have studied abit at the Shaolin Temple) and I have stumbled upon an issue with variations in training and forms. I have encountered this with Wu Bu Quan, Lian Huan Quan and with Jiu Jie Bian training where different instructors have variations in their technique (slightly different footwork, variations on open palms or fists for different parts of the form.)

I am wondering what is the polite way to highlight to someone that you recognize that they are teaching you one way, but that you have also seen it done another way. I am starting to get very frustrated because I am attempting to understand the variations, but it means practicing a few different ways, which annoys the instructors. I mean I feel like what I learned at the Shaolin Temple is probably correct, but I also want to be respectful to other instructors. I also encounter a language barrier which does not help the situation.

Any advice would be appreciated :)

Hi.

Since you're still in your first year of KF training, I would recommend that you do it in whatever way your present teacher is teaching it. For some (many?) teachers, mentioning you learned it another way somewhere else can be seen as disrespectful or rude. A teacher might say, "If you like it so much the other way, go back to them and do it their way."

In fact, in your first year of training, the most important thing is developing a solid basic foundation. Therefore, if possible, it's best if you can find one *good* school that you feel matches what YOU want out of training, and stick to that one school, instead of going to multiple schools. At least until your foundation and basic understanding is developed. Otherwise, you risk becoming confused and pulled in different directions.

As for variations in forms, that is not uncommon in many traditional Chinese martial arts systems. Many schools or groups within the same styles will do the same forms with minor or major variations. This could be due to differences in lineages, or simply individual differences//experiences/preferences of the teachers themselves, or their own teachers. The forms won't be standardized across the board like the kata are, for example, in JKA Shotokan Karate, or the taolu in modern Wushu.

Hello Jimbo,
Thank you for the advice,

Where I am in Urumqi there is very little in the way of formal schools that adults can go to, most of it is only for kids or what you can find from word of mouth. Both instructors I have found have been by sure dumb luck, one who happens to work out at the same gym as me and another who saw me practicing the chain whip in the park.

I am starting to feel exactly what you described about confused and pulled in multiple directions, hence why I went to Shaolin for formal instruction and some other stuff I have gotten in order to supplement my studies and break through the language barrier.

Train to be able to execute every variation. That's where the juice is. Literal-ism is lifeless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j.ouellet23

Hello Jimbo,
Thank you for the advice,

Where I am in Urumqi there is very little in the way of formal schools that adults can go to, most of it is only for kids or what you can find from word of mouth. Both instructors I have found have been by sure dumb luck, one who happens to work out at the same gym as me and another who saw me practicing the chain whip in the park.

I am starting to feel exactly what you described about confused and pulled in multiple directions, hence why I went to Shaolin for formal instruction and some other stuff I have gotten in order to supplement my studies and break through the language barrier.

---

If it's mainly variations in the forms, I wouldn't worry to much about it. If your fundamentals are sound and you have some understanding of the applications, variations in forms are not such a big deal (IMO). I spent close to a decade in Taiwan and trained under two different Tanglang quan (Northern Mantis style) teachers. I was with the first teacher for nearly 4 years before switching to another school. I learned different versions of some of the same forms I had learned in the first school. Among those forms I learned second variations of included: Xiao Hu Yen, Beng Bu, Duo Gang, and Lan Jie. Some of the variations were minor, but some were very different. I preferred the second versions, but by then my understanding of Mantis style was different from before. Because of that, I discontinued practicing the versions I'd learned at the first school. My second Mantis teacher was aware of my previous Mantis experience before I began training with him, though. Because I had developed a solid base in the style at the first school, the switchover was pretty easy. The first teacher was elderly and did not emphasize much application; the second teacher was a young man (only a couple years older than myself at that point) and emphasized the sparring/fighting aspect more, hence the reason for my switch.

All of which matters little now, as I've been a Choy Lee Fut practitioner for the past 25 years, and no longer train Mantis style, although I have retained and incorporated some of the skills from Mantis into my personal style (if it works, why throw it away). Nothing's ever wasted. All of your experiences contributes to your growth as a MAist.

BTW, I highly recommend you develop your ability to communicate fluently in Mandarin. It will definitely help your practice in China. I could not have lived, studied, or had the rich experiences in Taiwan the way I did without it. Sadly, I've lost a lot of it in the decades since leaving Taiwan.

Thanks Jimbo,
The mandarin is coming along after nearly two years here, slow and steady. :)

Hi J,

I understand your difficulty and the frustration involved. I myself spent over 10 years in Songshan and I can tell you even within the Shaolin temple there are also many variations and there is no correct version of anything.

The first thing to understand is that, as Jimbo said, there really isn't a standard. These are aspects of culture that have persisted for many generations and so there are many ways of doing things.

The second is that, as you are probably discovering after spending some time in China, Chinese traditional culture sees processes where western culture sees things. In the beginning of LianHuanQuan you may see one person doing a palm with a heel kick and another person doing a punch with a toe kick you categorize them as different moves, but there is no essential difference.

What we call "moves" in Kung fu are described by the character 勢 in traditional Chinese. There is no way to translate this character, but the best attempt I have seen is "giving form to momentum". What is important to understand is that this character represents both physical momentum AND psychological momentum. So a "move" in Kung fu represents an attitude of body (weight distribution, stance, shape) and of mind (meaning, intention). With these parameters a single "move" may have many variations in terms of outward form but all converging on a single purpose in terms of action in the world.

I realise thats probably confused you more and I apologize for that. In terms of practical advice all I can do is re-iterate what Jimbo said above. Do it the way your current teacher does it. Imitation is the only way to learn at the beginning. Don't think there is a golden standard. Even the Shaolin temple is not infallible. Don't worry about the outward variations. Also focus on what Gene said, the real skill is within the "change" itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j.ouellet23

Hello Everyone,
So I am still in my first year of kung fu training (based in Urumqi, China presently, although I have studied abit at the Shaolin Temple) and I have stumbled upon an issue with variations in training and forms. I have encountered this with Wu Bu Quan, Lian Huan Quan and with Jiu Jie Bian training where different instructors have variations in their technique (slightly different footwork, variations on open palms or fists for different parts of the form.)

I am wondering what is the polite way to highlight to someone that you recognize that they are teaching you one way, but that you have also seen it done another way. I am starting to get very frustrated because I am attempting to understand the variations, but it means practicing a few different ways, which annoys the instructors. I mean I feel like what I learned at the Shaolin Temple is probably correct, but I also want to be respectful to other instructors. I also encounter a language barrier which does not help the situation.

Any advice would be appreciated :)

---

Training basics in CMA is lacking today but based on my limited experioence with shuaijiao and the proper orientation, mush of the grappling, wrestling, etc a good foundation can always supplement and even show "techniques" showcased in taolu All that I am saying is that even Mongolian wrestling is a far better martial discipline if your goal is conditiioning and real world application. Waiting for kungfu training is like waiting for Godot, a never ending illusion!..

Thank you everyone for the advice :)