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Originally Posted by
Bacon
No my beef is that you can do other things that will condition AND increase combative skill. If you do 15 minutes of iron palm that Time could be better spent elsewhere unless you have empirical evidence to the contrary.
I've done iron body (forearm and shin) and have empirical evidence that it works. That was 10+ years ago, though.
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You show me IP/IB practitioners who have won in Muay Thai or MMA, and I don't mean any folks who've cross trained.
That doesn't make sense. IP and IB aren't fighting styles. MMA and Muay Thai guys get good body conditioning from their training. Some people don't have access to that and may do IB in the meantime.
Most MMA events don't have palm strikes so I don't know about IP.
Maybe the person just wants to break bricks as a skill. That's cool. To each his own.
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no I just have a huge dislike for folks who claim 'x' works when no practitioners of 'x' have ever won any competition of note.
A valid argument for martial arts styles.
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I like, sanda and shuai jiao because their training clearly works and that is because it is always based on effective technique and training against resistant opponents.
Even wing chun and mantis because they can be effective when they fulfill the above two conditions.
Again, IP and IB aren't fighting styles.
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There just isn't any evidence that iron palm or iron body as trained in CMAs is necessary or beneficial to the development of a fighter.
Sure they are. When I was doing iron forearm and iron shin, I could deliver and accept hard strikes without pain.
That's not to say I might not have gotten the same level of conditioning if I was training MMA at the time. I'm only saying that what I did worked as far as forearm and shin conditioning is concerned.
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If you can bring empirical evidence or a slew of IP/IB practitioners who have been successful in high level full contact competition without cross training in things like boxing, muay Thai, bjj, kickboxing, wrestling, sanda, shuai jiao, etc.,which are clearly fairly successful by themselves, then I may recant my statements. But I don't think that will be forthcoming any time soon.
IP/IB don't claim to make effective fighters. They claim to condition the body to deliver and accept blows without damage. And they do that.
You can be very conditioned and still suck at fighting.
IB is just one form of body conditioning. Getting punched during sparring by your MMA training partner will probably have a similar effect as hitting yourself with iron body bags. Different path, same goal.
Now, if a style claims that it makes effective fighters, then by all means apply your logic to it. If a style has no champion fighters in MMA venues, doesn't train against resisting opponents, etc., then it's probably not a very effective style. But IP and IB are not fighting styles.
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Or even any empirical studies done on IP/IB training.
Wolff's law (as far as bone conditioning goes. I'm not talking about the other stuff).
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Dale, if you can get a university to complete a satisfactory study on IP or IB and show that it actually has significantly greater effect over standard training methods which do the same thing I'll eat my words, buy your herbs, and start the IP/IB training.
Dude I support your cynicism and realism but I think you're going the wrong way here with your IP/IB argument.
IP and IB do condition the body. They don't make you a great fighter, they just allow you to deliver harder strikes without pain and with a reduced risk of taking damage yourself. And that's all the claim to do.
It's like bench pressing. Does bench pressing a lot of weight make you an awesome fighter? No. But all else being equal, you will probably be a better fighter if you can bench more weight because you'll be able to generate more tension and be able to strike harder.
IP/IB are tools, not fighting styles. I'm sure there are plenty of people who do IB/IP who suck at fighting.
Back when I was doing IB I had pretty good conditioning but I sucked at fighting because I wasn't training against resisting opponents.