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Greetings:
Is it best to have a foundation in strength training before studying a style, where you refine that strength?
or
Is it best to study the style and then further develop one's abilities with strength training?
or
Do both concurrently?
or
Allow strength and skill to evolve naturally with consistent practice?
mickey
There is general strength training and specific strength training.
General strength training should be done apart from MA training while specific strength training ( example would be specialized grip work for tiger style kung fu) should be done while doing the style.
Ideally you would like to be strong and healthy enough BEFORE BUT that isn't a must.
There is much to be said about developing strength training in conjunction with MA training.
Of course this isn't an either/or thing so it ends up being what is best for the individual, just like it was done traditionally.
Greetings,
I have found that people who have a foundation in strength training tended to fare better when going into martial disciplines. They are not wiped out by the exercise component of the style and their strength tends to help them fare better when sparring: they are ready to give and take.
mickey
It can also depend on what age you start. I was first exposed to MA training as a young kid, and few young kids, even ones who are serious about MA, will have an extensive strength training background. When we did strengthening exercises in class, I thought they were just something to suffer through before or after the 'good stuff' like bag work and sparring. I got really serious about strength training at 15 when I got the wind completely knocked out of me by a kick during a sparring match. Then I became obsessed with it, especially core strengthening, for many years.
Even back when I was into pumping iron regularly, though, I became stronger and more solid and defined, but never developed the 'fitness magazine' look. Probably don't have the genetics for it. The rest were body weight exercises. Yes, strength training makes a big difference, but you also need aerobic and anaerobic conditioning to go with it. I've seen some muscle guys gas out pretty quickly during sparring if they lack stamina.
Ideally, though, I think that SR summed it up just right.
Greetings,
Thank you for your responses. Though sanjuro ronin answered the correct, I was looking for biases and justifications for them.
My own approach to fitness was through skipping rope, stretching and body weight exercise. Weight training was very light and was done to increase speed. I did not know much about strength training because I went to the wrong people for advice: pencil necks. I got the "weight training is bad for the heart" and the "untrained muscle turns to fat" indoctrinations. Yet, when one of my sisters would whip herself into incredible shape with a 25 pound dumbbell, still, I did not know how she did it: that is pencil neck brainwashing for you. I found myself perpetually overtrained and sore. I am very lucky to be alive. With the knowledge that I have today. I would have seriously developed my strength with weight training.
While I did enjoy skipping rope, it never gave me the carry over that I read about: 10 minutes jumping rope equals 30 minutes of jogging.
mickey
I'm sure the while 10min skipping equates to 30mins jogging rubbish came about via a quote from Bruce lee, it has no scientific validity. The heart and the lungs are dumb muscles they don't care how you train them they respond to the stimulus the training places on them, that can ne jogging, sprints, be circuits, skipping etc doesn't matter its heart rate reached and time under load that's important not the exercise,
As for strength first id say in the old days people who took up martial arts would be fit and strong from a lifetime of manual labour, these days most aren't so it pays to build a base either before or at the start of your training
I also never understood the "10 minutes of skipping rope is equal to 30 minutes of jogging." I used to skip rope for up to 20 minutes or more, and by itself it never equalled alternating days of distance and hill running with days emphasizing wind sprints. Doing both running and skipping was better, but it's still different from 'fighting endurance'.
I was probably lucky, because my Kenpo teacher in the 70s emphasized a lot on strength training and conditioning. His background also included wrestling and boxing, so that certainly was a factor.
Edit to add:
Frost is correct in that in the past, most MAists were already strong from daily labor. My dad grew up on a farm, and when he took up Judo in his youth, he already had that freaky farmer's strength. He did blue-collar labor all his life. He never touched a weight set, but had muscles almost the rest of his life, until his health problems later. He was one of those whose life of labor would have made weight training unnecessary for him.
In most case civilian MA were done by peasants and tradespeople, so "general strength" was not an issue ( typically).
Military MA were taught to soldiers, so their general strength and fitness was also already addressed.
The only time general strength was an issue was when dealing with aristocrats or the scholarly.
The oldest MA training manuals always had some sort of general and specific ST and, typically, they were done in this way:
General moderate strength and conditioning.
Specific strength and conditioning
Limb and body "forging" of some sorts.
What we need to remember is that the training regime, when not done in a large group like the military, was CUSTOMIZED to the individuals ability and "schedule".
I prefer to set up my goal first and then to find a proper path to reach it. If I want to develop a certain technique, I'll try to understand what kind of strength that I'll need to make that technique work.
For example, if I want to develop "arm drag single leg", I will need to have
1. finger grabbing strength,
2. arm dragging strength,
3. leg pulling strength,
4. shoulder pushing strength.
I then look for what kind of weight equipments that can help me to develop those strength. I can come up weight equipment such as:
1. finger grabbing strength - iron balls bag throwing, ...
2. arm dragging strength - weight pulley, ...
3. leg pulling strength - single head weight bar, ...
4. shoulder pushing strength - striking dummy, ...
After you have used all those equipment, you may find out that you have also developed your "general strength" at the same time and you no longer need to go to your gym and "pump iron" any more. This way, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
Here is an example to use "single head weight bar" to develop "leg pulling strength".
Attachment 9589
Interesting in regards to skipping vs jogging. I've always been told the opposite: jogging is some magical exercise that grants unlimited fighting endurance and skipping, while beneficial for footwork, was not a worthwhile endurance exercise. For me, jogging screws up my joints (ankles, knees, hips, back, and neck) whereas jumprope doesn't. I just can't jog with the frequency that I can skip rope, so it never made a whole bunch of sense to me, but I still always felt bad about it because of all the comments.
I also liked elliptical cross trainer on a high resistance setting, which to me was a bit like a versaclimber. Here too, I was always told it was useless and nowhere near the benefits of the magical exercise that is jogging. There are highly thought of muay thai articles that have the actual title "Can't Jog, Can't do Muay Thai".
I think for big guys, walking's a better substitute for jogging, with maybe another cardio exercise that gets the heart rate up for 30+ min as well.
....
In regards to strength I think I'm on the same page with everyone else.
RE: skipping:
The better you get at skipping, the less of a workout it is.
Boxer do it because it breaks up the monotony of running and gives you a nice and relaxed warm up or cool down.
Helps with foot work a bit too.
It is not better than jogging per say since steady state cardio is what it is regardless of what you may be doing.
That said, you can make skipping rope harder and more challenging in very limited space and you can't do that with running.
Ever jumped with a Thai rope? Hard to make one of those easy hehe
I think skipping barefoot helps to keep you from falling into lazy habits - especially barefeet with one of those thick, heavy Thai ropes (or as I refer to them: "the toe-breakers").
As far as making it harder: yeah, we usually do sprints - either throughout the round or the last minute.
Do both concurrently. That is best for keeping the student interests in the study and good progress rate.
Regards,
KC
Hong Kong
The thing I really liked about skipping were the fun 'tricks' that help hand/foot coordination and look awesome to people who don't or can't skip rope. :). It can help for 'light on your feet' types of footwork, but for myself, I never adopted a bouncing footwork in sparring.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin
Greetings,
The benefit I got from skipping rope was in my body's ability to flush out lactic acid effectively. I would got from being near exhaustion to absolutely fresh and full of energy. It was a strange thing for me to experience a third wind, a fourth wind. Another benefit was leanness.
I noticed that the more anaerobically fit I became, the harder it was to raise my heart rate into the targeted zone. I would have to intersperse skipping rope with bodyweight squats or lunges.
mickey