What is MMA'S Impact on Kung-Fu Should MMA be its' on Art Now?

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Originally Posted by jstreet

How has MMA changed or impacted Kung-Fu? There is no denying the impact UFC has had on the Martial Arts World. More and more schools offer multiple styles. I know you will have traditionalists and revisionists argue these points, but MMA has its place in the Martial Arts world, for now anyway. Does it have staying power? Should it now be its own Art? Your thoughts?

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Well, before I read any of the other folk's posts, I would like to enter my own observations about the UFC and the new MMA that seems to be a result of the UFC.

I think they have certain concepts that can be learned from, but for me, I wouldn't forsake traditional teachings to join the brand new MMA camp. Part of the reason I am interested in Kung Fu isn't about fighting at all, but includes studies of the Chinese culture, history, religion, I find all of these aspects interesting. I also take note at the fact that someone somewhere has got to remember the traditions and the history. UFC/MMA fighters do not seem to want anything much to do with the (what I have heard pro-MMA folks call) "baggage" of the traditional arts.

There is another aspect to the words "martial arts" and that aspect is contained in the the second half of the expression, that aspect is "the arts." Also known as humanities if any of you went to college, etc... The study of the civilization, culture, history, religion, even the architecture, and many other intricate things that can be found by studying traditional martial arts.

If it was just about fighting and creating a nice blood and guts brawl in an Octagon for ticket money, well then I guess I don't find very much depth in the UFC/MMA. It's sort of a "quick fix" that (to me) is rather boring intellectually. It would be good for a "jock" type, who only wants to grunt and fight, but I am interested in martial arts for more than just those things, Kung Fu is and can be a very deep and philosophical thing, and it seems like the UFC/MMA folks don't really want much to do with philosophy, religion, culture, or Asian civilization. They acknowledge a few of those aspects, but overall, are found bragging that they do what they do by shunning most of the traditional values. I think this propaganda gets them a certain amount of media attention as well. It's a sensational boast, and the media is always there to pick up on a sensational story. Whether it is real or not, it's sensational, and that's what makes headlines and publicity. And publicity draws the final result, ... ticket sales...

I think any athlete that trains to the point these folks do should be respected, but I am not one to jump on their late-1900 - early-2000's bandwagon. I am not about to forsake traditional ancient Kung Fu for this new and modern cage grappling art. To me, it has no intellectual depth, so it doesn't interest me very much at all. In fact, I believe the fights themselves (IMHO) are only a novelty that will one day soon fall out of the limelight of sensational media attention; the after-math will be a return to history, philosophy, religion, and deeper things. Men’s emotions can be stirred by watching a blood and guts fight, but the mind is more powerful than the emotions, and it will want to be fed after the emotional glimmer and glitz wears off. When the fad and trend ceases to entertain and exist, people will find themselves returning to the study of traditions and cultures and religions. That’s just what people do…

I don’t think the concept of MMA has really reinvented the wheel or anything. The Chinese art of joint locking and “seizing and control” called Chin Na was around for hundreds of years before there were submission contests in the Octagon. Grappling is nothing new, the Greeks did it, the Romans did it, and so did the Chinese. Unarmed combat is nothing new, in 1700B.C. the Greeks were doing it in sports festivals held in Crete and the Aegean islands.

What is new is that the battle can be seen live and in your living room for a few dollars on your VISA card or added to your next cable bill. The media has changed, but the fights are still the same. One man pitted against another man, in a test of wills and abilities. It’s actually been part of man’s approach to life I suppose as long as there has been a man on Earth.

What gets me, I guess, is that a certain crowd of folks will view this stuff and claim “hey looky what I found, this new and improved way of fighting.” Wrong…. It’s not new at all, in fact it’s as old as life it’s self.

Which is one more reason to study traditional history, philosophy, religion and culture….

Ok, now I've read everybody's posts, and I can add a bit more.

I do wonder about one thing... like, it just seems like there is probably a really bad-ass Shaolin Monk who trains extremely hard every day, has rarely ever been very far away from the temple, and if he were to go in the Octagon, would most likely wipe the floor with any of the American martial artists. I have been wondering that for a while, and probably there is some issue of humility or some thing that would prevent one of the Shaolin pristes from entering into a professional competition.

As far as ground fighting, we definitely work on ground fighting in our school, and we did it long before the first Octagon fight in the UFC. At the moment, I don't remember what all the fancy Chinese words were for the mount and the gaurd, but I knew about those applications from going to my Kung Fu school, not by watching Shamrock and Gracie tie up...

As far as what Kung Fu was invented for... someone said it is made for the battlefiled... well.... hold on a second here...

I'll have to paraphrase, because I am no expert in the history, but I thought it went something like this... there was this Buddhist teacher who came from India to teach Buddhism to the Chinese... seems like his name was Da Mo (forgive me if I can't spell)... and some how he was responsible for enlightening the monks that they needed to do execises... those exercises became combat techniques, and those combat techniques became known as Kung Fu...

No battlefield there, dude...

Now... as the story goes (and I am telling it real crappy, so please forgive me...) one time the Chinese were getting their butts kicked in (I think) Taiwan... by (I think) the Japanese... and the Chinese government called upon the Shaolin fighting monks to go to war for the government... they did, and it turned the tide of the battle on the battle field...

The monastery came before the battlefield....

The battlefield is where the Shaolin monks earned their reputation at having highly skilled fighting abilities.

It was not a game, or a sport, it was fighting... real fighting where people got hurt and got killed.

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One major comment on sport fighting as a whole.... ALL sport fighting is a fantasy fight. It is NOT a real-world, your-life-depends-on-it fight. It is a "sport" and our "code of ethics" in the (so-called) "civilized world" does not allow for maiming or killing the opponent. It doesn't matter if you are practicing MMA fighting, or Kung Fu... if you maim somebody, or kill them, you probably aren't going to be very popular in your school any more.

On the street, in a REAL fight... one where somebody is weilding a club or a knife, or worse yet, a gun, you are going to have to either back down and run away, or be ready to pull out the cork and get down to business mano a mano.

I have one observation that most likely applies to most folks who have stepped foot into a martial arts school. Most criminals aren't going to know that you have studied martial arts. In fact, they are most likely dumb enough to think that you are weak and in no way are going to put up a fight. If they are going to rob you, chances are, they are not going to be alone (they will have buddie shelping them ron you), which gives them an advantage, or they are going to have a weapon of some kind, which they think gives them an advantage. And most folks who have stepped into a martial arts school SHOULD have the guts enough to want to defend themselves. That is one thing the criminal is probably going to take for granted. They aren;t going to know that you have any skills whatsoever, so to them, you appear as merely the next victim in there life-long menace to society.

It may seem like a very bad day-dream to some, but I actually wish some idiot WOULD try to mug me someday. Because I am really curious to see what would happen when I do open this box of martial arts tricks, in a no-holds barred match on the street. I'm not talking about sport fighting, where you have to abide by rules. I'm talking about unleashing every bit of anger and emotion that I can muster into a life struggle with a really stupid criminal who is about to be taught a very hard lesson.

The collar bone is a nice target, it only takes 30lbs of pressure to break (or so they say, I've never broken one...) ... I kind of like the idea of pushing my thumbs into somebody's eyes just to see them pop out of their sockets right in front of me... now we can't exactly train for that one either, can we... and if I were to actually get my "tiger claw" hand on some guys gonads in a real-world life-or-death scrap... AFTER THAT he's probably never going to have any children, and he will be talking in a very high voice for many years to come... and that isn't something we can practice much either... and let's not forget a nice bite to the neck, arm, chest, ear, nose, leg, or anywhere else I might be able to bite some stupid criminal who is threatening my life... I'm, sure, that in a life and death struggle, if my adrenalin is flowing, I'll be trying to get them back molars involved in some sort of clamping down technique... and I've always wondered... what gives out first... do muscles and skin bust loose, or do your teeth pop out first? darn... can't train for that, either...

LOL...

You think I'm gonna stand there and give this fellow a crane's beak to the chest? Hardly... more like I'm probably going to be trying to pull his arm out of joint, mash his head into the concrete, or pound his larnyx until he's stopped breathing (oops, not traditional martial arts... oops...)

I am sort of making a joke, but then again, if any of us were in a life-and-death match in the real world, how many would fight... and how many would probably do better to run like hell? Actually, in my very first martial arts class years ago, that was the first technique out instructor told us about... the "run form"... >>> look for an exit and get the hell out of there... haha

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I think there are two things brought out in the previous posts 1) somefolks practice the martial arts becsue it is a good work out and they could care less if they ever do any full-contact sparring. There's nothing wrong with this... the world is made up of millions of individuals... and to each their own... 2) Some folks want to compete in sporting events where they use martial training (in one form or another) to face an opponent in a controlled setting, with rules, and with etiquette, and with a certain amount of civilization. I wrote the above silly bit of collar-bone breaking, gouging, biting, ball-grabbing to show you that sport fighting is just that. Sport. MMA fighting isn't even a REAL fight... it is full contact (in the sporting sense), and has many things that in some scenarios could be used in a real fight, but it is still taking place in a controlled environment, with rules. It is a SPORT...

There is a third...

Some folks have the calling to be TRUE WARRIORS. Not sport fighters, I mean modern-day warriors. For those people who are up for the challenge, and want to see true war, there is the military. In the June issue of Blackbelt Magazine, there is an article where Frank Shamrock of UFC/MMA fame is demonstrating fighting techniques to the United States Marine Corps. Now I thought that was just cool as heck. If you want a thrill, join the Marines. They'll use your martial ability, and they'll teach you some more tricks, too, like how to shoot an M-16 round into a person's chest at several hundred yards. Might not seem to like much of a martial art to some, but it takes skill to fire those weapons, and to know how to use them.

So... there is a battlefield today... and if you want the "Ultimate Fighting Challenge" go enlist in the Corps... and then you can really find out, no holds barred, what technique works, and what technique doesn't. And they even have the "run form" in the Corps, too... it's called "RETREAT"...

I guess it's all about just how far you want to take your body, and what you want to see your body do to people. The UFC fights are defintely NOT the Ultimate. I'd say taking point in the US Marine Corps recon platoon blows away anything they can cook up in the Octagon. Especially if there's a couple ten dozen bad guys waiting for you on the other side of some hill.

Any time there is a ring, or an octagon, or rules, it's just a game, but if you really want the Ultimate Fighting Challenge...

Join the Marines.....


FG

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Originally Posted by FightingGorilla

It may seem like a very bad day-dream to some, but I actually wish some idiot WOULD try to mug me someday. Because I am really curious to see what would happen when I do open this box of martial arts tricks, in a no-holds barred match on the street. I'm not talking about sport fighting, where you have to abide by rules. I'm talking about unleashing every bit of anger and emotion that I can muster into a life struggle with a really stupid criminal who is about to be taught a very hard lesson.

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Ah, yes… another fantasy foo geek who has never used his techniques against other resisting opponents, but fantasizes about what he will do against evil bad guys.

And you talk about sport fighters living in fantasy land.

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Now... as the story goes (and I am telling it real crappy, so please forgive me...) one time the Chinese were getting their butts kicked in (I think) Taiwan... by (I think) the Japanese... and the Chinese government called upon the Shaolin fighting monks to go to war for the government... they did, and it turned the tide of the battle on the battle field...

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Since you are interested in Chinese history, maybe instead of getting your “history” from martial arts myths, you should take some Asian studies courses to learn real history.

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Originally Posted by Fu-Pow

Funny how there are like 300 styles of kung fu and very few of them have ANY groundfighting. Now why do you suppose that is? :o

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Because they are striking styles. Striking styles usually don't have groundfighting. Only grappling styles have groundfighting.

For whatever reason, combative sytems have traditionally gravitated towards either striking or grappling. Striking styles generally don't have grappling and groundfighting, and grappling styles don't generally have striking.

MMA is the only system that contains all the elements of striking, grappling and groundfighting.

As far as "battlefield" arts, most cultures in the pre-firearms era recognized that grappling and groundfighting played roles in combat and needed to be trained.

The Mongols developed Mongolian wrestling.
The Europeans had catch-as-catch-can and a variety of other wrestling sytems.
The Greeks and Romans recognized the importance of grappling in included them in a variety of athletic games.
Styles of grappling were developed in India, Japan, Turkey, Iran, Sweden, and Moldova.
The Vikings developed a grappling style that they used as part of their combative training.

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Originally Posted by Knifefighter

Ah, yes… another fantasy foo geek who has never used his techniques against other resisting opponents, but fantasizes about what he will do against evil bad guys.

And you talk about sport fighters living in fantasy land.


Since you are interested in Chinese history, maybe instead of getting your “history” from martial arts myths, you should take some Asian studies courses to learn real history.

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Very well put! Just what that kid needed to hear! :cool:

I love this part...

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I do wonder about one thing... like, it just seems like there is probably a really bad-ass Shaolin Monk who trains extremely hard every day, has rarely ever been very far away from the temple, and if he were to go in the Octagon, would most likely wipe the floor with any of the American martial artists. I have been wondering that for a while, and probably there is some issue of humility or some thing that would prevent one of the Shaolin pristes from entering into a professional competition.

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Originally Posted by cjurakpt

as for the whole silly argument of sport versus street - well if you train TCMA for "the street" but you never actually use your stuff "for real", and you come up against an MMA guy who is in great shape, has a varied toolbag of techniques at all ranges, and is used to trying his hardest against people who are trying their hardest, what magic wand are you whiping out here? ...

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The magic 'poke in the eye'! No need for strength, experience, or real training, the magic poke in the eye rules all! :p

You can teach MMA as an art and you can teach TMA as sport if you understand the contexts of them. MMA or rather UFC/NHB as a sport venue is relatively new in North America. Most TMA schools haven't even have a good look at this rather new kid on the block. So, it's not surprising that they would reject it. But this doesn't mean that people are not taking notes and starting to investigate and even seriously studying it in order to incorporate it. You don't have to draw a line between the two if you so choose.

The problem is that it is very hard to be a self taught TMAist due to the enormous information database besides the supposedly practical delivery system but it's relatively easy to be a self taught MMAist because it's been streamlined into primarily a sport venue - the octagon or the ring is the canvas of the MMA artist, the blood and sweat are his paint. One of the reasons for the difficulty of conversion is the "bagage" of TMA. pride and prejudice are the hurdles to overcome for the "traditionalist" to mend the almost dysfunctional delivery system that they pride themselves on.

Anyway when it comes down to a real self defense situation, neither MMA or TMA can guarantee victory nor can either gives you an edge. The best they can do is to give you the confidence and courage that you will be able to defense yourself intelligently and hopefully make it out in one piece. Knowing when to fight or flight and never froze on the critical fractions of a second, is enough to determine whether you live to fight another day.

Just some thoughts

Mantis108

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Originally Posted by cjurakpt

which seems to contradict the "generally" qualifier above;

so which is it?

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Traditionally, styles (at least the ones that train live against resisiting opponents) have tended to emphasize either striking or grappling. I am not counting the styles that train the infamous "too deadly" pretend techniques. These styles claim they have it all, but really don't have anything.

I'm not sure why this has tended to be the case, considering one of the oldest systems of unarmed combat is Greek Pankration, which included striking, grappling and groundfighting.

MMA has brought back the original philosophy of incorporating all elements into unarmed combat.

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Originally Posted by cjurakpt

I'm sorry - what is up with that? has anyone ever tried to poke someone in the eye who doesn't want to be poked in the eye? it's a small target that is highly mobile - how do they train this? and do they realilze that the nervous system is hardwired to jerk the head away when something is about to hit the eye? I mean, if your training was like trying to catch a fly while someone was hitting your arms with a brromstick, ok, maybe you could transfer that skill - but contemporary motor learning reasearch shows unequivocally that the nvironmental context within which you trrain has a great influcence on your ability to replicate that skill and also to transfer it to a fdifferent one - in other words, if you never train trying to really dig your fingers into someone's eyes, you won't just spontaneously manifest it: the only way you could train that is in 2 parts: 1) trying to lightly tap someone on the eye with your finger who is trying to not let you do that; 2) trying to hit something "eye-like" as hard as you can that is moving really fast - then you have to combine those two skill sets into one in a high pressure novel situation with an extraordinaryilly high level of contextual interference (someone trying to take you out)...

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Um...yeah...that was kinda my point....

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Originally Posted by mantis108

but it's relatively easy to be a self taught MMAist because it's been streamlined into primarily a sport venue -

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LOL!!!
No it's not.
It's much easier to be a self-taught CMA practioner if you are not going to be competing, sparring, or fighting against others.

A self-taught MMA fighter will quickly have his a$$ handed to him. That's why all accomplished MMA fighters train under good coaches with tough teams and skilled training partners..

MMA like any martial sport is teamwork. It is a team sport. What I mean by self taught is that you can get martials (ie books, video, equipments, etc...) and get a reasonably good idea of how MMA's delivery system works. You can go to seminars to get first hands experience as well. Not all TMA style would accomodate that.

Now, being a TMA fundamental hot head is just as bad as being a MMA elitist snob, my friend. I understand you wish to drive home the point that professional MMA is hardwork and hard investment and I agreed wholeheartedly. So does professional TMA. Everybody works towards perfection from their perspective. If MMA professional is the thing for you, by all means be passionate about it. But please don't treat everyone else like idiots when it comes to the subject of MMA. Most in TMA may be less informed than you but once they are informed about MMA, well you tell me what's going to happen. :cool:

I happened to like MMA and come to a limited understanding thus developed a respect of it by way of my background in the style of Praying Mantis Kung Fu which is drills and applications oriented. I have attended BJJ/Sambo seminars and exchange views with boxing coaches, Ju Jitsu stylists, etc. Again I like it but it doesn't take away what I have done in Kung Fu. In fact, it gets me further down a path where I can see harmony between MMA and TMA. So...

Mantis108

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Originally Posted by Knifefighter

Because they are striking styles. Striking styles usually don't have groundfighting. Only grappling styles have groundfighting.

For whatever reason, combative sytems have traditionally gravitated towards either striking or grappling. Striking styles generally don't have grappling and groundfighting, and grappling styles don't generally have striking.

MMA is the only system that contains all the elements of striking, grappling and groundfighting.

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I will, with respect, tend to disagree. Most martial arts systems ORIGINALLY had a mixture of striking and grappling, if by "grappling" we mean stand up to throw and trip. Most original systems, based upon "battlefield" prejudice omitted ground grappling from their program

Classical Japanese Ju Jitsu had striking and trips/throws/takedowns but little ground work. Ground work came later, after the introduction of firearms in Japan made jujitsu less a practice of an active army and more the activity of local "toughs" and used for local brawls, challenges, and "self defense"

IE, ground grappling is more an aspect of PERSONAL combat, not large unit combat on a battlefield. It is in some respects sort of pathetic that TCMA has held onto this bias, as clearly it is no longer for large unit battlefield combat

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Originally Posted by Knifefighter

As far as "battlefield" arts, most cultures in the pre-firearms era recognized that grappling and groundfighting played roles in combat and needed to be trained.

The Mongols developed Mongolian wrestling.

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Neither "Boke" (Mongolian "sport wrestling" used in festivals) nor "Cilnem" (ie combat wrestling used in combat, such as against Yue Fei's army in the north) have much if any ground grappling. Cilnem is more precisely designed to put the opponent on the ground in a vulmerable position for "finish" with the finish certainly NOT limited to empty hand techniqe. IE, throw them then STAB THEM

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Originally Posted by Knifefighter

The Greeks and Romans recognized the importance of grappling in included them in a variety of athletic games.

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If you read Poliakoff's Combat Sports in the Ancient World you will see that there was a certain debate about the combat/battlefield utility of wrestling, specifically the ground aspect....

But again, wse aren't talking abotu large unit tactics here, ie battle fields. we are talking about personal combat