Is anyone else paying attention to the YMAA Retreat Center program?

I believe that following one's dreams is a good thing. However, IMO 100K for a 10-year KF course is a LOT much. If the disciples who come into it are rich, or trust-fund kids from rich families who want to follow their KF dream, that's reasonable. But if one is looking to make a career out of promoting KF, it's a hard sell. If one pays and studies to become (for example) a doctor and stays with the course, there's a very reasonable likelihood that he/she will get a job and get a return on their investment. But IMO it would be very hard to get a return on one's investment of spending 5 or 10 years in a secluded, monastic KF program, even one as extensive as this one reputedly is supposed to be. It's not as if the general public is clamoring to learn traditional KF. So if one's goal is to become a big-time KF teacher/promoter, I wish them luck, but it's going to be hard, IMO. Most places I'm aware of are MMA territory (including BJJ, MT, etc.). Now it seems that almost everybody and his/her grandmother wants to be/thinks of him/herself as a professional 'cage fighter'. The non-MMA that still seems in demand is Krav Maga. Most 'traditional' MA schools like karate now (seem to) cater almost exclusively to the kiddie crowd. Traditional KF is a tough sell and at the bottom of the list.

After over 4 decades in MA, I haven't spent even a fraction of 100K.

I've long been curious about how much the teacher/owner of the retreat school was actually present and teaching on a day to day basis. And at times when he had to be away, were arrangements made for other paid and qualified instructors to guide the students? These are very important issues, I think.

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Greetings,

It is always a good thing to have a place where you can really go deep with your practice. Sometimes your school will not suffice; sometimes, your home will not suffice. What Yang Jwing Ming has not considered with his YMAA Retreat Center is he can widen the scope of opportunity to others. That is, he can offer the space to other schools and disciplines who would willingly pay for the opportunity to take their own students to such a place to train intensely for a couple of weeks. He can offer up the place to yoga practitioners, dancers, people on that spiritual path who could enjoy the solitude the place may offer. To put it simply, there is MUCH money to be made if Yang Jwing Ming would think about the needs of others. He could attach the condition that his students could participate without paying a fee, offering them opportunity to see and experience other things, thereby, enriching their practice.


mickey

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Originally Posted by mickey

Greetings,

It is always a good thing to have a place where you can really go deep with your practice. Sometimes your school will not suffice; sometimes, your home will not suffice. What Yang Jwing Ming has not considered with his YMAA Retreat Center is he can widen the scope of opportunity to others. That is, he can offer the space to other schools and disciplines who would willingly pay for the opportunity to take their own students to such a place to train intensely for a couple of weeks. He can offer up the place to yoga practitioners, dancers, people on that spiritual path who could enjoy the solitude the place may offer. To put it simply, there is MUCH money to be made if Yang Jwing Ming would think about the needs of others. He could attach the condition that his students could participate without paying a fee, offering them opportunity to see and experience other things, thereby, enriching their practice.


mickey

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Not a bad idea, mickey. Actually, that sounds a bit like what the Esalen Institute in Big Sur was. I highly doubt that Yang would go for that. Unless, perhaps, he reaches a point where nobody new is signing up for his program.

A BIG problem I see with his isolationist method is application ability. IME, it's ****-near impossible to become really effective by shutting out the world and only training with, or sparring against, the same methods with your same classmates. Without outside exposure to different people and their different ways of fighting, growth becomes difficult, and their 10 years of training may not equal one year of training on the outside. Because in such an isolated environment, it's easy to become stagnant and/or complacent/overconfident. This is a big deal during a student's developmental stages.

Of course, if their focus is strictly on the art (gong, forms, etc.) and culture, then that may not be a concern to them. However, if the purpose of the program is to show that TCMA has greater depth, and can hold its own with the rest of the more popular martial arts, traditional AND 'modern', it SHOULD be a concern.

Greetings Jimbo,

I agree with you. That is why opening up the school to other schools would enable the students to experience other things. Yes, that would include other methods of fighting. The students would only gain from that kind of experience. The ten year model is a demanding one and requires a level of sacrifice that few are willing to make. The step that Yang Jwing Ming took was a bold one and it should encourage us to try to find better ways to achieve the goal he envisioned.

mickey

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Originally Posted by mickey

Greetings Jimbo,

I agree with you. That is why opening up the school to other schools would enable the students to experience other things. Yes, that would include other methods of fighting. The students would only gain from that kind of experience. The ten year model is a demanding one and requires a level of sacrifice that few are willing to make. The step that Yang Jwing Ming took was a bold one and it should encourage us to try to find better ways to achieve the goal he envisioned.

mickey

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How about taking mma lesson for 150 dollars a month instead of peasing away your dads money?

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I believe that following one's dreams is a good thing. However, IMO 100K for a 10-year KF course is a LOT much.

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Sheeeiiiiit. For that kind've scratch, you could be a live in student of one of the top names in BJJ, earn a black-belt, and then open a school in any mid-size or bigger city and charge all kinds of money for instruction.

You're right - the ROI on Yang's endeavor just isn't worth it.

I feel sorry for the kids in Deng Feng and Shaolin. That's their full-time education and life. How small it is in a big world of opportunity. Dr. Yang seems to forget his own path and that's probably why he's disappointed. Martial arts should compliment your life, not be your life. Some of the best martial artists I know have some type of graduate degree. I think that's more indicative of a type of personality that one would want. Someone who's looking to isolate themselves on a mountain to immerse themselves in an esoteric martial art for 10 years... that person probably has issues. Deep deep issues.

Agreed.

Apparently, Yang does not realize that such an extremely sequestered life to totally immerse in MA is unnatural. People have certain reasonable, natural inclinations, and suppression of them creates obsession. When there is no outlet, most people will rebel in some way, and ultimately leave the program. Then what? Maybe now they're completely turned off about kung fu and either give up MA altogether, or go into a completely different MA. Not a smart way to promote the benefits of a kung fu lifestyle.

Perhaps Yang himself is a control freak and seeks to have 100% control without any input from others.

What would be embarrassing is if a 10-year graduate from Yang's program decided to 'play hands' with some aggressive kid with one month of boxing training and finds out his 10 years never prepared him for that in any way whatsoever. I'm really trying not to be so negative about it, but something like that is a very possible scenario.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Agreed.

Apparently, Yang does not realize that such an extremely sequestered life to totally immerse in MA is unnatural. People have certain reasonable, natural inclinations, and suppression of them creates obsession. When there is no outlet, most people will rebel in some way, and ultimately leave the program. Then what? Maybe now they're completely turned off about kung fu and either give up MA altogether, or go into a completely different MA. Not a smart way to promote the benefits of a kung fu lifestyle.

Perhaps Yang himself is a control freak and seeks to have 100% control without any input from others.

What would be embarrassing is if a 10-year graduate from Yang's program decided to 'play hands' with some aggressive kid with one month of boxing training and finds out his 10 years never prepared him for that in any way whatsoever. I'm really trying not to be so negative about it, but something like that is a very possible scenario.

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if I had 100k I would hire mike Tyson to coach me for 1 day. 1 day with mike Tyson beats 10 years with this guy. I wouldn't train with him for ten years for free.

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Originally Posted by bawang

if I had 100k I would hire mike Tyson to coach me for 1 day. 1 day with mike Tyson beats 10 years with this guy. I wouldn't train with him for ten years for free.

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Good post. Although I'd rather have the 100K than to be coached even by Mike Tyson.

I do believe that Yang Jwing-Ming has truly legit skills, even if I'm not interested in his teachings or his styles. I just don't believe they're worth 100K and 10 years of confinement.

I met a guy who went there for shorter periods like month long or semester long stays and for what it's worth he said that you get a way different perspective on how to do a technique when you work it for 8 hours a day. Second, I know a guy who took out a student loan to study with a master for 5 years for a similar amount. Well he says he did, but I can't figure out how he fudged the paperwork to do it. But that's pretty much what someone would have to do unless they were a master grant writer and get the grant to study at the retreat center as part of something like cultural anthropology ha ha.

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Is anyone else paying attention to the YMAA Retreat Center program?

This piece is in conjunction with 'Challenges in Preserving Traditions in Modern Times: Lessons learned from a multi-year martial arts training program' By Michelle Lin in our WINTER 2019 issue.